Ph to low

[Lisasha3]

I've seen lots of posts of Ph too high due to tap water or other reasons, but can't find how to fix low Ph. This is a problem I have run into within the past few months on a well established tank. All other test levels are fine, but Ph is dangerously low. Have tried a bunch of things in local stores, but nothing. I change my water at least 30% once a week, and add your basic "stress" reliever solutions to rid tap water of contaminants.

Any suggestions? I'm worried about my angels. All the fish look absolutely fine, but I would like to move my angels to another tank that has a Ph level where it should be. Obviously don't want to shock them so have to fix this first (as well as for the well being of the other little guys in the tank). My angels I have had for quite sometime and this is my breeding pair, so I don't want to lose them.
Thanks,
Lisa

[Skittyfish]

You might post your parameters...ph, kh,gh.

[ChilDawg]

Too low for Angels? What pH is this? That would tell me if you would need to raise the pH. Also, have you done a water change lately? Going without water changing tends to lower the pH drastically.

[Lisasha3]

Parameters huh?
Well off the top of my head (cause I haven't checked it in a few days) I know that the ammonia was fine, Nit's were fine and I don’t have a problem with water hardness. As for which Ph? Well, you got me on this one. Call me ignorant, but I've only tested for one. I didn't know there were other Ph's? Are there? Anyways, from what I’ve read in the past – Angelfish do like the water slightly more acidic, but not much (they are cichlid family right?). They seem to thrive around 6.6 – 6.9. Maybe I’m wrong about this, it’s just from past research and reading I’ve done, (although, if you look hard enough, you can find recommended ranges anywhere from 5.8 through 9.0 which in my mind is ridiculous!).
The tank they are going “into” is around 6.8. The tank that they are in now – the PH is off the scale (around 6.0 – water very acidic). Like I said – all the fish look absolutely fine. My biggest concern is the drastic change from 6.0 to 6.8 between tanks, as well as the other fish that are in there that would also be happier at 6.8 (or even 7.0 now that the angels are being moved).

As for the water changes - I do them every Saturday - minimum of 30%. Could the stress coat or stress zyme be lowering the Ph? I use to only add this to the new water, but a friend of mine "yelled" at me telling me I was reading the directions incorrectly and said to add it to the whole tank during water changes. I've never done this before. Is adding to the whole tank vs. just the new water an issue?

[carpguy]

I know nothing about stresscoat or stresszyme. I'm assuming at least one of them is a dechlorinator? I dechlorinate the change water only with Amquel, works fine.

The nitrogen cycle tends to acidify the tank over time (NH3/4 >> NO2, where did all those Hs get to?) The carbonate (KH) part of hardness usually absorbs this acid, the GH part (Ca and Mg) don't play a part here. When nonfish folk talk about water being hard or soft they are usually talking about GH, fish folk are more concerned with KH. Over time the acid will use up all the KH and then the pH will suddenly drop to very low levels. Regular water changes usually replenish the KH, unless your change water is itself low in KH (like mine is). If your KH is below 3 dKH (say 50 ppm) you can add a few tablespoons of crushed coral (usually in a mesh filter bag or old stocking) to your filter to raise it, the pH will follow the KH. Just use enough to raise yourself up to a safe level -- try 1 tblspn/10g and add or subtract to suit. This will take a few days to have an effect, so give it some time. It may take a few weeks to get it just so.

[Lisasha3]

Thanks,
I'm with you on the H's - confuses the hell out of me. I just get the basic test kits.
As for my water hardness - I actually have never tested it here. I wonder if that's part of the problem (the KH as you say - that foreign language). I'll check that. It's a good possibility. (Bear with me in my stupidity here, but if KH in my tap is low and possibly what I"m using as dechlorinator has some kind of additional water softener in it. Maybe I'm softening water that doesn't need it.
In the meantime though you think the coral will help huh?
Hope so, cause none of the treatments that are "actually" made to help with PH seem to work - so why bother.
Thanks for the help.
On another note - what about angel PH? Like I stated previously - depending on where you look the range is huge - but I've seen most of the concentration around 6.6 - 6.9.

