View Full Version : to much air?
reds_21
03-05-2007, 6:50 AM
i have aquick question. i hae a 10 gallon tank (freshwater). is it possible to have too much air in the tank? i have a couple "ornaments that put off a shower of air bubbles along with the undergravel filter and was wondering if its possible to provide too much air?
im thinking not, but i figured i'd ask.
thank you in advance for your response.
RiVerfishgirl
03-05-2007, 7:55 AM
Unless you have so many bubbles that your fish can't find a calm spot to swim you're fine.
It would be EXTREMELY difficult to put too much air in a tank from decorations that produce bubbles.
Too much air for what?
Plants don't like too much air.
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 10:21 AM
Too much air for what?
Plants don't like too much air.
And what is your reasoning behind that?
reds_21
03-05-2007, 11:44 AM
no, theres no that many bubbles that there isn't a calm spot for the fish. i don't have live plants so i think im ok on that part. besides the wondering,,,,,all the fish seem content :)
Madcrawdad
03-05-2007, 12:58 PM
too much oxygen is always better than not enough... the only time too much aeration/surface agitation becomes an issue is when you have a planted tank and you're injecting CO2. It's my understanding that you lose some of the injected CO2 through increased surface agitation
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 1:57 PM
too much oxygen is always better than not enough... the only time too much aeration/surface agitation becomes an issue is when you have a planted tank and you're injecting CO2. It's my understanding that you lose some of the injected CO2 through increased surface agitation
Ok, I thought you were saying that it is always bad, not just when you are injecting CO2, and that isn't correct.
Madcrawdad
03-05-2007, 2:08 PM
Ok, I thought you were saying that it is always bad, not just when you are injecting CO2, and that isn't correct.
that wasn't me....that was didy
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 2:11 PM
that wasn't me....that was didy
Oh, haha. Well, thanks for clarifying. :dance2:
The question was, "is it possible to have too much air in the tank?"
The correct answer is "yes."
Too much can kill fish, create ph issues and harm plants.
From:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html
How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants on a Student Budget
AIR PUMPS/BUBBLERS
Don't use them. Any fresh air contacting the water will deplete the CO2 dissolved in the water to very low levels. The plants produce enough oxygen to last all night even for most tightly sealed aquaria. However, if your fish are gasping at the surface in the morning (I've never seen this) then turn on an airstone ONLY AT NIGHT when the plants don't use CO2.
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 4:51 PM
The question was, "is it possible to have too much air in the tank?"
The correct answer is "yes."
Too much can kill fish, create ph issues and harm plants.
From:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html
How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants on a Student Budget
AIR PUMPS/BUBBLERS
Don't use them. Any fresh air contacting the water will deplete the CO2 dissolved in the water to very low levels. The plants produce enough oxygen to last all night even for most tightly sealed aquaria. However, if your fish are gasping at the surface in the morning (I've never seen this) then turn on an airstone ONLY AT NIGHT when the plants don't use CO2.
That is both poppycock and nonsense. Air stones do not always drive out CO2 unless there is higher CO2 content in the water than in the air. The water surface is like a permeable membrane and molecules change across it to achieve equilibrium. So for instance, if the CO2 content in the water is higher than in the air the CO2 molecules will go across the membrane into the air in order to equalize the number of molecules on each side. Just like if there is more CO2 in the air above the water the CO2 molecules will then move into the water. Air pumps do not oxygenate the water they create surface disturbance, which acts as at catalyst increasing the amount of diffusion of molecules. This is why you don't want a lot of surface disturbance in a tank with injected CO2. This link should give you a little more insight on the general process. This wasn't some crap found on the web that happens to be one man's opinion, it is science. http://www.s-cool.co.uk/topic_quicklearn.asp?loc=ql&topic_id=1&quicklearn_id=4&subject_id=3&ebt=57&ebn=&ebs=&ebl=&elc=13
If that was the case what about good 'ol mother nature? What happens out in the real world where air just goes about freely doing whatever it pleases? Are you going to tell me now that the fish in nature are diving because of Ph swings and whatnot? What about salmon swimming upstream? That water is pretty turbulent with a lot of fast current and bubbles. They're not dead.
Once the molecules reach equilibrium they stop diffusing, unless you know something I don't.
"poppycock and nonsense"
Nahhh.. it's pretty much common knowledge that plants don't stay happy with excessive bubblers in the tank.
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 5:07 PM
"poppycock and nonsense"
Nahhh.. it's pretty much common knowledge that plants don't stay happy with excessive bubblers in the tank.
So says you where's your proof? My 5 gallon has plants and the surface has a lot of movement and they do fine.
"poppycock and nonsense"
Well the guy I quoted, from the Dept.of Physics at Univ. of CA says otherwise.
Kyohti
03-05-2007, 5:27 PM
The question was, "is it possible to have too much air in the tank?"
The correct answer is "yes."
Too much can kill fish, create ph issues and harm plants.
From:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html
How to Grow Beautiful Aquarium Plants on a Student Budget
AIR PUMPS/BUBBLERS
Don't use them. Any fresh air contacting the water will deplete the CO2 dissolved in the water to very low levels. The plants produce enough oxygen to last all night even for most tightly sealed aquaria. However, if your fish are gasping at the surface in the morning (I've never seen this) then turn on an airstone ONLY AT NIGHT when the plants don't use CO2.
So it's safe to turn off an aerator at night... but what if you don't have any live plants? What then? O.o
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 5:41 PM
"poppycock and nonsense"
Well the guy I quoted, from the Dept.of Physics at Univ. of CA says otherwise.
