Undergravel Filters

thehamburglar

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Mar 15, 2007
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I've had a SW tank for a while now. My tank got wiped a few years ago and I gave up. Just set it up in my new house, its a 60 gallon Hex tank. My Step father set it up for me. The problem is he used Crushed coral and an Undergravel filter set up.

He drilled a hole in the bottom of the tank for the canister filter, then drilled holes in the side for return from the canister. So water is sucked through the gravel then brought back on the side of the tank.

I guess my question is Can i use my current setup with sand? Or am i going to have to make a new set up?
 
personally, i dont think there is a place in a marine aquarium for either crushed coral or UGF ( undergravel filters )...Crushed coral traps detrius really bad, i dont believe it can buffer the pH like aragonite sand and will cause issues with high nitrates...

Niko
 
You could plug off the bulkhead in the bottom of the tank and use the holes in the sides for a closed loop or for your sump plumbing, But other than that I agree with Niko.
 
Back when I started, undergravel filters were the norm, and I never had any trouble. I preferred the prefiltered reverse flcw UGF but most around here just had the normal UGF.
Also, I never had a nitrate problem and it's probably because even with UGF there are anorexic zones that work, and, with quality live rock in the tank as well, everything worked well.
The main problem as I see it with the set up is the cannister filter which needs to be cleaned out a minimum of once a week but preferrably twice a week.
I don't know any way you could use sand without putting a retaining screen of some kind over the plate to keep sand from going down through.
I would leave the substrate and take all the filter material out of the cannister filter and replace it with live rock rubble.
 
First of all it's anaerobic not anorexic which would be an eating disorder. Second of all your statement about that area is compleatly and utterly false. Anaerobic areas are those without oxygen if you are constantly pulling water that has oxygen in it thru the area then is is an aerobic area as there is the prenence of oxygen. This is what helps to cause the nitrate problem with CC and UGF's there is no anaerobic area except in the rocks to convert nitrates into nitrogen gasses which float to the top of the tank and expell themselfs at the surface.

I find it very disturbing that you would hand out this kind of information if you do not truely understand what anaerobic areas are or what they do. This is the type of thing that leads people to have problems with their tanks. I agree that CC and UGF's USE to be the norm, BUT there is good and solid reason that they are not the norm NOW, that is because they both cause PROBLEMS!!!!
 
Penums are the only "good" way to go when trying to create an anaerobic area in aquariums. they are still on debate but have turned out many excellent results...as for undergravel filters they are great for a simple freshwater setup...but in marine most people cant , or dont care fro, taking the efforts to make it work...some people can but why make it harder than it needs to be? as for curshed coral its the same and personal preference. Rayjay ur methods arnt the norm but they obviously work well for u...even though u had several die offs...but not all people can handle complex alternative methods...i am usually open to many different views but ur tanks, although amazing, are even hard for me to understand how they work. they are obviously years of work and trial and error. but for the easiest, simplest, way would be to stray away from crushed coral and UGF.
her is a link on plenums, the better idea for anaerobic areas
http://www.seahorse-nw.com/Aquarium_Setup.html
 
You are RIGHT on my slip up on the anaerobic.
You are WRONG on the fact that there are no anaerobic areas in an UGF.
In an UGF, the water does not migrate throughout the bed in equal flow and in fact, the water flows through only a portion of the bed, with the remaining areas being dead areas like in a sand bed.
It works like a plenum only it has areas of more flow
Now, if there is only a thin layer of substrate over the plate, there would be no anaerobic area, but if there wasn't enough live rock to handle the nitrates, then water changes can control the nitrate problem if one develops.
Back in 94, our club set up an experiment with water and dye. At the time, it was solely to point out differences between UGF and pre-filtered reverse flow UGF.
What it also ended up pointing out, was that the crushed coral we used for substrate was stained through out the the depth in many areas, but in other areas, only the top surface granules were dyed, with the crushed coral below still it's original colour, and the bottom layer in contact with the dyed water under the plate, also stained.
The RFUGF used power heads only for this experiment, but the normal UGF used two plates with the left side utilizing air for the uplift tube and a Hagen 201 power head for the right hand plate.
The reverse flow substrate exhibited similar dye patterns to the normal UGF.
We left the set ups running for about 6 months.
Try just the normal UGF set up and put dye in the water and see for yourself.
You have to replace dye occasionally as the water seems to clear itself after a period, probably because of the dye being absorbed by the crushed coral.
At the end, syphon off the coloured water via a tube down the up lift tube, and then "core" sample the subtrate in numerous places around the sand bed.
We used a soil core sampler at the time, and it was about 1/2" in diameter.

