New tank questions...

[Xeider]

New to these boards, though I have been reading through a good deal over the past few weeks.

Quick history: Had a 10 gallon tank with gold fish growing up, but reading through many of FAQ on the net I did a lot of things wrong with that tank. More recently, I have had a 1-gallon bowl on my desk at work with a Beta and a black mystery snail and a plant growing out of it. It been up and running for 2 years (though the snail is a more recent addition). I feel like I have a good handle on taking care of this tank with 20% water changes every other week, with feeding and cleaning.

Currently I am planning on a 10-20 gallon tank in my office, and in the future a 55+ gallon tank at home (wife has vetoed any fish tanks at home until a bunch of home improvement task are completed, but hopefully by the end of summer they will be done.)

I am planning on buying a kit tank from Wal-Mart with a minimum of a 10-gallon tank, but I will probably try for a 15 or maybe a 20-gallon if it’s not too expensive. Right now cost of set up is of larger concern (and available space, to place the tank, a 20-gallon may be too big).

Currently my plans for stocking the tank are based off of a 10-gallon.
5-6 Zebra Danio (Brachydanio Rerio)
2 Blue Rams (Microgeophagus Ramirezi)
1 Java Fern (Microsorum Pteropus)
1 Swordplant (Echinodorus Bleheri)

I was planning on using 3 Zebra Danio to cycle the tank, and I hadn’t decided if I was going to add the plants before or after I cycle the tank (I have seen both recommended). The plants will be in before I introduce the Blue Rams. At a later date I may add a red claw crab (Sesarma Bidens) if I go with a 10-gallon, or perhaps a red-tail shark (Epalzeorhynchus Bicolor) if I get a larger tank.

Any recommendations or suggestions?

[OrionGirl]

Bigger is always better, but I understand space limitations. They do sell 20H, which are the same footprint as a 10, but taller. Not a fan of them, since the depth can cause some problems with water circulation and scaping a tall tank is a pain. The 15H aren't bad--I like mine, and with a HOB and a powerhead, I never had problems.

Have you considered fishless cycling? Danios will survive a cycle, but with each new fish, the tank will cycle again as the bacteria plays catch up with the increased waste production. Rams don't deal well with ammonia, so this isn't the way I would go. You can avoid that by fishlessly cycling the tank, and then adding all the fish and plants within a week or so.

I would add more plants. They do wonderful things for you tank (slurping up ammonia and nitrates), add beauty and will make the fish more comfortable. The sword will need lots of light--I would forgo it in favor of a crypt. Similar long leaves, but much better in low light conditions. Anubias is another favorite of mine--they grow on wood or rocks.

I would avoid the crab. They tend to snag sleeping fish, they are escape artists, need brackish water, and must have a terrestrial section. You'll read lots of people say otherwise, but I haven't heard anyone keep them happily in a regular FW aquarium for more than about 6 months.

The RTS should definetly wait until you get a bigger tank.

[Kirin Fang]

I'd recommend against the crab also. At my LFS they have a few crabs in a tank with some tetras and barbs and just about every time I go in there, I see the crabs with a fish in their claws.

The Wal-Mart set-ups are good. They work fine and are inexpensive. I'm going to get a 55 gallon set-up there within the next few weeks and swap out a few of the tihings it come with (I'm going to switch the filter with my Fluval). The tank with the equipment and the stand is a little bit over $200. The 10 gallon set-ups there are around $60 I think. I have one of their 10 gallons for my quarantine tank.

[caz]

be careful on the rams, certain types can be very sensitive and be very tough to keep

[ChilDawg]

Would it be Bolivians that you would want?

I see this tank being a little overstocked, but the plants would definitely help!

[Xeider]

First, thank you for your impute. I am still trying to get a handle on all the information on the web (most of which contradicts each other).

