View Full Version : need sump info
ok as some of you know i built my stand for me new set up being built under my stairs, the stand has an opening of 22 1/2'' at the front so can be no wider than 22'' (left to right) however if can be 24'' deep (front to back).
it needs to fit an ap600 skimmer and eheim 1250 feed pump in one section so i need 9'' for that, it will have a DSB and then a compartment for the return pump or pumps.
what size sump should i build and where is the best place to section of each compartment.
the tank is a 32Wx32Dx24H will have 2 outlets in a wier not built or drilled YET.
jojo22
04-07-2007, 8:00 PM
Ok are you wanting to build a sump or buy a tank and turn it into a sump???
If you have the guts and skill to work with acrylic I would say build the largest sump you can fit and make it as tall as you can (while still acessing equipment). The more water the better!!
I would make the intake first, then the return, then the fuge on the other side. Place a "t" in the return line with a ballvalve so you can have adjustable flow to the fuge and call it a day.
i will get one made out of glass
jojo22
04-07-2007, 9:39 PM
Same thing then, make it as large as your stand will allow!!
Reefscape
04-08-2007, 6:14 AM
size wise, i agree..As you need 9" for the return pump, that is the smallest your return can be, add 3 inches for a bubble trap..So, your half way through filling the sump already...that leaves 12 inches to split up for inlet and fuge..possibly a bit less as you will need a little play room in the return...The plus side is that it can be a quite wide for a sump ( 22" )...
Niko
Reefscape
04-08-2007, 6:22 AM
Is there any possibility of mounting the return pump outside the sump?
jojo22
04-08-2007, 8:01 AM
GOOD IDEA!!! Have you bought a pump yet???
Dixon
04-11-2007, 10:59 AM
here you go i made a drawing or 2, sump size 22''wide x 18'' deep and 12'' high.
sorry about the drawing.
jojo22
04-11-2007, 11:17 AM
First off you should only need one return pump unless you want two for a multi tank sump, second have you thought about a sump with the return in the middle, it would make your fuge much more effecent. Also you may want to add another over baffel just to help with micro bubbles.
Reefscape
04-11-2007, 11:26 AM
the only think i would change, as JoJo said above, is add the extra baffle and loose the extra pump...my opinion is the layout is fine with regards to all measurements.....
Niko
jojo22
04-11-2007, 11:39 AM
Well the ideal flow thru a fuge is 3-5 x per hour, he will have way more than that with the fuge in the middle, so the DSB and macro's won't be able to do their job.
Reefscape
04-11-2007, 11:50 AM
mine is setup like that, as you may remember from my build thread...and it works great....hmmmm...dejavue.....lol
There are so many ways to configure a sump..each will work...both ways have been proven to work..its down to personal preference..and how you want to manage it....
Just my opinion of course...
Niko
jojo22
04-11-2007, 12:06 PM
I have also seen reefs run on less than idea water flow but that does not make it correct, IMO/IME a fuge that gets more than 5x flow is useless as the water will not have enough contact time with the macro/LR/DSB.
Reefscape
04-11-2007, 12:28 PM
A sump does not have to have a return in the middle, else millions of other reefers have got it all wrong...a return in the middle, or fuge in the middle, is just two ways, of countless others, of setting the sump up...I am not dissagreeing with you JoJo, am mearly stating that there is more than one way to setup...Its ultimatly down to the individual to have it how they want it after seeing the options available to them rather than be channelled down one route..
Niko
i was running 2 pumps together just incase i failed and i'd still have flow, same with the heaters.
i will also have 2 inlet pipe from the tank for the same reasons.
ok i can lose a pump and just get one huge eheim so it will never fail.
i can also add an extra baffle, are you talking a mini baffle only a few inches high. anyone care to elaborate.
Reefscape
04-11-2007, 2:00 PM
the baffles that are between the fuge and the return, need to have three baffles which will act as a bubble trap...have attached my sump drawing so you can see what i mean....