[ChilDawg]

I don't think that 6.0 is too low for Angels, but you might try getting a lower-ended pH test kit. I think that that would definitely help to determine if they're being injured by low pH or not.

[Skittyfish]

You might also do a 50% water change on your regular day, than a couple of days later do another, cleaning the gravel pretty well to get the gunk out. That should help replace your kh if the tank has a low kh and the water from the tap has a higher kh.

Isn't this called "old tank syndrome" or something like that?

[carpguy]

fishbase.org lists altum angels (http://fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=47075&genusname=Pterophyllum&speciesname=altum) as coming from water with a range of 4.8-6.2 kH. scalare (http://fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?ID=4717&genusname=Pterophyllum&speciesname=scalare) angels it lists at 6-8 pH. Notcatfish.com has altums at 5.8-6.2 and scalare at 6-7.

If you're at the bottom of your pH test kits range then you really only know its at that point or lower, can't say for sure which. There isn't anything in your dechlorinator that is softening your water -- some people with high KH would be doing backflips if there was.

A lot of the pH up/down/middle products seem to only encourage instability and not really do the trick. If you have a very low pH, then you probably have a very low KH (the K is from German for carbonates btw, good call on the foreign language ;) ) -- a little bit of coral will add KH in a slow stable way. A little bit of baking soda will do the same in a faster less stable way. Whats the pH of your tapwater (after its been sitting out overnight)? KH of tank and tap would also be good to know (assuming you're using tapwater). 6.5 + or - a little bit should be fine for either species and stable in the long run -- I think safely maintaining something around 6.0 might take some finesse.

I think old tank syndrome is exactly this depletion of the KH buffer over time in mature tanks without sufficient waterchanges. A low natural KH in the water can produce the same thing even with waterchanges.

[RTR]

OTS is the depletion of natural buffers plus the buildup of nitrates and other pollutants.

Lisasha3 - you should test the KH of you your tap and tank before doing corrections. If the KH is low in both, then follow carpguy's excellent suggestions in the prior post. Don't make the change too fast, especially with the sodium bicarbonate. Slow change is okay, fast is stressful.

[Lisasha3]

Thanks! I'll test my tap this weekend along with changing a little more of the tank water too (can't hurt).
It's funny - something so logical, I never thought of checking - the darn tap water I add to the tank.
As for all the Ph recommendations you guys are suggesting for angels - I also found some that low (5.8 - 6.6), but I also found some high ones too and many neutral suggestions (7.0). So - who's right? Who's wrong? There are so many different "recommendations" you never know and there are so many places (on web and LFS) that say they are fine in a community tank - if that's the case, then most community tanks run around neutral.
I figured they would like a slightly more acidic water due to the fact that they are cichlids, but I guess the question remains - how low??
Just for the record though - They are thriving at whatever Ph level the tank actually is. They are very active, beautiful colors, healthy, and in fact laying eggs once a month. The tank is too busy to let them hatch though and they wind up eating them out of pure panic (one reason why I'm moving them to their own tank).
Anyway - Thanks again and I will check my tap.

[wetmanNY]

I guess if you surf around enough, you'll always get divergent opinions. So what are the criteria for deciding which are the more trustworthy opinions?

In 1997, Robert Harris posted a document, "Evaluating internet research sources" at http://www.virtualsalt.com/evalu8it.htm , which people concerned with this issue might want to take a look at.

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by Lisasha3
I figured they would like a slightly more acidic water due to the fact that they are cichlids, but I guess the question remains - how low??

Careful with using this as a rule of thumb--C/A Cichlids and those from the African Rift Lakes (and Victoria) tend to like more basic water, but you can't even use that as a rule for the C/As.

[RTR]

Plus the fact that common (scalare) Angels has been tank reared for so many generations that most of them will be fine in any normal tank water, pH 6-8. They have been preselected for survival in captivity. Altum Angels are a different matter entirely.

[superjohnny]

Try adding a little baking soda... maybe 1/4 tsp. That should raise your ph a bit. Do that until your ph is around 6.6-7.0 which is about right for angels.