Does cleaning the tank cause a nitrate spike?

[AngieW]

Today we did a massive clean up of the sides of the tank. The previous owners had allowed a large build up of coral, salt, etc on all sides of the tank. We did the front when we first got it and we did a more thorough cleaning today, including the back. Now I'm wondering if that could cause a spike in nitrates with all the gunk we stirred up? I'm planning on a water change tomorrow, I was only going to do 10%, should I plan on more? Is there anything else that can be done when the nitrates spike, besides a water change or is it just a ride it out type of thing?

[FishyFry]

I wouldn't expect a nitrate spike. Just make any changes slowly, in small amounts and over time...including big cleanups and water changes.

[Reefscape]

there is a good possibility that it could cause a small rise in nitrates..Nothing that the usual 10% water change will not sort out though...No need to worry about that...

Niko

[NapoliNewJersey]

If you think about it all the stuff was in the tank already, it's not like you added anything to the tank. And the easy way to find out is just test the water a couple hours after you clean and before you clean and check the results.

[FishyFry]

Well, now I think we really confused AngieW. No, Yes, Maybe.

[Germanman]

if u stir up a lot u can get a small spike but if care is taken and not much is stirred up u should be fine.

[Reefscape]

Well, now I think we really confused AngieW. No, Yes, Maybe.

What is the confusing part??.."Yes", it can create a small nitrate spike as stated in the thread.

Niko

[FishyFry]

What is the confusing part??.."Yes", it can create a small nitrate spike as stated in the thread.

Niko

What is so obviously NOT confusing? What IS confusing is, "Yes, it can, no it can't, maybe it could". I'm talking about the varied opinions in our responses. What the heck is she supposed to do? By now, she's figured it out for herself. :(

[Reefscape]

there is nothing confusing about a slight ammount of nitrate being released from scrubbing inside the tank....if you search the internet, it documented.

Niko

[dorkfish]

What is so obviously NOT confusing? What IS confusing is, "Yes, it can, no it can't, maybe it could". I'm talking about the varied opinions in our responses. What the heck is she supposed to do? By now, she's figured it out for herself. :(

FWIW, the fact is that saltwater aquariums are confusing. There will almost always be differing opinions on various issues. That's just how it is, you may not like that, but it's something everyone has to deal with and learn to figure out wich is right and wrong.

If there was no other changes made, and there was a spike in nitrate after cleaning the tank, then this did cause a nitrate spike. However, in minor weekly cleanings (scraping algae, blasting detrius from rocks) usually doesn't cause a noticable difference in water quality.

[FishyFry]

there is nothing confusing about a slight ammount of nitrate being released from scrubbing inside the tank....if you search the internet, it documented.

Niko


You might read my response again... seems like you're the one that is confused.

[Reefscape]

This stops now or the thread will get locked.

Niko

[New Reefer]

My oh my, the people and moderators have changed, but the attitudes are still the same...

Instead of being confrontational, rather address the issue so newbies reading this forum could learn.

Regardless of weather the "stuff" you're cleaning was in the tank before you started the cleaning, IF the cleaning operation has killed any organisms (e.g. coraline algae), and these dead organisms are not removed from the water, they will start to decompose, and will thus cause an increase in the amount of dissolved organics, ammonium, nitrite, and ultimately nitrate. Depending on the quantity of "organisms" killed in the cleaning process, the volume of water in the system, and the efficiency of the filtration system (be it live rock, a trickle filter, a fluidised bed filter, or whatever), the total amount of nitrogenous compounds may cause a serious spike, or an undetectably small increase - you should be able to judge this, knowing how much "stuff" you killed in the cleaning process...

Hope this helps to clear up the confusion :)

Hennie

[FishyFry]

This stops now or the thread will get locked.

Niko


I agree with new reefer, bad behavior on our parts. But if you want to really throw your weight around, go ahead and lock it. Mods don't scare me, when they know how to handle responsibility and authority. Your attitude as a mod is very scary however and I will make it a point to communicate this with the other moderators.

Meanwhile, to get back to the subject, my point was and still is, that our opinions are way too varied. If a person asks a question and receives these types of responses, just who the heck are they supposed to believe has the correct answer? Basically, they can pick one and hope for the best or ignore all. What good is that? This thread just happens to be only one example.

BTW, New Reefer, thanks for the reminder. I left this forum for awhile because of this stuff and now I'm as guilty as the rest.

[Blueiz]

I agree with new reefer, bad behavior on our parts. But if you want to really throw your weight around, go ahead and lock it.


