Simple description

[Paulh_boats]

Could somebody please explain in simple, jargon-free terms what is needed for a marine fish tank, say 4 foot x 12in x 15in ?

- I know advanced chemistry, but little about modern tank hardware


What is relative cost or time spent for tropical/marine/reef?
- my guess is 1/2/4


Can I start marine with good DIY skills, advanced chemistry knowledge but only goldfish experience?

[kreblak]

The good news is that you actually NEED very little. Most items for SW are peripheral. What you will need is a good, deep substrate. Sand or crushed coral work best. The substrate will house the majority of bacteria which make up your biological filter.

You will need a heater that can keep up with the volume of water in the tank. For the domensions you described, it sounds like you will need about a 300 watt heater, perhaps a little more.

You will need Instant Ocean or another type of salt mix to make your water. You will also need a kit that tests for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, as well as a hydrometer to measure specific gravity. A chemistry background can only help you as well, especially since saltwater acts as a buffer.

You will definately need something to create a good current in the tank. Powerheads are good at this. Stagnant areas created by low water flow are bad. I would recommend getting a skimmer as well. DIY knowledge will come in handy, as SW equipment can get a little squirrelly on you.

Finally, you will need fish....and lots of advice from us!:D

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by kreblak
Finally, you will need fish....and lots of advice from us!:D

Not that we're cocky...but we are good at what we do!!! :)

[kreblak]

Upon rereading your post, I realized you had a few questions I didn't address. Saltwater aquaria can get expensive, and it is rather time consuming. You will need to stick to a rigid water change schedule. Some people do small weekly changes, others do larger monthly changes. I prefer monthly. You will need to make sure you are replacing evaporated water regularly. You will also need monitor your water quality very closely. SW fish are too expensive to lose because your ammonia levels spiked and you failed to notice! That's where the test kit comes in.

I am assuming you know the basics of saltwater marine ecology as I proceed. If you have any questions, please ask. Since you have only had goldfish experience, I feel that I need to mention that ammonia is much more toxic to SW fish than it is to FW.

Remember, the only bad question is one not asked.

[Paulh_boats]

Thanks everyone!. I just love specialist forums with friendly experts - isn't the net wonderful. BTW I'm in sunny UK. :)

I've been doing some homework and along with your advice getting to know the ropes. Local dealer sold me a great book "The New Marine Aquarium" M. Paletta which pushes live rock.

But live rock is expensive and I'm a little concerned about the environmental aspects - thats gonna spark off some healthy discussion. ;)

Dealer said live sand is experts only. Shame - one or two live rocks and active sand with lots of gods little creatures seems ideal. Hermits can just as much fun as a fancy fish.

Seen a web site about zero impact (ZI) reef with DIY rocks, cement and crushed shells. Now if I could start that way add lots of the borrowing snails, crabs, shrimps it would be fun. Only when its a stable eco system with good chemistry would I consider fish or soft coral.

There again wifey made a good comment - freshwater is cheaper when it all goes horribly wrong, although we would not want to loose a single fish of course.

[Corax]

Originally posted by Paulh_boats
Dealer said live sand is experts only.

That is what we American's call, a load of CRAP! A DSB is so easy to maintain its scary.

Take tank, add sand, add saltwater... That's pretty much it... =) The sand can either be bought as livesand or it will become livesand once liverock sits on it. The easiest thing you can think of, yet also the most critical to a healthy, stable tank..

Welcome to the salty side of the pond ;)

[Paulh_boats]

Kreblak, yes I understand the saltwater ecology, nitro cycle. My wife kept tropical fish as a kid.

The big decision is whether we have the extra time for saltwater over fresh. Won't know till we try. :confused:

Perhaps better to start tropical, if that works well then consider marine.

BTW This all started with redecorating the front room, new paint, new carpet, sexy black leather furniture on order, cleared all the junk out of the room, stuck TV way in corner because I hated it dominating the room. Ah....we need a focal point along an empty wall and we chose Tropical fish.

Went to local aquarium store and was instantly shocked/wowed by the beauty and color of a reef system.

[Paulh_boats]

Corax, thanks, its good to get straight to the point. :)

My actual question to the dealer was can I use sand to filter and just say 5lbs of live rock to kick start a 4 foot tank.
He said theoretically yes but not for beginners.

[Boogiechillin]

Originally posted by Paulh_boats
My actual question to the dealer was can I use sand to filter and just say 5lbs of live rock to kick start a 4 foot tank.
He said theoretically yes but not for beginners.