I did a little shopping last night (Wal-Mart and then PetSmart) and was not overly impressed with the packaged tank availability. The components available in the package looked to be the minimum you would need for the tanks, and I quickly got the impression some of the included items would need to be replaced, if not soon after setting up the tank, some time down the road. There was one package deal at PetSmart that was a bit better, but I was beginning to realize, I am probably going to need to spend a little more then I had originally hoped, and I am going to want a 15 or 20tall tank. Neither store I visited had 15 gallon tanks, and only PetSmart had 20 tall tanks, but not in a package.

As for going with a fishless cycle, I will be reading more today about that today, to see if I understand it well enough to comfortable trying it. (I had read about it before, but the sites I had read passed it off as not as the most reliable method)

I am going to stop by the LFS near my work and see what kinds of tanks (and possible packages) they have available. Regardless, I think I am going to get a 15 (24x12x12”), or more likely a 20tall (24x12x16”) tank.

With those two tanks, I will plan on getting equipment (if I don’t find a decent package) that can handle at least 20 gallons. Does anyone have any personal recommendations on filters (probably a HOB, but with a deeper tank, should I go with an undergravel, or perhaps both) and heaters? A friend recommends the penguin bio wheel, but only the much larger sizes (which would probably be impractical not to say expensive for a 20tall.

As for fish, my main desire for this tank is to have 2 small to medium colorful slower moving fish, and a small school of slightly smaller fish. I would like to have something that helps clean the bottom of the tank as well, which could be another apple/ mystery snail. It makes sense to avoid the crab, though I read a site that really talked it up that got me interested.

As for plants, I will be looking into the crypt and anubias further. I am really up for anything there, but I didn’t want to have too many plants that I was going to need to add additional CO2 to keep them alive.

So much to learn, I am glad I tend to be patient, and didn’t go out right away and just start buying stuff.

Thank you for your advise.

[Xeider]

Came into a decent deal at the beginning of last week. A 20 gallon tall tank, with all its equipment and supplies, (including food and chemicals for treating and testing) for $50. Picked it up, cleaned the tank, discovered it was slightly scratched on one side, but held water (the scratched side will be the back). It came with an undergravel filter and air pump, which I decided I didn’t want to deal with (though I may use the air pump for something else eventually). It also had a Whisper 20, but after I set it up, I found that it does not work. I ended up ordering a penguin 170 and it just arrived, and is up and running. (amazingly ordering online with shipping was still $7 cheaper then buying at the store even if online and pet store were the same company). The whisper heater appears to work and after fiddling with it for the last few days I have been able to get a constant 75 deg. F.

25 lbs. of fine dark brown gravel are in the tank, the water is filled, and the heater is in. I have a large multicolored pillar rock that I intend to attach some plants to, along with a few rocks that have natural caves, and multiple small pieces of slate to create more cave and hiding places. I picked up a root from the LFS, let it soak for about a week, changing the water daily (except for over the weekend).

Revised plans for the tank
5 Zebra Danio (Brachydanio Rerio) – 3 initially to start the tank cycling probably on Tuesday
2 Bolivian Rams (Microgeophagus altispinosa)
3 Panda Cory (corydoras panda) or possibly 2-3 Otto (Otocinclus affinis)
Various plants (java ferns, jave moss, anubias, crypt) later possibly add (apon, sagittaria, hornwort, water sprite)

I am planning on grabbing the black mystery snail currently in with my beta and moving him over to the tank tonight. Might grab the decorations or gravel as well to help with the helpful bacteria growth. I am planning on waiting until Tuesday (5/27) to add the first 3 zebra danio and a few plants. This is mainly because the tank is at work, and I don’t plan on coming in to check on it over the three-day weekend (Memorial Day).

After the tank has been running a week or two, I will add the last two Zebra Danio, and a few more plants. Wait another week or two after the tank is fully cycled, and add the Cory cats. And then a week or two after that add the Bolivian rams. I will probably continue to add a few plants as I add fish, though I never want to get the tank to where I need to add additional CO2 to keep the plants alive.