No one is throwing anything around here. I personally dont see how you agree, yet want to argue the point, makes no sense.

It does NOT help the poster recieve a clear answer to there question for members to argue in a thread.

Opinons are opinions, just like facts, you cant argue with either. My suggestion would be if you want to state your opinions from experience, do so, and accept that others may have different experiences than you have had. If you want to state somethng as fact, then back it up with documentation from other sources.

One more off topic post, and this thread will be closed. Lets all respect each other..:)

AngieW good luck with your tank, sorry this thread has went a bit off topic..

Blue

[FishyFry]

Thank you, Bluiez, but I'm not agreeing or disagreeing and correct, it was off topic. My apologies... I will start another thread, if I choose to continue this discussion, but folks are missing my whole point anyway. Along a the this line, my complaint has been submitted to the Marine forum moderators.

[AngieW]

Well, I tested again last night, nitrates were still high. I've just done a water change and will do a test again in a bit to see if that helped. If my nitrates are still high, I'm sure you'll see me back here going "Waaaah!" ;)

And yes, it does get confusing sorting through the information, but I understand that this hobby is like everything and that people will have different (and passionate, lol) opinions so it's up to me to sort it out and decide which ones I'm most comfortable with. I'd love it if it were easy and someone could just transfer all the info to my brain by osmosis but sadly, that prayer has gone unanswered ;)

[AngieW]

AngieW good luck with your tank, sorry this thread has went a bit off topic..

Blue

Oh, no worries, I belong to several forums for different hobbies. These things happen no matter what the topic. Wouldn't the world be a boring place if we all thought exactly the same? :)

I do appreciate a variety of opinions, so thank you to everyone who tried to help me out. This learning process is kind of painful sometimes, but that's okay as long as I don't kill anything in the meantime!

[Subliminal]

I am having a huge nitrate spike right now. My Xenia closed up, and I knew something was wrong...lol.

I don't think cleaning the sides, like the glass will cause all that big of a spike, but if it was covered in mass amounts of algae (like a crazy bloom), it'd probably raise stuff when you scrub it off. Maybe phosphates or nitrates, who knows.

I had to pull out all my rocks to get a fish out lately...which really disrupted the sandbed, and MAN...fighting that nitrate!

I'm trying not to do my waterchanges too fast, but I did 10% yesterday afternoon and 5% this morning. Might do some more this afternoon.

But lesson learned...leave the bottom alone if you can. :)

[AngieW]

Waaah. So I tested and my nitrates are still showing at about 40. Eek. This after a slightly more than 10% water change and giving the water a few hours to settle. I'm at the point of believing I have filter issues. There's no filter in the actual tank, only in the refugium, and since we know squat about this thing, it's decided to work only intermittently in the past week. I took some pictures of the refugium set up, could someone identify what type of filter that is on the right so I can start researching (okay, this is my husband's department since I'm an engineering idiot) the optimum conditions for getting the system to run right?

Also, should I consider an in tank skimmer/filter?

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/babybookworm/IMG_4536.jpg http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/babybookworm/IMG_4531.jpg http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/babybookworm/IMG_4530.jpg

and because those are just ugly pictures, here's one more aesthetically pleasing now that the tank is clean, at least.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/babybookworm/IMG_4537.jpg

[Reefscape]

i can see the skimmer i there, but unsure of where the filter is located, maybe just how i am looking at the pictures..

I can see a lot of sponge in the sump...how often do you clean these sponges and how do you clean them? Sponges are notorious for building up nitrates on them and require a clean every week in tank water to keep the nitrate level under control...

Niko

[Subliminal]

I think the filter she's refering to IS the skimmer.

That's a protein skimmer. They basically suck up water and air and make bubbles, and the nutrients in the tank end up on top of that skimmer in the collection cup. It's like nasty black stuff.

With my skimmer, I need the 'microbubbles (the 1/2 of foam on the top of the water) right at the base of the collection cup, then the little bubbles occasionally bubble over the edge of the cup and after a while you get some nice black 'skimmate'.

Now, the one thing you want to be careful of is that sometimes the bubbles get too close to the top, and the cup can fill up and overflow. Or you might need to empty it every 15 minutes.

A good running protein skimmer will need to be dumped every few days to every few weeks, and the 'skimmate' should look like coffee.

Hope that helps.

Your best bet is to look on the side of that baby and see if there's a model # or name of a company, or whatever...then go to their site and download their manual.

