URGENT - BAD Bacteria in the tank...

[nanahachi]

Over a month ago I decided to start up a 20 gallon long...and after 3 weeks or so, I drained the tank (various reasons for this, which I'll skip for now) and started anew around May 3rd.

I started with new gravel ("black beauty"), filler the 20G long with water and bacteria, and added a few new plants & a few new rocks. In the past 2 months I've tried to track down pure amonia, but everywhere I call or go, there is only the kind with additives. So I attempted to do a fishless cycle using raw fish (salmon) meat (a piece 1/4" thick, about 1/2" wide, 1" long) which I read about here at AC. After a few days the salmon seemed to be breaking down a little bit. Perhaps a 4-5 days later I removed the salmon based on advice from the LFS--I cant remember what exactly...I'm pretty stressed and keep forgetting little details....But things remained static until May 14th, when I decided to get a few more plants. I wish i knew the name of them (I'll try to find out and add it later), but I bought 4 bunches of a long, grasslike plant, and 5 White Clouds in order to cycle the tank the Fishy way (because the salmon was not causing there to be any Amonia or Nitrite to be present in the tank). By that Saturday, May 18, my new plants had disintegrated into little pieces, no longer light green, but more of a yellowish brown. My amazon sword has also seen some battle damage, with many of its leaves now being transparent brown.

So on Saturday I rushed the remnants of my new plants into the LFS and they were perplexed, until i told them about the salmon. The LFS told me that by putting the salmon into the tank, that I had introduced the wrong kind of bacteria (the kind that will cause meat left on the counter to smell/decompose) into my tank, and now that virulent bacteria is attacking my plants. They generously gave me a bunch of new plants and I purchased some more of the Black Beauty gravel b/c my substrate wasnt thick enough. I went home, pulled my 5 white clouds out and put them into a 5 gallon bucket of tank water with the remaining live plants, and then did a 50% water change after adding the washed gravel. I replanted the tank, added the fish and rocks, and thought all was well.

Well today, 2 days later, some of my new plants are starting to lose some of their leaves...see the bushy ones in the middle of the picture below, the ones to the left of the giant onion looking plants

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid62/pdb3df22876d12e65500ee2efc880717b/fc1f3caf.jpg

See other pics here in my Imagstation Album (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290126923&idx=1)

So I dont know what to do. I thought that the water change would help. I dont want to lose all of the rest of my plants.

I hope you folks can save my tank.

Thanks, and I'm sorry if this made little sense. I'm a bit stressed and trying to do too many things at once.

[demon_surfer]

hmmm ok i think your LFS may have been leading you astray.

The bacteria that makes meat decompose is the bacteria you want (im almost sure).

I recently fishless cycled and it does take a little while for the cycle to begin to kick in. how many days did you have the salmon in the tank??

plus, the plant is unlikley to be dying from "bad bacteria" it is more likely that it did not have enough food, or the whiteclouds were eating it, or there was not enough lighting. I tried amazon swords in my tank and they died very fast because i had insufficent lighting...this was in an established tank.

Also more gravel is not really a good thing, unless you have an undergravel filter. but even soo too much can be bad.

please get back to us with
- what filters you have
- the pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels in your tank
- how much gravel you have in there (how deep it is in the tank)
- what tempurature you keep the tank at
- how long you had the salmon in for
- what sort of lighting do you have

[ChilDawg]

I'm with demon_surfer...I thought that bacteria that took care of rotting food such as shrimp and fish was what people wanted in their tank...

[kreblak]

I think that there may be some confusion going on between bacteria types. Nitrifying bacteria are what you want in a tank, I forget the name of the bacteria that breaks down ammonia, but Nitrobacter is responsible for breaking down nitrites.

It is my understanding that these two aerobic bacteria are different than the bacteria responsible for the actual breakdown and decay of meat. Meat will rot in open air as well as underwater, leading me to believe that there is a seperate organism responsible for the decay of protein, which produces ammonia as a waste product, which starts your nitrogen cycle by giving your biofilter (the good bacteria) enough ammonia to multiply in large quantities.

Now, regardless of whether or not nitrifying bacteria are responsible for the decomposition of meat, whatever does decay meat would not attack you tank flora. If a bacteria feasts on protein, it is going to have one heck of a hard time breaking through the celluloid walls of a photosynthetic plant's cells. I'm with Childawg and demon_surfer there, the LFS is incorrect.

[demon_surfer]

Kreblak you are probably right, but if it produces ammonia (the stuff working on the meat i mean) then it is the bactieria you want, because it creates ammonia that feeds the nitrifying bacteria and gets the cycle going. Im not sure if the bacteria that works on the meat to creat ammonia is the same that works on the solid waste in the tank (such as poop and food extra) though so hopefully someone who can provide a definate anweser will see this and post :)

[famman]

I've never heard of anyone using raw fish as a food source for nitrifying bacteria, I would not expect it to work very well. I would not expect the rotting fish flesh to host a very appetizing bacteria to produce the ammonia for the good bacteria. In addition, it is usually not necessary to cycle a planted tank, the bacterial eco system is completely different and you normally add fish immediately after planting.

I suggest:

A) Remove any dead meat still in the tank, do a thorough cleaning, do a big water change.

B) Add any new plants you want, stuff as many plants into the tank as you can.

