algae killing fish part 2

[reefscapes]

ok for those of you that have been folowing this i've been doing a bit or research on this for those of you who havent heres the deal i have a 90 gal reef that seems to be killing my fish whenever algae is scrubbed off the back of the tank i can put fish in they will do fine until i do a cleaning:huh: then they go into spasms bolting about breathing rapidly to their death. i have taken a sample of algae to my local store where they looked at it under a microscope. The guy says he sees alot of multi cell fungus in the algae. also looked at the dead fishes gills it appears whatever is causing this is basically melting their gills causing asphixiation and death. Dont Tell Me This is my pad because i am most certain it is not as i use it alot of different tanks. Somebody said something about hydrogen sulfide being produced in the substrate. how can you test for this?? also i have an ample amount of snails and crabs also filtered by a rio 2500 at only 2 feet of head being that the filter is on the back complemented by a maxi jet 1200 for added circulation. NOW does anybody Know of a toxic fungus?? if so how do i rid from tank without completly taking it apart HELP!!

[m007]

I remember your thread and I was the one who suggested the hydrogen suphide and doubted that your cleaning instrument was the cause. I'd bite on the part about the algae having fungus but melting gills by releasing said fungus in such a instantaneous fashion is a bit of a stretch. Scrubbing the algae is the COD of the fish which is abnormal. The algae is absorbing something very toxic and by scrubbing it you are releasing it into the water killing your fish. As I previously posted -been there/got the T shirt! Bottom line is you are going to have to get the algae problem under control before you do anything else. If you have mounds of alge to scrub you have a nutrient problem. Those excess nutrients are also going to find their way into your substrate. If you have corse substrate the deeper the penetration will be. When those nutrients go into overload you end up with toxic soup. Leave it be and the algae will flourish feeding on the nutrients. Mash the algae and/or stir up the substrate and you will have fish melt down. So much for my long winded opinion.:thud: My solution, many years ago was to forget about any fish for awile. Scrubbed out every bit of algae and pulled all of the crushed coral. Performed a 50% water change. Left the live rock in. The corals were dead or close to dead. Cleaned out the sump, bought a new protein skimmer, installed a top quality phosphate remover and carbon bag and let the system run with lights. Seven days later I replaced the phosphate and carbon and 25% of the water. 7 days later another 25% water change and again 7 days later. With 1 month behind me and no algae in sight (scrubbed out any straglers along the way) I replaced the substrate with the fine variety. Live sand (which is what I have now) seems like the best option to me these days. Comes sealed in bags with water. Continued on for another 30 days 10% water changes watching my water quality and watching for any algae blooms. At the time direct sunlight was also a problem which I cured as well. The system settled and I started with the first fish. Waited a full 30 days maintaining water quality and weekly water changes. Then added some coral and waited again. Over the next year I added more fish and coral all the while watching the tank for signs of regression. Any sign of trouble I backed off. It took almost 2 years but by the time I was finished I had a 125 busting with healthy coral and fish. :) Now you could try and bandaid the tank but I think you will continue being frustrated with the losses both natural and financial. Good luck! BTW, with what I learned back then and all of the advancements today I clean 3 sides of my tank every 3 days with a mop and the back with a scraper once a month. The stuff on the back is hard green algae which my fish love to snack on.

[Germanman]

I remember your thread and I was the one who suggested the hydrogen suphide and doubted that your cleaning instrument was the cause. I'd bite on the part about the algae having fungus but melting gills by releasing said fungus in such a instantaneous fashion is a bit of a stretch. Scrubbing the algae is the COD of the fish which is abnormal. The algae is absorbing something very toxic and by scrubbing it you are releasing it into the water killing your fish. As I previously posted -been there/got the T shirt! Bottom line is you are going to have to get the algae problem under control before you do anything else. If you have mounds of alge to scrub you have a nutrient problem. Those excess nutrients are also going to find their way into your substrate. If you have corse substrate the deeper the penetration will be. When those nutrients go into overload you end up with toxic soup. Leave it be and the algae will flourish feeding on the nutrients. Mash the algae and/or stir up the substrate and you will have fish melt down. So much for my long winded opinion.:thud: My solution, many years ago was to forget about any fish for awile. Scrubbed out every bit of algae and pulled all of the crushed coral. Performed a 50% water change. Left the live rock in. The corals were dead or close to dead. Cleaned out the sump, bought a new protein skimmer, installed a top quality phosphate remover and carbon bag and let the system run with lights. Seven days later I replaced the phosphate and carbon and 25% of the water. 7 days later another 25% water change and again 7 days later. With 1 month behind me and no algae in sight (scrubbed out any straglers along the way) I replaced the substrate with the fine variety. Live sand (which is what I have now) seems like the best option to me these days. Comes sealed in bags with water. Continued on for another 30 days 10% water changes watching my water quality and watching for any algae blooms. At the time direct sunlight was also a problem which I cured as well. The system settled and I started with the first fish. Waited a full 30 days maintaining water quality and weekly water changes. Then added some coral and waited again. Over the next year I added more fish and coral all the while watching the tank for signs of regression. Any sign of trouble I backed off. It took almost 2 years but by the time I was finished I had a 125 busting with healthy coral and fish. :) Now you could try and bandaid the tank but I think you will continue being frustrated with the losses both natural and financial. Good luck! BTW, with what I learned back then and all of the advancements today I clean 3 sides of my tank every 3 days with a mop and the back with a scraper once a month. The stuff on the back is hard green algae which my fish love to snack on.