:)

[AngieW]

Well balls, I didn't know that about the sponges. I didn't put them there, they came with the setup. I wonder if I should just take them out?

I don't think I have a filter, only the skimmer, I misspoke when I asked for an identification--I meant of the skimmer. Sorry!

[Reefscape]

lol....hey, its fine....personally, i would remove them..just my opnion of course...

Yes, the skimmer is fine where it..

Niko

[Subliminal]

NM:joe:

[Germanman]

tanks looking good! i would remove the bio balls as well.

[AngieW]

tanks looking good! i would remove the bio balls as well.

Okay, great, I'll do that. Just one question...what the heck are those? :read:

[Germanman]

lol sorry..i meant the sponges and any bio media. it should be replaced with live rock rubble. if u needed a sponge for lets say trapping bubbles, them make sure to rinse it under saltwater every week for cleaning.

[AngieW]

I have live rock rubble already in there, about how much is needed?

I will definitly be taking the sponge out, thanks everyone!

On a separate note, I'm such a fish geek already. I just spent 20 minutes taking pictures of my sea cucumber because he's out on a rock cleaning, and it's the first time he's been out like that. I even got a few of the goby hovering directly over him.

[Germanman]

um just enugh to fill the empty spots in..or how u like..its personal preference really.

lol hahha between my non fish buddies im know is Aqua Nerd...lol

[Reefscape]

lol hahha between my non fish buddies im know is Aqua Nerd...lol

really?...lol

[i_limantara]

tanks looking good! i would remove the bio balls as well.

germanman... i also has somethink to ask... i want to remove my bio balls slowly too... but then i can't find any life rock rubber...

what i have done now i just change my died rock become life rock 1/4 of my aqua.. and then i also made a refugium for my macro algae... and it's work for my nitrate...

next action is change 1/4 of my dead rock again become life rock... and then i start to remove my bio balls...

the question is... is it safe for my aqua... i just worried if it will increase my ammonia and nitrite

[New Reefer]

Sponges are notorious for building up nitrates on them and require a clean every week in tank water to keep the nitrate level under control...
Uh, if I may disagree on a technicallity... In a marine aquarium the filters should be cleaned in good old tap water. The reason for this is simple - you want to clean away the detritus AND kill the nitrate producing bacteria, and the chlorine in the tap water will do that just fine (unlike in a fresh water tank, where the sponges are part of the aerobic filter, and one would want to keep the bacteria alive).

Obviously your tank should have an adequate amount of denitrifying live rock (large pieces of rock work better than small pieces of "rubble") and/or a deep (live) sand bed. Lacking this, the nitrate producing aerobic bacteria will "out perform" the nitrate "eating" anoxic/anaerobic bacteria, and a nitrate build-up will be inevitable.

Also, when you cleaned the tank, did you disturb (stirred, or "vacuumed") the sand at all? If so, you've upset / killed the nitrate reducing bacteria in the sand, and this would result in a nitrate spike.

How long has the tank been set up, and what is the current bio-load (fish and corals)?

[5xevy]

Uh, if I may disagree on a technicallity... In a marine aquarium the filters should be cleaned in good old tap water. The reason for this is simple - you want to clean away the detritus AND kill the nitrate producing bacteria, and the chlorine in the tap water will do that just fine (unlike in a fresh water tank, where the sponges are part of the aerobic filter, and one would want to keep the bacteria alive).



With all due respect I have never seen it recommended to clean them in tap water. I would also never intentionally clean a sponge in any sort of liquid with chlorine in it knowing it's about to go back in my tank.

The sponges in marine aquariums also carry the "good bacteria." Some people have very little or no live rock at all (for example, one of my buddies). Some people do use mechanical and chemical filtration. Rinsing sponges off in tap water can rid them of this bacteria. Rinsing them in old tank water that'll not go back in your tank is recommended.

Here are some sites/people that recommend the same thing- rinsing in old tank water.

The second Q&A
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/spngfltfaqs.htm

See title: Excess nitrae
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaq4.htm

See titles: Filter help... canister... filter media... maint... 3/3/07
Canister filter inserts and Nitrate 5/16/05
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mcanfltmaint.htm

Nitrate Problems and New Beginnings - 11/14/2005
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaq10.htm

http://faq.thekrib.com/filters.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Discussion:Clean-a-Fish-Tank
http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/aquabasics.htm
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/mb/mb127.html

I can try to find more or "better" sites if you're seeking more information. If you have more info on rinsing in tap water, please share. I always enjoy learning new things and I'm sure others could benefit as well.