[ChilDawg]

The first three ZDs would be at a disadvantage...they'd be a little nitrite-poisoned. I'd rather not see fishy cycling unless Bio-Spira were used prior to the addition of fish.

[Xeider]

I have a bottle of AmQuel by Kordan (also NovAqua a conditioner & fish protector), which states to perform the similar function that bio-spira performs.

(it removes ammonia, chloramines, toxic pheromones, and chlorine) It however is not a live bacteria which needs to be refrigerated.

I have no particular brand loyalty, but I have the Kordan products on hand. I hadn’t planned on using them (preferring to become more educated on the products I have instead of blindly using them) but if they will help, I will.

I had thought about going with the fishless cycle, but there was a great deal of conflicting advise on the matter on the web, and much more concurring advise on cycling with fish that I decided to try the fish method of cycling for this tank.

I am somewhat wary of a product that claims to be able to instantly add a working nitrifying bacteria colony. It seems that there needs to be time at least for the bacteria to grow on the bio-wheel of my penguin. I understand that the bacteria will grow elsewhere but... there is too much uncertainty with this approach in my mind.

[ChilDawg]

I would strongly advise against fishy cycling. There is very little conflicting advice to that effect on this board. There is a sticky at the top of this forum that will tell you exactly how to cycle without using fish to do so.

[RTR]

Sorry, but Amquel and BioSpira are not in way the same thing, nor do they have the same function. BioSpira is a live bacteria inoculation for a new tank, Anquel is a water conditioner which complexes some toxic waste until good-guy bacteria can eat it.

[ChilDawg]

(Scratches head and wonders, "Why didn't I catch that?")

RTR, if Xeider is going to cycle using fish, would Bio-Spira be something that he should definitely add a day or so prior to adding the ZDs? Would you recommend that he add the full bio-load after that point?

[Xeider]

Just stopped by my lfs (nice to have one a 2 minute walk away from my desk at work) to ask about Bio-Spira. He was very in favor of using it (though that could be the $11 he would be getting for it). He mentioned that I would need to add some fish at the time of adding the Bio-Spira to give food for the bacteria. Most likely this would be the 5 zebra danio.

I would give this group a few days, or possibly more and then add the panda cory (on the lfs suggestion). Seeing how the Bolivians are going to be the more expensive of the fish in my tank, I will probably wait a few weeks to make sure the tank is ok before adding them.

I was a bit skeptical of the Bio-Spira, but what I have read so far makes it look like the product it claims to be. Regardless, I won't be doing anything with this until after Memorial Day, so I have a few days to get more comfortable with the idea.

[ChilDawg]

Okay...I just wanted to be sure that your Zebras were put in the best possible position, and it seems as though Bio-Spira (which I think must sit alone in the tank at least overnight...read the directions to be sure) will do that for them...though fishless cylcing would be better (as you know I will always advocate)

[RTR]

Whatever you do, follow the instructions - I know it borders on un-American, but it can help. If it says overnight, give it overnight. If it say immediately, do that.

[Xeider]

Picked up the Bio-Spira and 5 zebra danio. The directions on the packet said that fish could be added immediately. Through a little research on the web I discovered that it a good idea to introduce fish soon after adding Bio-Spira, and not to wait more then a couple of days (so the bacteria have something to eat).

After acclimating them in the bag, the 5 are now free swimming in the tank. They have been exploring the tank, and seemed to have broken into two groups one of three smaller fish (3/4” in size) and the two slightly larger fish (1” in size). The bigger fish seem to be comfortable out in the open near the top of the tank, while the smaller are hiding behind rocks and have stayed closer to the bottom of the tank.

I plan on picking up 3 panda cory tomorrow to add to the tank. I will look at adding some plants at the end of this week, or beginning of next. And in a few weeks, if the tank is stable and doing well, add 2 Bolivian rams.

[Anaxus]

My zebras do that too, even though its been over a month since adding them. I have 3 large almost 2inch, 1 medium about a inch and two smaller ones. One of the smaller ones allways hangs out in the plants. The others are always chasing and nipping at each other so I just figured the small one feels bullied.