Niko
thanks Niko, i have had a change of plan and will now use the skimmer outside of the tank and only leave the feed pump in the first compartment.
if i site the skimmer outside the sump and make it 15'' deep, this would mean the inlet compartment would only need to be around 6'' and outlet 6'' meaning a 12'' deep sand bed compartment.
i just sized this up and it would all fit so new sump sizes would be 24''Wx15''Dx15''H, as the sump is not as deep i can squeeze the sump in on an angle and get the extra 2'' length, this would also mean it would be a std size and much cheaper to be built.
i see what you mean by the 3 baffle system and i will use this, the skimmer i have is the Deltec ap600 with Eheim 1250 feed pump, this was set up previously like my plans now, i bought it from a member of UF.com it was used on a 4x2x2.
Dixon
a friend Paul aka claude did this for me, it will be 24x15x15 and compartment will be 6x12x6
jojo22
04-11-2007, 9:00 PM
I strongly urge you to do more research on the purpose and set up of a refugium. Your refuge will be far less than effecent the way you have it now. As I do not feel that it is up to the individual, that is far from the truth, while everything is "up to the person setting it up" there is a right and a wrong way to do things.
I strongly urge you to do more research on the purpose and set up of a refugium. Your refuge will be far less than effecent the way you have it now. As I do not feel that it is up to the individual, that is far from the truth, while everything is "up to the person setting it up" there is a right and a wrong way to do things.
so what in your opinion is the right way, thats the whole purpose of this thread, it pointless saying your wrong without the information to back up that statement.
one of the reasons i start threads like this is to get correct info that can be adapted to work with my system, i dont rush into things i like to do things the right way.
jojo22
04-12-2007, 7:56 AM
How much flow should I have in the refugium?
The flow rate through a refugium is slower than through the sump. By use of a ball valve on the water feed to the refugium, you can set the flow rate to your specific desire. You need to avoid stagnant water, and the surface of the water should be broken slightly to avoid a film growing on the surface. Try to achieve a gentle flow throughout this zone.
Info found here: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html
The reason for this is that for your macros and DSB to work and do their job correctly, for one to understand this they need to realise that the export of nutrients and nitrate is not instant, it takes a few moments. so if you lay out your sump with a intake/return/fuge order you then put a "T" fitting in the return line with a ball or gate valve and route that to the fuge, water then goes thru the fuge at whatever rate you have the valve set to allow. Ideally you should have 3-5X turnover. This is enough to prevend any dead spots but slow enough to allow the water to have contact time with the macros for nutrient export and the DSB for de-nitrification. Do a little research on macro's and DSB applications and it will all make sense. If you put LR in your fuge the slower flow will also allow for more an-aerobic areas as oxygenated water will not be forced as deep into the pores of the rock which will also help with de-nitrification.
It makes alot more sence then just going with the flow and setting thing up the way others do, if we all set up our tanks the way everybody else did and never accepted new advances we would still be useing CC and UGF's on our reefs. The ONLY way this hobby advances is thru research and the acceptance of new ideas. So please look into this furthere and make your own judgement call.
By the way the link I provided is write by Marc Levenstein (I hope I spell his last name right) a highly respected hobbiest who has helped co-author many books and also writes and helps produce talking reef podcast. His advice should be taken with the same acceptance as that of Anthony Calfo,Steven Pro and Eric Bornman, as he is just as versed in the hobby his area of expertise just happens to be sumps.
How much flow should I have in the refugium?
The flow rate through a refugium is slower than through the sump. By use of a ball valve on the water feed to the refugium, you can set the flow rate to your specific desire. You need to avoid stagnant water, and the surface of the water should be broken slightly to avoid a film growing on the surface. Try to achieve a gentle flow throughout this zone.
Info found here: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html
The reason for this is that for your macros and DSB to work and do their job correctly, for one to understand this they need to realise that the export of nutrients and nitrate is not instant, it takes a few moments. so if you lay out your sump with a intake/return/fuge order you then put a "T" fitting in the return line with a ball or gate valve and route that to the fuge, water then goes thru the fuge at whatever rate you have the valve set to allow. Ideally you should have 3-5X turnover. This is enough to prevend any dead spots but slow enough to allow the water to have contact time with the macros for nutrient export and the DSB for de-nitrification. Do a little research on macro's and DSB applications and it will all make sense. If you put LR in your fuge the slower flow will also allow for more an-aerobic areas as oxygenated water will not be forced as deep into the pores of the rock which will also help with de-nitrification.