C) Dose the tank with Maracyn 2 and kill off any nasties.

D) Dose the tank with Flourish, No-Salt and a little Epsom salt. Go to the Plant forum and read every post written by PlantBrain.

E) Look into using DIY CO2, it's easy and will show an immediate benefit.

good luck
:)

[ChilDawg]

This tactic is used a few times in the SW forums.

[nanahachi]

you guys are GREAT

famman, thank you especially for your clear steps to follow.

ok, my info:
Filstar XP1 cannister filter
Aquaclear 200 HOB
Hagen C02 cannister thingy for temporary CO2 -- will get more advanced soon, I just needed something for now.
Ebo Jager 125w Heater
JBJ Formossa-SS 65W Compact flourescent light.


* I think i had the salmon in the tank from 4-7 days...memory is kinda hazy right now.

*I have about 2-3" of Black Beauty gravel

* the pH has been around 7 or 7.2 lately. I just did a 50% water change on Saturday, so I was a bit more Basic today, but I just did another 25% water change and added acid buffer. The rotting plants (the bushy ones) have been completely removed from my tank.

*I will check the NO2 and NH3 levels ASAP. a few days ago the Amonia was btwn 0 and 0.6. Nitrite ...escapes me. ill update this Thurs night to fill in the blanks.

* tank has been around 80 degrees because of some really warm weather in CA, but I have the heater I just set at 75 or 76 i believe


I'd love to stock up on plants tomorrow, but the LFS is closed...maybe ill try to hit up another one.

I'm dead tired, and will check back later. again THANKS everyone

[famman]

P. S.

I would also

F) reduce the gravel depth to at most 3 inches.

G) double check the two rocks in your tank in the back on the right just to make sure they are not carbonaceous rocks that will raise your pH. You can use vineger or a few drops of Aquarium Pharmeceuticals Nitrate test bottle #1. If it fizzes, its bad.

good luck
:)

[nanahachi]

thanks again famman. i did check the rocks, they seem fine, and the gravel is somewhere btwn 2-3"

now ill be placing an order at bigals:

maracyn II
Flourish

anything else? any other must haves to get my planted tank going? i cant believe i spent so much on plants only to have them break down/dissolve

thanks everyone

[famman]

Plant seem to like

Flourish
Potassium (like in No-Salt - Potassium Chloride)
Nitrate (Grant's Stump Remover)
Phosphate (Fleet enema)
CO2

my plants grow so fast I have trouble keeping them trimmed back.

good luck
:)

[Rocketman]

To the question of bacteria...

It should die once the meat is removed. As kreblak stated, any bacteria that is adapted to decompose meat will likely not have any success on plants. Therefore, as far as I can gather, all it can possibly 'eat' is any waste, including extra food - although I'm not sure if it could do that either. It seems that the purpose of the bacteria introduced by the salmon was merely to add ammonia, (one thing your LFS will tell you is that decomposing bodies in a tank produce ammonia,) and get the cycle started. So, it seems the right length of time for the salmon to be in the tank would be however long it takes for your ammonia levels to begin declining. You would then remove the salmon, and in a short time most of that bacteria would be gone - just as it is when you remove a dead fish.

So, the cause of your plant's demise is more likely something to do with a lack of nutrients. Co2 could be it, (it seems like you have a lot of surface agitation, which integrates O2 into the water, replacing the Co2,) but your low pH levels indicate sufficient Co2, unless your water is already like that out of the tap.

[nanahachi]

wow, that was fast famman :D

bigals doesnt carry all of your suggestions, so I'll have to check around...if anyone has online suggestions, feel free to post them.

Are there any root tabs you guys might recommend? I read that swords tend to absorb nutriets from their roots...true? Are the AP Root Tabs sufficient?

Right now I'm using a stop-gap solution for CO2 -- the Hagen Hagen Plant-Gro CO2 Natural Plant System (http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=118&PROD_ID=01076900020101)
http://www.hagen.com/img/aquatic/products/a7690.jpg
It's just a basic canister filled with yeast and sugar, and produces a bubble of CO2 every 5-10 secs. But of course I'd rather have a CO2 cannister, with regular, reactor/diffuser, etc...are there any ways of providing CO2 that won't cost me hundreds of dollars? I only have a 20g tank, and I'm not sure I'm going to go Amano style heavily heavily planted...

EDIT:
wow thanks for the post RocketMan. what you said about the salmon was basically what I was thinking, and what I had read online. I think the LFS was wrong about the harmful nature of the bacteria, as I said above...but its all moot now, since I have my little white clouds providing amonia. :D

right now my surface agitation doesnt seem too bad. my aquaclear isnt creating much of a splash because I keep the water level pretty high. also, I have the outflow pipe from my XP1 about 1/3 down the tank from the top, and I set the flow rate pretty low to not having my fish blown all over the place.

Again, CO2 and fertilizer suggestions are most welcome

thanks everyone!!!

[wetmanNY]

I hope no one will be upset if I just mention that the idea of "bad" bacteria could not set any discussion off in a fruitful direction. It's a category like "nasties" in the gravel. The only "bad" bacteria I can think of are strains that produce diseases in our fishes.

And those are bacteria found everywhere in the aquarium.

Anaerobic bacteria have been made into a bugaboo and so cause many unnecessary worries.