wow couldnt have said anything better nice guide there m007:)
good luck too. i read your other thread back when u posted it keep us informed in how it all works out

[m007]

Thanks Germanman. Maybe someone at your U or C might have a test for hydrogen sulphide? I love to know what the Redox potential of this particular tank is before and after the algae scrubbing occurs. :idea:

[Germanman]

all ask my zoo professor if he has an idea or can direct me to a chemist. ill let u guys know

[reefscapes]

Thanks for all everyones input and help. just wanted to clarify a couple things and plans of action. The gills i shouldn't have said "melted" however this is the term that seems reasonable. all the lamellae and gill filiments were singed, not all feathery like they should have been. there was also a great deal of bacteria that had formed on them being that the fish had only been dead for about an hour. also i have a sneaking suspicion that whatever caused this is due somewhat from the addition of Chemi-clean for eradication of red slime although can find no evidence to support this.My plans are to pull all the sand and scrub as much algae (although their is not much)and do a 50% water change i've tested phosphate and its well under 1 ppm their is one fish that remains a clown of course he gets very unhappy when the others die but always comes out of it. The coral also acts strange when i notice this happen The middle of the starpolys get real big and the polyps outer area shrivels up. i will use these signs later to see if i have completley eradicated this stuff. Any other thoughts LIghts off mabey for awile? anything more about hydrogen sulphide would be helpful

[USCavalry19d]

I read over your other posts and noticed that when you were asked about your levels such as Ammonia, nitrates, nitrites you replied with:

"tank has been running for about 5 years it was moved about 3 months ago i use seachem's reef builder and calcium supplements water change every other week carbon is changed out every month use reef crystals salt seachem's phosguard when needed havent checked ammonia or nitrite but pretty sure its nonexistant. nitrate around 50ppm most my tanks run this high without a problem whatever is doing this seems to happen when either i scrub algae or turn over the sand it seems. i dont vacuum the sand but am considering doing so tank runs 80 salt at 1.020 have you heard of TOXIC algae???"

I am sorry to say but if your NitRATES are up then that means you have niTRITES and Ammonia. If you have ever heard of the Nitrogen Cycle Nitrates is the last step. Like all living creatures, fish give off waste products (pee and poo). These nitrogenous waste products break down into ammonia (NH3), which is highly toxic to most fishes. Your Ammonia levels are then broken down into Nitrites and then finally into the Nitrates which you said were at 50ppm.

Im guessing that the algae that your scraping off the glass is high in Ammonia. When you are removing the algae it is then seeping the high ammonia levels back into the water causing the stress and burning of the gills. When ever you buy a new fish and your LFS places them into one of those little plastic bags your fish will even experiance what is known as "bag burn". "Bag Burn" is caused from AMMONIA spikes in the small ammount of water in the bag. if you look at any fish removed from one of these bags you will notice their fins are even burned a little, hence the name "Bag Burn". Ammonia can and will burn the gills of fish as well. This is what will cause the fish to breath rapidly and most likely stress out. Your best bet would be to buy a test kit for the following:
Ammonia
NitRITE
NitRATE
PH
Calcium
Next step would be to check your water quality.

[m007]

VERY good point. My lengthy post was based on basic water quality being within generally exepted standards. Cleaning out the substrate and changing 50% of the water along with the water quality testing recommended by USCavalry19d is your best plan of action. If in fact your nitrates and amonia levels are high and have been so long enough to saturate the tanks algae you can be sure your substrate is full of it as well. Leaving the lights off has no value as the lights are not the source of your problem. You need to achieve proper water quality under normal operating conditions which means lights on.