It makes alot more sence then just going with the flow and setting thing up the way others do, if we all set up our tanks the way everybody else did and never accepted new advances we would still be useing CC and UGF's on our reefs. The ONLY way this hobby advances is thru research and the acceptance of new ideas. So please look into this furthere and make your own judgement call.
By the way the link I provided is write by Marc Levenstein (I hope I spell his last name right) a highly respected hobbiest who has helped co-author many books and also writes and helps produce talking reef podcast. His advice should be taken with the same acceptance as that of Anthony Calfo,Steven Pro and Eric Bornman, as he is just as versed in the hobby his area of expertise just happens to be sumps.
ok now i see what you mean and can go look in the right places.
my pipework is already been decided on with 2 pipes in a weir going to the sump with one of them as you described with a T peice and valve going into the second compartment.
i will now go look into DSB's and refugiums and even sump design.
jojo22
04-12-2007, 8:48 AM
SWEET, let us know what you decide!!!!
SWEET, let us know what you decide!!!!
will do it looks like i have a long day ahead of me.
jojo22
04-12-2007, 9:47 AM
You may also find this interesting, might be a way to go, I have heard mixed reviews but all that have had trouble have blamed it on themself as the baffels where not cut to fit correctly (not tight enough)
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm
You may also find this interesting, might be a way to go, I have heard mixed reviews but all that have had trouble have blamed it on themself as the baffels where not cut to fit correctly (not tight enough)
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm
the sump is being profesionally built, i am looking into getting the sizes and baffle/compartment info correct before i ask them to make it.
they built my tank so should get the baffles and stuff like that correctly fitted.
i have been reading up on the link you posted and i am looking into both styles of set up with return in the middle or at the end, i can make the pipework to suit and this is not a problem.
dixon
jojo22
04-12-2007, 5:35 PM
What are you finding as pro's and con's of each type??? Maybe we could work some of them out (on both sides of the fence) and help you make you decision easier.
option 1 inlet/fuge/return
option 2 inlet/return/fuge
i was also going to lose some fuge and inlet compartment size to get a bigger return size after reading about evaporation. i may look inot external pumping.
well so far from what i have read keeping the return at the end in the standard set up is a little harder to set the flow through the fuge and will take a lot more calculating,the pipework will be a lot easier to do for both inlet and outlet as they will be at either end, my weir will be in the middle of the tank at the back.
as for the return in the middle of the sump you have multiple options for pipework although it will be take a lot more pipework to keep my return away from the weir as it will be directly under it. as i will have 2 outlets from the weir i would have one supply the fuge directly with a ball valve to control the flow and the other to go directly to the inlet compartment for the skimmer.
the flow for the first option will be affected totally by my outlet pipe sizes and harder but not impossible to control.
the second option i can control it totally using a ball valve, i decided to have 2 outlets from the weir incase of a blockage if i only had one but can utilise the second outlet for another purpose ie filling and flow for the fuge.
either way can have an overflow from the return compartment back into the fuge due to them being next to each other in both sump layouts.
the outlet pipe from the skimmer on option 2 will have to be longer to reach the fuge or as i am using the skimmer outside the sump can be moved closer to the fuge as the feed tubing is a decent length.
with option 1 the skimmer outlet tube will be next to the both inlet and fuge compartment so a little easier.
what do you all think, am i on the right lines.
i now need to look into exaclty what grows in the fuge to help with the chemical process. anyone got any good links or info.
jojo22
04-13-2007, 5:55 PM
I don't get where the skimmer comes in??? Just put that in the inlet IMO. also with the fuge in the middle there would be no reason to run a line from the return to the fuge unless your pump it too strong for your overflow.
As far as keeping the return pipe away from the inlet, a few 45's in the lie and all is well with the benifits far outweighing the flow cost which should me minimal.