...because he'd much rather sell you a big, clunky mechanical filter that has you coming back every 3 weeks for new cartridges. ;)

There's nothing tricky or difficult about using live sand & live rock. (FYI, you might find this referred to as the Berlin system in your reading). If anything, this is easier and more reliable than using a mechanical filter as much less can go wrong and there is less upkeep involved. Best of all, a Berlin setup filters more effectively than any mechanical filter. It's just a matter of surface area for nitrifying bacteria - compare the surface area of a big, convuluted & porous piece of rock to the surface area of a filter cartridge. The true advantage is that the porous rock and deep sand bed allow for anaerobic regions where DEnitrifying bacteria can thrive, converting harmful nitrate that would otherwise necessitate heavy water changes into harmless nitrogen gas that slowly bubbles out of the tank. Yes, it's definitely a heavy investment up front, no arguing with that, but in the long run, using live rock (LR) and live sand (LS) is definitely the way to go, ESPECIALLY if you're toying with the idea of keeping invertebrates. Their sensitivity to nitrate practically dictates this kind of setup for long term success.

Spend a little time browsing around the articles on www.wetwebmedia.com - I like my tropical tanks, but SW is much more satisfying and MUCH more attractive as a room centerpiece.

[BrianH]

In my experience a SW tank can be less maintenance than FW. The SW will take more effort to research and start up, but once it is up and running the maintenance compared to my old planted tank is easy. No filters to clean/change media, no gravel to vacuum(when a DSB is used), no plants to trim(a weekly chore in a healthy planted tank). After your tank is established(after 6 - 8 months) you basicly only need to perform a water change every 1 to 4 weeks. Some reefers never change their water, they only perform top offs to replace evaporation. If you really watch your tank, you even don't need to perform water tests too often. Your inhabitants will tell you if there is something off by chamging from their normal routines. In my experience, my reef tank is much less work than my old FW planted tank.

Brian

[VoodooChild]

I just basically wanted to re-affirm what Brian said. I spend much more time on my planted FW tank than I do with my SW. My tank is only 2 1/2 months old and I still only really spend about an hour a week for tests and a 10% water change. It's definantly worth it to fit it into your schedule.

[Paulh_boats]

Thanks all, especially the comments about spending less time on SW. :cool:

I am I correct then -

1) Start with sand bed and an affordable 5lbs of live rock (NOT an expensive 70lbs of live rock)
2) When chemistry right make the sand live...
3) When stable check chemistry again.....then add fish


I'm assuming live sand + a little live rock is a much cheaper but effective alternative to dead sand and a ton of live rock.

[Paulh_boats]

Check this out:

http://www.paraquatics.co.uk/ecosystem.htm

Comments?

[Corax]

Originally posted by Paulh_boats
Thanks all, especially the comments about spending less time on SW. :cool:

I am I correct then -

1) Start with sand bed and an affordable 5lbs of live rock (NOT an expensive 70lbs of live rock)
2) When chemistry right make the sand live...
3) When stable check chemistry again.....then add fish


I'm assuming live sand + a little live rock is a much cheaper but effective alternative to dead sand and a ton of live rock.

ANY liverock is going to help, but 5lbs is a drop in the bucket. If that 5lbs is purchased locally, you can expect $7-8/lb which makes it $35-40.. www.gulf-view.com has 30lbs of the best stuff you can find for $139.. Do the math on which is the better bargain ;)

[ChilDawg]

Um, Corax, I'm doing the math, but have you factored in shipping? It's expensive to ship LR, and it's expensive to ship 30 lb. things...and it's even more expensive to ship 30 lb. things that are in a large amount of water and need to get there alive. Is it still a good deal after all of that?

[BrianH]

Chilidawg check it out gulf-view (http://www.gulf-view.com) . Dale raised his price a little($133.95 for 30lbs shipped next day air to your door) but it is still a great deal.
The only problem is that I believe Paulh_boats lives across the pond in the UK and I don't think gulf-view shipps across the pond. I remember a thread a while ago (on which board I can't remember) where a fellow from the UK posted a link to carribbean live rock sales in the UK. I'll try to find it and post alink for paul.

Brian

[BrianH]

Paul,

Here is that link to the caribbean LR in th UK I mentioned. Good Luck.

http://www.reefkeeper.co.uk/acatalog/Carribean_Live_Rock.html

[ChilDawg]

Thanks for clearing that up, BrianH!

[kreblak]

I know that the UK has strict animal importation laws, you might have to check with customs to make sure that you can have LR shipped in from outside the country.

[BrianH]

The link I posted is to a company located in the UK. Any import matters would have been resolved by them before resale.

Brian