[reefscapes]

yes i am very well based with the nitrogen cycle but have never heard of ammonia in algae and these levels are constantly being converted by nitrosomas and nitrobacter bacteria. also these levels would have a greater impact on coral as well. have not lost a piece and tanks full live rock with good coraline growth with generous amounts of starpolys, yellow polys, brain coral, mushrooms, button polyps etc plenty of hermits, snails, and shrimp as well that are not affected by this. shrimp are surely to die with high levels of ammonia however i will test these levels to rule out the possibility

[m007]

FYI; Hydrogen sulphide is a toxic gas produced quite often when bacteria breakdown organic matter in the absence of oxygen. This is one of the reasons why star fish can be beneficial in the marine environment as some species dig down and move through out the substrate minimizing the posibility of dead zones. This is also where ozone generators and Redox come into the picture as ozone oxidizes hydrogen sulphide, along with numerous other polutants and Redox meters indicate the oxidation potential.

[reefscapes]

is this toxic to fish only or would crustaceans be effected as well

[m007]

Which crustaceans in particular?

Here is a little info I foud on the net regarding Hydrogen sulphides effect on humans:

0.0047 ppm is the recognition threshold, the concentration at which 50% of humans can detect the characteristic rotten egg odor of hydrogen sulfide

10-20 ppm is the borderline concentration for eye irritation.

50-100 ppm leads to eye damage.

At 150-250 ppm the olfactory nerve is paralyzed after a few inhalations, and the sense of smell disappears, often together with awareness of danger,

320-530 ppm leads to pulmonary edema with the possibility of death.

530-1000 ppm causes strong stimulation of the central nervous system and rapid breathing, leading to loss of breathing;

800 ppm is the lethal concentration for 50% of humans for 5 minutes exposition (LC50).

Concentrations over 1000 ppm cause immediate collapse with loss of breathing, even after inhalation of a single breath. :eek:

Considering mamals have a greater ability to filter toxins you can imagine the effects on aquatic life forms.

The ammonia nitrate and nitrite issues are also important to remember. The toxicity of ammonia and water in low concentrations does not usually cause problems for humans and other mammals, as a specific mechanism exists to prevent its build-up in the bloodstream. Fish and amphibians lack this mechanism, as they can usually eliminate ammonia from their bodies by direct excretion. Ammonia even at dilute concentrations is highly toxic to aquatic animals. I won't bore you with what I found on nitrates or nitrites but to say you don't want them in your tank.

[Mr.Firemouth]

Phosphates well below 1ppm is high for me. Try an iron oxide resin and change it every 3 weeks. Make sure that all water used for system is RO/DI water. Add activated carbon to the system also. Change it every 30 days!
You can use both medias in a phos-reactor.

I have never experienced a fish death like yours. Micro algae should not kill fish. Also, it is strange that one fish would survive. Do you experience any odors when you cleaned the system. Did you do any nitrate testing? Did you see any discoloration in the sand bed? Are you experiencing any new coraline growth?

A large patch(very large) of cyano-bacteria slime algae can cause fish deaths. If this is what you are scrubbing it should then be cleaned while siphoning the water to a waste bucket.

I can help more if you answer some more questions, for now I am guessing.

[Germanman]

this is a kinda "duh" question but u dont dip ur testing equipment into the tank by any chance do u?

[reefscapes]

so i finally figured out what was happening i took a sample of this algae op to CSU and had a zoologist identify this stuff as Amphidinium Carterae, a dinoflagellate that produces neurotoxin most likely was on rock since setup and was allowed to bloom givin proper nutrients. I think that this tank has been overfed by the owner thus leading to a phosphate problem although it is covered up by the large amount of microalgae present. my thoughts are to drain tank, remove fish and scrub most of this stuff off. refill and leave the lights out as this particular strain is photosynthetic. run phosguard, polyfilters, and carbon also raise ph up to 8.6 as i hear that helps with dinos. perform 25% water changes weekly until i can see no trace of this stuff. hope this works if anybody has ever encountered anything like this any more knowledge is always helpful

[Germanman]

so i finally figured out what was happening i took a sample of this algae op to CSU and had a zoologist identify this stuff as Amphidinium Carterae, a dinoflagellate that produces neurotoxin most likely was on rock since setup and was allowed to bloom givin proper nutrients. I think that this tank has been overfed by the owner thus leading to a phosphate problem although it is covered up by the large amount of microalgae present. my thoughts are to drain tank, remove fish and scrub most of this stuff off. refill and leave the lights out as this particular strain is photosynthetic. run phosguard, polyfilters, and carbon also raise ph up to 8.6 as i hear that helps with dinos. perform 25% water changes weekly until i can see no trace of this stuff. hope this works if anybody has ever encountered anything like this any more knowledge is always helpful
wow nice pin there!
yea they can cause that, a UV sterilizer will zap them as well. also "cleaner clams" will eat and accumulate the poison and are usually immune. good luck man! hope u can win this. :)
also never dip the test vials in ur tank...ever if if u steam clean them...not worth the risk lol