[TKOS]

I don't know much about rams and how they react to other fish, but have you thought about adding the betta to the tank. I used to keep my betta in a small 1 gallon tanks and thought he was lovely. That was until I moved him to a planted 5 gallon tank. It is so much better to watch him swim amoung the plants and investigate the other fish (for awhile he was in my 10 gallon with some cories and minnows).

[Xeider]

I have a betta in a bowl next to my computer (where the new 20 gallon in away from the computer on the far side of one my desks in a corner). I had thought about transferring him over to the new tank, but my understanding is that he and the rams will not get along too well. The LFS near me sometimes has pretty female bettas (well compared to most of the females you see) that I may add one to the new tank. I could drop it in with the male from time to time to see their interaction, and possible spawnage (though I am not really planning on trying to raise the fry).

The danios seem to be very happy, and are adjusting well, though one not as well as the others. It was shy long after the others were free swimming the tank. Upon closer observation there is a red welt on the right side of its body, and its right forward fin does not appear to be working well. I made sure to observe the tank for a good while before I purchased the fish, and do not remember seeing any marks on the fish. I think it probably happened in netting (another fish has a mark across it, but no obvious side effects). The owner wasn’t helping me, but a younger kid who works there part time, and he had trouble catching the zebra danio. Is it worth me trying to return the fish (it only cost me a dollar) for another one, or will this fish heal over time? He can move when he needs to, but no where near the darting around of the other 4.

[Anaxus]

I had the same problem with a zebra. It had a blood mark near the stomach area. She was fine for a bit then started to just float and be pushed around by the current and only moving occasionally. It died shortly therafter. I think it was probably due to being smashed by the net and maby rupturing something internally.

[superjohnny]

For $100 you can get a pretty nice setup used. Check around in the local Want Ads, Nickel Adds or www.craigslist.com and buy something someone else doesn't watn. I've tried for a long time to sell my 30 gallon, ready to setup for $75, but had no luck. I'd go $50 easily.

Tanks lose value really fast. Their just isn't much demand so it's a buyers market for used stuff.

Personally I suggest people new to the hobby go with 30gallon and bigger tanks as they tend to be more flexible than the smaller 6-12 gallon tanks. Just my opinion though.

[superjohnny]

I just checked... do a search in the Washington DC area for aquarium and you'll get 4-5 possible leads.

Good luck :)

[Xeider]

Added the Panda Cory a short time ago. Goodness the little guys are cute. There only about 1/2 inch long. So far only one of the three has been really active. For the most part they have just been sitting at the bottom of the tank until one of my zebra danio zips down to pester them. So far no real problem, looks like the zebras are just curious. Amazingly sudenly the zebras have a huge intrest in the bottom of the tank, where before they were mostly at the top and middle. There are plenty of hidding places for the corys to go if they need to, I think at least one has (as I have only seen two for the last while.)

[Xeider]

Left work late Friday with 3 alive and active panda cory (along with the 5 zebra danio), and came into work early Monday to find one very active panda, one dead panda stuck to the filter intake, and I can't seem to find the third panda. The one stuck to the filter intake looked to have been nibbled on, but I can't tell it that was before or after death (I have a feeling a majority was after).

I added two java ferns (Microsorium pteropus) a crypt (Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae) and a water sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides) early friday, and they all seem to be doing well (light on for 11 hours on timer for over the weekend). The sprite lost a few pieces that have floated around, but not too bad. The java ferns are starting to attach themselves to the rock pillar I tied them to.

One of my danios seems to like going into a dense planting of water sprite and will sit there without moving for 10-15 minutes or until another fish comes over and pesters it. It that normal?

When I get a chance, I am going to test the water and compare it to the reading I got on Friday. I am going to take the dead fish back to see if I can get a credit (they have a 7 day guarantee) for some future pandas to replace the one(s) I lost.