A Troubled Discus (what else is new)

[mklowkey]

Hello Discus Pros
I am looking for a little help - Actually it is a little Royal Turquoise Discus Fish that is in need of the help.

I have had him and a Tangereen Dream for about 2 weeks. The Tangerine is great but the Turq is having a rough time. He/She has gone from a brilliant color aray to a very dull blacky-purple. He is also very shy and does not eat (as far as I can see). I got two more discus yesterday and he has perked up a bit - actually flasher his colors from time to time but is still scetchy and settles a bit sideways at times.

Tank setup is as such:
85 G
Rena XP3
2 corol life 96w (loads of shade with drift wood and plants though)
Well Planted (a bit of algae on the wood and moss)
Temp - 82
PH - 6.5
Amonia - less than 0.25
Nitrate - less than 2.0
Nitrite - 0

I added an Ammo Lock just in case the amonia is an issue (truth be told I have been adding a great deal of food to try and stimulate eating)

I am doing a 10-20% water change a day.

Both the discus were eating fine until I made a big fuss in the tank removing 4 Gouramis on the advice of the LFS owner. I think the fuss was worse than the Gourami.

Any ideas would be great... Thanx

[Jack Walsh]

Hi,

You did not mention the water softness. When the ph is under 8, i find the more important criteria is the softness of the water.

[12 Volt Man]

any readable amount of ammonia can be very stressful to your fish. That would be the first area to look at.

start with some water changes and reduce feeding to get it down.

good luck!

[FishyMatty]

is he getting picked on? I have a ocean green baby discus that has only a few times shown nice color. Most of the time he is on the dark side. Just keep up the water quality and try to feed blood worms or black worms.

[mklowkey]

Thanx for the help - think the main issue is O2
I have a heavily planted tank that produces a great deal of O2 in the day but I found all of the fish in the tank huddled at the surface this morning (unfortunately the Turq was very dead on the bottom along with 2 Julies and 3 ammano shrimp)

Does this sound like an O2 problem to you guys?

I got a powerhead and adjusted my spraybar to increase movement.

The ammonia is a little high - will the ammo lock help?

I fear my fiance may have blundered a bit by cleaning the filter - could she have killed all the bacteria. She did not wash the mech filter but she did wash everything else.

Thanx

[12 Volt Man]

it is an 02 problem but only because of the ammonia.

ammonia can burn the fishes gills and prevent them from being able to take in oxygen.

In terms of putting dissolved oxygen into your tank via surface movement, you are fine with the Rena.

I think it is the ammonia that is causing the problems.

[mklowkey]

Will the Ammo lock help at all or should I can I do something else other than water changes?

thanx

[StarmanHDB]

Whatever you do, DO NOT DO ANYTHING RADICAL WITH THE WATER CHEMISTRY or else YOU WILL KILL the fish! Adjust your water chemistry SLOWLY! Keep up with the water changes....but up to 50% daily! This will help eliminate all of your ammonia. For juvenile discus, you may want to raise your water temperature to 84-86 degrees. You also may want to dim your lighting. As far as feeding, young discus should be fed 4 times a day until they are adult size when you can then feed them once a day and fast them for one day a week.

Don't believe me? Check out Cary Strong's website at http://www.greatlakesdiscus.com/ to see what he does with his discus. By the way, Cary is considered one of the hobby's top breeders of discus. He knows his stuff.

[mklowkey]

Thanx
I will keep up my 2 25% water changes a day and keep my fingers crossed. I'll also push the temp up a bit. In terms of feeding - they just arn't eating in this stressd out state should I keep offering or give it a rest for a day?

[Star_Rider]

2 -25% water changes may not be enough.

better to do 1 50% water change as the concentration of toxins is reduced more by a larger water change. sounds weird but it's true..
if you dpn't feel comfortable with a large water change do more than 25% twice..maybe 30-40% twice.
it will not eliminate all your ammonia..but it will reduce the amount to a level more tolerable. ammonia lock siply bonds an extra H molecule to NH3 rendering it into NH4 ammonium..less toxic form of ammonia..most kits test for total ammonia..(NH3+NH4)
O2 maybe the issue at .25 ammonia you may start seeing gill damage which may account for the "at the top of the tank"

are you injecting CO2?

if you are do you have it set to turn off at night..the plants wil respire(use O2) at night..and will compete for O2 with the fish. you can simply turn on an airstone at night(recommended with a warm tank) how long have the planted been established..I am actually surprised to see ammonia in a heavily planted tank as the planted prefer ammonia as a food source.

it is true young discus should be kept in water around 84-86 degrees and do need to be fed 4 X daily..(another reason for water changes) but nitrates should not be a big issue in a planted tank.

just curious..how many discus do you have?

discus are very social and do best in a groups ..more is merrier

[mklowkey]

Wow thanx again for all the info - sooo great!
I had 4 (now have 3 discus) Will get 5 total once this is solved. I will definately do more water changes as I have the time and don't want them dead! The tank has been planted for about 7 weeks. I was injecting Co2 but stopped the other day once this al started up. I found a very dead Julie cat under a log as I was doing my last water change - could this be enough to cause such a problem?

Thanx again

also - can anyone suggest a way to feed discus bloodworms without them drifting all over the tank (harder to clean in a planted tank...

[Star_Rider]

Wow thanx again for all the info - sooo great!
I had 4 (now have 3 discus) Will get 5 total once this is solved. I will definately do more water changes as I have the time and don't want them dead! The tank has been planted for about 7 weeks. I was injecting Co2 but stopped the other day once this al started up. I found a very dead Julie cat under a log as I was doing my last water change - could this be enough to cause such a problem?

Thanx again

also - can anyone suggest a way to feed discus bloodworms without them drifting all over the tank (harder to clean in a planted tank...

discus are foragers..they will seek the bottom of the tank for food.. there isn't much you can do about the bw drifting..but you could cut back on the amt or feed them a little at a time..my freaking discus eat out of a spoon...LOL

when the dominant male doesn't get enough he slaps the spoon with his tail...

I only feed them bw a few times per week..the rest of the time they get discus flake(OSI) they love that stuff and colorbits..

as far as CO2 being an issue..it is possible if the CO2 was up too high and running at night. they may have to compete for 02 with the plants and may get stressed..

[nickmcmechan]

wont the massive daily water changes dilute too much bacteria out and cause an ammonia spike?

[Star_Rider]

No..keep in mind the bacteria, for the most part, reside on fixtures in the tank..many of them reside in the filter material.
water changes won't have much effect on the beneficial bacteria in the tank. and frequent large water changes are par for the course with breeders. some of which use continuous water changes in the tanks(automated)
I don't consider 30-40 or even 50% a large water change.
the option in this case is to remove the ammonia or dillute it to a safe level. not doing this would be more harmful than large partial water changes.

[Dkarc]

wont the massive daily water changes dilute too much bacteria out and cause an ammonia spike?

No way. I do 90% daily water changes on all my tanks (twice a day on some tanks) and I have never had a problem with any ammonia spikes.

Bump the temp up, increase your water changes and add in salt (3-4 tablespoons per 10 gallons). See how he does with that treatment for a few days. Also, clean your filters to decrease your bio-load (which can help a lot). If no improvement then maybe next step is to treat for external parasites as most problems IMO start as parasitic and can develop into bacterial if left too long.

-Ryan
Orlando Discus