:)

[Reefscape]

Uh, if I may disagree on a technicallity... In a marine aquarium the filters should be cleaned in good old tap water. The reason for this is simple - you want to clean away the detritus AND kill the nitrate producing bacteria, and the chlorine in the tap water will do that just fine (unlike in a fresh water tank, where the sponges are part of the aerobic filter, and one would want to keep the bacteria alive).

I can only respectfully disagree aswell....This is one thing that was always drummed into when i first got into marine keeping and it is widely documented fact, especially by Bob Fenner whom i widely respect and take his words to be true. So, i shall be standing by my statement on this....Its no use me popualting this post with links, as 5XEVY has already got the point over...

Niko

[AngieW]

Also, when you cleaned the tank, did you disturb (stirred, or "vacuumed") the sand at all? If so, you've upset / killed the nitrate reducing bacteria in the sand, and this would result in a nitrate spike.

How long has the tank been set up, and what is the current bio-load (fish and corals)?

Nope, didn't dust the sand up, just cleaned the sides.

The tank is a well-established tank, around 3 years old at least, but it just came into my possession which is why I don't know anything about it!

The tank itself is 75 gallons with a clown, a yellow tang, two yellowtail damsel and a larger damsel--five fish total. Inverts include a serpent seastar, sea cucumber and a very few hermit crabs plus some unidentified crab that I rarely see. But I ordered some peppermint shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, and a few hermit crabs, hoping to get a more efficient cleanup crew in the tank.

[Reefscape]

But I ordered some peppermint shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, and a few hermit crabs, hoping to get a more efficient cleanup crew in the tank.

Sounds like a solid plan to me..It can only benifit the system more...

Any chance of some photos of the different inhabitants of the system?

Niko

[New Reefer]

I can only respectfully disagree aswell....This is one thing that was always drummed into when i first got into marine keeping and it is widely documented fact, especially by Bob Fenner whom i widely respect and take his words to be true. So, i shall be standing by my statement on this....Its no use me popualting this post with links, as 5XEVY has already got the point over...

I'm amazed... it must be very old documentation - do they also recommend using under gravel- and trickle filters? Please contact Bob, and clarify if what you read was meant in this context (I doubt it).

May I suggest that you think the following over logically, and it you're not convinced, then let's just agree to disagree :dance2:

Why is it not a good idea to have bio-balls or a trickle filter in a reef tank (remember, these were items highly recommended by the experts not so long ago...). Obviously because they are very good aerobic filters, and their use causes an increase in nitrates (they are not called "nitrate factories" for nothing...). The same goes for the sponge in AngieW's sump. It will trap detritus, AND act as an aerobic filter, as the water flowing through it will keep it well oxygenated. Thus, even if it is kept clean, as long as a healthy aerobic baterial population is growing in the sponge, it WILL produce nitrates.

Now, if this sponge was the only "filter" in the system, it would obviously be advantageous to keep it's bacterial population healthy, because it would be converting highly toxic ammonia into much less toxic nitrate. However, the tank under discussion has an established sand bed, AND live rock, both of which not only converts ammonia into nitrate through aerobic reaction (as would the sponge), but ALSO converts the nitrate into harmless nitrogen through the use of anaerobic (actually only anoxic...) bacteria in the oxygen poor regions deep within the live rock and deep sand bed. So, if it's a valid argument not to have a trickle filter or bioballs in a reef tank with live rock and/or deep sand bed, it is also valid not to encourage other aerobic only filtration areas, such as the sponge in question.

Hennie

[Reefscape]

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/spngfltfaqs.htm

See title: Excess nitrae
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaq4.htm

See titles: Filter help... canister... filter media... maint... 3/3/07
Canister filter inserts and Nitrate 5/16/05
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mcanfltmaint.htm

Nitrate Problems and New Beginnings - 11/14/2005
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaq10.htm

http://faq.thekrib.com/filters.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Discussion:Clean-a-Fish-Tank
http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/aquabasics.htm
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/mb/mb127.html


Niko

[New Reefer]

...Here are some sites/people that recommend the same thing- rinsing in old tank water.