Hey, I'm just using logic here I don't know what that other guy is doing.
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 5:45 PM
So it's safe to turn off an aerator at night... but what if you don't have any live plants? What then? O.o
Don't worry about you know how many people use them without problems? I used them before an nothing was worse for the wear. If you are saying what I think you are, you only want to use a simple wand or something and that should be fine. Don't let people freak you out with there eccentric talk of your whole tank going crazy and everything dying. Your fish will be fine with a simple air stone.
"Don't let people freak you out with there eccentric talk of your whole tank going crazy and everything dying."
No one has made claims that an air stone will kill a tank. Once again, the question was, "is it possible to have too much air in the tank?"
Too many bubblers can cause problems.
Sorry, but you're just wrong. Any bubblers or agitation of the water surface will cause CO2 to diffuse out of the water at a faster rate, and that is not so great for the plants. Therefore, the answer to the question is "yes."
" ... but what if you don't have any live plants?"
If you don't have plants in your tank, the bubblers will not hurt them.
Rbishop
03-05-2007, 6:47 PM
To much air can kill fish, highly doubtful in a home environment.
Sammie7
03-05-2007, 6:59 PM
"Don't let people freak you out with there eccentric talk of your whole tank going crazy and everything dying."
No one has made claims that an air stone will kill a tank. Once again, the question was, "is it possible to have too much air in the tank?"
Too many bubblers can cause problems.
Sorry, but you're just wrong. Any bubblers or agitation of the water surface will cause CO2 to diffuse out of the water at a faster rate, and that is not so great for the plants. Therefore, the answer to the question is "yes."
" ... but what if you don't have any live plants?"
If you don't have plants in your tank, the bubblers will not hurt them.
Look I am done arguing with someone who can't reason logically, so I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. No need to apologize to me, for it is you who deserves the pity.
Madcrawdad
03-05-2007, 9:02 PM
To much air can kill fish, highly doubtful in a home environment.
unless of course, your fish hops out of the tank... :)
It's really a simple science concept.
Where does dissolved oxygen come from?
There are two main sources of dissolved oxygen: air and photosynthesis. Consider photosynthesis first. You probably know that photosynthesis is the fundamental biological process that uses light energy to produce sugar from carbon dioxide and water. Oxygen is a by-product of photosynthesis. Both algae (phytoplankton, seaweeds) and plants can be found in natural bodies of water. These organisms are net producers of oxygen in the daytime, but at night become net consumers of oxygen.
Now consider oxygen from the air. At the surface of the water, oxygen from the air equilibrates with oxygen dissolved in the water. This is a dynamic equilibrium: the oxygen molecules are in constant motion. At any given moment, some are leaving the water for the air, and some are leaving the air to dissolve in water. At equilibrium, there is a balance. On average, an equal number of oxygen molecules are leaving and entering the water. If the water temperature increases, the water can't hold as much oxygen as before—the water is oversaturated with oxygen. For a time, there will be more oxygen molecules leaving the water than entering it from the air. Then a new equilibrium will be reached, with less oxygen in the water than before.
Moving water has a rougher surface than still water. With more surface area in contact with air, moving water will equilibrate with air more quickly. (You'll make use of this in your experiment.) In natural situations, water can also become stratified into different layers (see the Science Buddies project Can Water Float on Water? (http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/OceanSci_p002.shtml)). For example, cold water is denser than warm water, and salt water is denser than fresh water. Can you think of ways that different layers of water might form in a lake or ocean? What do you think happens to the oxygen in a colder layer of water trapped under a warmer layer of water? (Remember that the warmer layer cannot hold as much dissolved oxygen as the colder layer. See the Variations section for a project idea on this topic.)
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/EnvSci_p014.shtml
Star_Rider
03-05-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm not sure what the point is here.
at some point the water will become saturated..using air(which is not comprised entirely of O2)
if you off gas the CO2 would you also not off gas the O2?
I believe the question was ..can you put too much air in the water.
under most situations..I don't believe so..you would have to have so much 'air' pumped in that you couldn't see the fish..in this situation I suppose you may be able to agitate the water enough to disipate the O2 or would you put too much in? I would surmise that the exchange would off set and you may be able to reach maximum 'air' saturation.
but it is interesting.
unless of course, your fish hops out of the tank... :)
good point. i got a fish once, and by mistake, instead of putting the open plasic bag in the tank, I put it on the living room floor. ( i can be a little forgetful) when i came back later, there was the fish, dead. lying on the floor surrounded by a little water and a Whole Lot of air.
I searched the web for days and finally came to understand the cause of death: Too Much Air!
so,I figure, as long as you have more air than water, you are probably ok.
The article cited by didy was discussing a planted tank. a tank designed primarily to grow plants
I think that the writer of the article therefor assumes that the CO2 content of his water will be higher than that of the air. in which case his statement could be seen as making some sense.only when it is taken out of context is it fully poppycock and nonsense.
Anyway, Not even didy's cited article suggests that "too much air" will hurt fish.
OP having a fish tank, not a 'planted tank' and not even having any live plants, the whole reference was rather :OT: .
so, IMO as long as you are not talking about an environment equivilant to my livingroom floor. (or the conditions RiVerfishgirl described) you don't need to worry a bit about "too much" air.
Mgamer20o0
03-06-2007, 1:50 AM
this isnt a planted tank so what they are talking about doesnt apply here. sorry reds_21 for the mess. i would section off a area of where the fish can have a peaceful area. if you see them staying in this area you might want to thing about cutting out some of the other air bubbles. if they look fine dont bother with it.