You asked and thats what I think, hope it helps!!
I don't get where the skimmer comes in??? Just put that in the inlet IMO.
the skimmer will be outside the sump at the front with the feed pump only in the inlet
also with the fuge in the middle there would be no reason to run a line from the return to the fuge unless your pump it too strong for your overflow.
yes this would be for overflow incase the return pump was too strong, not a must but a maybe
As far as keeping the return pipe away from the inlet, a few 45's in the lie and all is well with the benifits far outweighing the flow cost which should me minimal.
yep its not a major problem i may even use part flexi and part fixed pipework to give more flexibility
You asked and thats what I think, hope it helps!!
yep it does and i may go for this option as it seems easier to manage the flow for the fuge for a salt newb like me.
what do you think about using the second outlet pipe directly into the fuge using a valve to control the flow rate
jojo22
04-13-2007, 6:20 PM
I don't like the idea because then part of your water coming out of the tank will never see the skimmer, thus making your systam somewhat less effecent. I think t'ing off of the return is better as the water has a chance to see the skimmer (which IMO also helps oxygen exchange). And may I ask why the outlet of the skimmer couldn't go back into the intake section of the sump?? I think this would be easier and a better option as flowing it to the fuge will give some non controlable flow, and not all your water enters the skimmer which the nutrients from the water that does not would be good for the macros exspecially if you have a good skimmer that removes a lot of dark waste.
I don't like the idea because then part of your water coming out of the tank will never see the skimmer,thus making your systam somewhat less effecent.
yes i see that so have both outlets dropping water into the inlet compartment then.
I think t'ing off of the return is better as the water has a chance to see the skimmer (which IMO also helps oxygen exchange). And may I ask why the outlet of the skimmer couldn't go back into the intake section of the sump??
it can there is no reason why it cant, it could even go directly into the return compartment as it is the next compartment to the inlet compartment. so sending the water through the return pipe into the fuge with a t piece is a good option, will this not be devoid of the nutrients required for the fuge if its the water about to be sent back to the tank?
I think this would be easier and a better option as flowing it to the fuge will give some non controlable flow, and not all your water enters the skimmer which the nutrients from the water that does not would be good for the macros exspecially if you have a good skimmer that removes a lot of dark waste.
the skimmer is a deltec ap600 so it is a good one the outlet from the skimmer has a valve to control the flow heres a pic of it and feed pump , im not sure what you mean.
jojo22
04-13-2007, 6:58 PM
Personally I would run a vinyl tube and route the output to the intake section of the sump, or shorten the tube, you will want to use that adjustment to get the foam you want (wet or dry depending) and not waste it to regulate the flow in the fuge.
ok so this would work the skimmer tubing is adjustable
jojo22
04-13-2007, 9:03 PM
Sounds sweet to me!!
Dixon
04-21-2007, 12:11 PM
ok i have my final design so here goes what do you think
the sump will be 26'' long by 18'' wide by 14'' high
the intake/skimmer section compartment will be 6''long and 18''wide and will be situated on the left handside and will have a 3 baffle bubble trap totalling 3'' wide and has a 1 '' gap between each baffle with centre baffle 1'' of the bottom. this section totals 9''.
this section will hold the feed pump for the skimmer only.
the next compartment in the middle is the return which will be 7'' long by 18''wide and will hold the return pump and heaters only.
the last compartment will be the fuge section at the other end of the tank and will be 8'' long by 18'' wide and will hold a deep sand bed with live rock rubble only.
this will be partitioned with a single baffle from the return.
the tank will have 2 holes drilled with bulkheads behind a weir, each bulkhead will have piping flowing too the sump with one flowing directly the the intake compartment and the other piping will have a T peice section, the T peice sectioned piping will split between the fuge and the intake compartments with the fuge piping having a ball valve to help regulate the flow.
once set up the intake compartment will receive 75% of the water and the fuge the other 25%, the return compartment should be big enough too keep the evaporation down too.
the baffle height will be 9'' with the center baffle being 10'' due to the 1'' gap underneath