The second Q&A
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/spngfltfaqs.htm

See title: Excess nitrae
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no3probfaq4.htm

See titles: Filter help... canister... filter media... maint... 3/3/07
Canister filter inserts and Nitrate 5/16/05
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mcanfltmaint.htm

I can try to find more or "better" sites if you're seeking more information. If you have more info on rinsing in tap water, please share. I always enjoy learning new things and I'm sure others could benefit as well. :)

OK, I've had a look at the first three sites. The first one is a recommendation for FRESH water aquaria - In most fresh water aquaria there is NO live rock or deep live sand beds, and most filtration is done using aerobic filters (UGF's, cannisters, etc.) In these filters, one obviously need the aerobic bacteria in the sponges, as they are the main filtration media in use!

The second and third links are about cannister filters in marine aquaria. Again, in the "bad old days" we relied on aerobic action cannister filters to do all the filtration, and ended up with rising nitrate levels, coil denitration filters, and large water changes - and even with these we could not keep many of the easier corals or more delicate fish alive for very long.

Of course, everyone is free to use "old technology" filtration in their tanks, but seeing that this is a Forum for beginners, I would suggest that we rather recommend the more modern methods, don't you think...

Hennie

[5xevy]

Those sites are abot 50/50 fresh/marine.

Here's another marine...

http://www.nhaquariumsociety.com/Articles/marine.html

I purposely did this to show that the same thing is recommended for both freshwater AND marine.

A lot of people, including ones on this forum, use canisters and HOB filters for their marine set-ups so washing the media in old tank water would still apply. Any media, even bio-balls. A lot of people use Pro-clears where you insert the pads on top of one chooses. Same thing.

I still welcome any info you can provide that recommends rinsing in TAP water for a marine aquarium.

:)

[Reefscape]

I agree....but, of course, this only my opinion, filtraion methods both old and new are still being used, and will be continued to be used. Its a personal preference..Some methods, all be it old, still work very very well in the marine aquarium. So, i ask myself, why redesign the wheel if there is no need?...

Yes, if an attached filter is going to make your system better, in your opinion, then by all means go down that route. But that does mean that you should disscount the tryed and proven methods that countless systems have been based on, and are still setup in that way....Like me for example..I chose the good old berlin method for filtration, i dont have any cannisters or hobs, just live rock and sand and its works just how it should do....Zero ammonia, zero nitrite and nitrates always below 5....What more do i need to so..??

Hence the reason why i will always recomend the old berlin method as i know from my own personal experience, that it works, and works very very well...

So, coming back full cirlce, as with most in marine keeping, its just a personal preference.

Niko

[New Reefer]

Oh, this is not going anyware...

People, PLEASE think - we are discussing modern reef aquaria - what is true for fresh water aquaria is NOT the best practise for a marine aquarium!

Suggesting the use of old technology such as cannister filters and/or HOB filters with media in them (your previously quoted links actually suggest REMOVING the bio-balls and emptying the HOB filter...) is also NOT the best thing to do in a forum targeted at beginner marine aquarists.

PLEASE, think about my previous posts logically, and at least have the decency to post proper counter arguments (with perhaps *some* scientific thought/knowledge) to refute my argument. It's after all not about who's right and who's wrong - it's about passing on sound knowledge to those beginners who are searching for answers to their problems (in this case the cause of elevated nitrate levels)

So, enough of this! Let whoever read these differing opinions make up their own minds - I'm done arguing.

[5xevy]

I'm not going to drag this out neither. I just wanted to throw in that I was not trying to argue and see nothing wrong with a friendly debate, which I thought that was. I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

AngieW- some of the best ways to cut down on nitrates are water changes (probably the most important), cutting down on feeding if possible, having an excellent cleaning crew, using a skimmer (definitely optional) and growing macroalgae.

It was hard to tell from your pictures but it looked like you had a little bit in your refugium. You can let that grow and when it gets too large trim it back (and feed it to your fish if they'll eat it!). The macroalgae will help absorb the nitrates.

:)

[FishyFry]

:look:

:hang:
:shark:

:coffee2:ya'll have been busy! :D

[AngieW]

My nitrates are still high, so I did take the sponges out, mostly because they were really nasty and I figured it couldn't hurt at this point. I'll test again this morning but I'm going to have to do another water change tomorrow. The only thing is, the cleanup crew is set to arrive this morning, and I wonder if I should do a water change before I add them?

I do appreciate all the opinions and advice, thank you :)

[Reefscape]

If your change water is ready to be use for water change, then yes, do the water change while the cleanup crew is acclimating..if its not ready, then just acclimate and get in the tank and do the water change as you had planned tomorrow...

post your up to date water test parameters when you test please Angie..

Niko