I find it very disturbing that you would hand out this kind of information if you do not truely understand what anaerobic areas are or what they do. This is the type of thing that leads people to have problems with their tanks. I agree that CC and UGF's USE to be the norm, BUT there is good and solid reason that they are not the norm NOW, that is because they both cause PROBLEMS!!!!
If you find it disturbing, it's because you haven't enough experience with the salt water use of UGF. You're welcome to visit and see a 40g set up that hasn't had a substrate change in seven years, and, it has NO nitrate problem and little live rock in it. It is one of my prop tanks. (if you are really up on things you must have already read that it is a great probability that the way the nitrification process works, is entirely different than the way we presently believe it works)
In the years I've been in this hobby, I have set up and used pretty well most of the methods that have come along. Most of my ten systems are presently run as bare bottom Berlin method, with one shallow sand bed and the before mentioned UGF. The use of the BB Berlin is purely a personal preference.
I have used UGF, plenums, shallow sand beds, deep sand beds, and hybrids of these, and all methods work. These methods didn't die out because they didn't work, they became less dominant because people wanted to try new things that come about. Do a poll post on RC and see how many are STILL using these older sytems successfully today. I have no doubts that new methods will still come about, but that won't mean that the systems in use now, don't work.

Germanman: There was no trial and error with my set ups in any of the methods I chose over the years as all methods work.
.even though u had several die offs..
If you read thoroughly, the die offs were on Berlin method tanks and were due to elevated temperatures when I was on holidays. They happened three years in a row, the third and worst being a month after I installed a new furnace with whole house A/C to prevent losses like my two previous years, only to leave on holidays and have it fail.
THE ONLY TANK I NEVER SUFFERED ONE LOSS IN WAS THE UGF TANK.
However, the fact it was UGF never figured in not loosing anything, it was more the location of the tank where it remained cooler than any of the others.
If you are concerned about simple methods for new hobbyists then the bare bottom Berlin is as simple as they come and, it works extremely well, but I don't see you recommending that.
UGF, plenums, sand beds shallow or deep, are all systems that work and NONE of them are complex.
People make a system complex when they don't read all about a method before they get into it. They also tend to take short cuts or rush through a process rather than proceed as designed or intended.
Its unfortunate that in this hobby, when something fails, the blame is many times misplaced, with the resulting errant facts being passed on especially since the advent of this computer age.
Simple examples are "my fish got ate by my anemone", or, "my fish got sucked into the intake". While it does happen occasionally, MOST of these scenarios involved fish that died of some cause, and ended up being found in these situations.
The same applies to filtration methods. If something doesn't go right, then blame the set up.
If a lot of people have success with something, and some don't, that doesn't make the "something" necessarily at fault.
 
First off I watched your profile and you where replying to this thread for an hour, plenty of time to google and find one or two people that have made this work and quote their thoughts.

Second due a search and figure out how anaerobic areas work. You need more than a few square inches that you will have with your "sections of no flow" as oxygen will transfer to these areas that is why the edges of these areas are aerobic. even if you set up a DSB the first 1.5 to 2 inches around the edge of the tank are useless as oxygen get in that area due to water movement against the glass and that pushes oxygen into the substrate. therefore your small section arguement is moot unless you are talking a multi thousand gallon set up.

Third your point of the nitrification process "probably" not being what we think it is, well thats crap untill it is proven wrong. I could say a lot of probablies right now but would rather not get banned.

Last but not least the fact that you let "Warm weather" kill your tanks not once, not twice, but, THREE times in a row shows your lack of compassion for the hobby or the animals you keep. It's called a chiller google it and buy one. It will save you money in the long run.

in closeing the fact that you swear up and down that these methods work without posting any proof and then ask for links to factual info on Ph levels shows that you have no proof to show they work, otherwise you would have posted the findings since you are so fond of them.

have a nice day,

Jojo
 
im just trying to get people to leave behind the methods of the old ideas and combine them with the known things due to todays science and bio tech. dont take me wrong ok.
ur tanks are different, in my years working in servicing and in an aquarium store i have met several people that do tanks like u and it works great for them and i myself could replicate the same thing....but have chosen to embrace the future and realized through helping hundreds of customers what the people can usually handle...thats generalized i know but i worked with so many people and its hard for them to specialize like u have. im glad it works for u rayjay and dont ever change im not criticizing u im just helping put out all the options sry if i portrayed else wise. as a bio major i have learned so much about how the micro systems and tiny ecosystems work within aquariums and it is full of so much variability u cant focus on one thing being good or bad. i was just stating against the crushed coral and UGF because with all the people ive served as an aquarium specialist most weren't able to keep the UGF s working on their own and suffered huge nitrate problems....research is all good and well and i know uve prolly had many tanks in ur life and helped others but i have worked on hundreds of tanks and helped several hundred customers and seen how they handle their tanks. that means that my 2 cents i share isnt just my experience and what ive read in the 80 or so books i have read on aquarium keeping, but it is also the combine experiences of my past customers. what one person can do isnt always what the majority will do best with. i mean this with all good heart and please do not take offense to it or take it as a challenge. or right to urself and others are to their own selves.:)
 
Also may I add that just because not enough dye made it into these areas to stain the CC DOES NOT mean that oxygen molecules did not transfer within the water and make these areas aerobic. To confirm your little science project it would take a lot more than a little dye as all you did was see where the dye went and never actually measured the oxygen content of any area of the tank.
 
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