UGF Setup

[Hooked Newbie]

Ok, after doing a big water change today (still battling high Ammonia) and losing one of my Gourami :O(, I am convinced that I need a UGF. The amount of gunk was incredible and I've been vacing and doing water changes at least once everyday for a week! These may just be more dumb newbie questions, but I'd appreciate any help. Is there anywhere on line that you know of with a schematic, drawing, or picture of a complete installed UGF system? I bought what I thought I needed awhile back and after opening the box and reading what I could on the setup, took it straight back due to pure intimidation. Also, a list of any (all) recommended equipment would be hugely useful. Just so you know, I believed everything I was told at the pet store and am now cycling with fish. I bought a 10G today to house the fish and plants while I install the UGF. Help a newbie save his fish?!

[Rbishop]

If you decide to add a UGF, please make sure it is a RUGF, reverse flow.

You will start with something that looks like this...

http://www.petsolutions.com/48+X+13+Undergravel+Filter-I-47437480-I-C-25-C-.aspx

The white plates sit directly on the tank bottom and the clear lift tubes will need to be cut for the height of your tank.

You will need to "drive" the RUGF by powerheads or the output (return line) of a canister filter. The powerheads that I recommend are...

http://www.petsolutions.com/Penguin+Powerheads-I-47468550-I-C-42-C-.aspx

...specifically the 660R.

[kasslloyd]

the 10gal will be completely uncycled.. so you'll need to transfer over as much filter media to the new 10gal as possible. Ideally if you have HOB filter on it just put it on the 10gal. But you'll set yourself back futher on the whole cycleing adventure then you are now (more risk to your fish, more deaths) imho.


As for the UGF I believe in the the other thread the advice from the person advocating them said he would use RUGF setup instead. And I have no idea what the best way to set one of them up is, if i was going to do it I would get a Can filter for the tank like a Rena xP2 or xP3 and pump the output of the filter down the lift tubes for the UGF...

As for a power drive powered UGF I'm fairly sure that a good bio-wheel HOB filter will out perform and be better for your tank, and i'm 100% sure an air bubble driven UGF will be very bad in comparison.

You state that "amount of gunk was incredible" which if you was using a regular UGF that gunk would still be there just getting pulled under the gravel to rot. You'd still have to "flush" the UGF (suck large volumes of water quickly out of the lift tubes) and vacuum the gravel with regular water changes (more work) to keep the UGF healthy. Even with a RUGF this matinace is probably necessary. Although if you prefilter with a good can filter it may be better (but then again why use a RUGF if you have a good can filter anyway?).

Anyway, I think changing filter types mid-way through your cycle is going to be the worst thing you can do for your fish.

Find a retailer of "BioSpira" and get that and get a decent HOB filter or better yet a decent can filter, and follow the directions on the BioSpria bottle and your tank should cycle in a few days. (make sure you find a retailer that keeps it refrigerated and keep it refrigerated, and if all else fails order it online like at Foster & Smith).

[Hooked Newbie]

Thanks Bob! My tank is 12" x 24". Should the filter be an exact fit to those dimensions? Will the reverse mode remove the undergravel debris? Driven by an air pump?

[Hooked Newbie]

Thanks Kass, Wow! More to think about... So you would recommend just upgrading my HOB (Penguin 150, I think) to an XP2 Canister and adding Biospira? Any setup tips for the XP2 or extra parts / pieces I'll need with it? I like that possibility (afraid of killing my fish), but I think any new tanks I set up (planning a future 55) will include the RUGF + a canister.

[Rbishop]

In the reverse mode you won't be using an air pump to drive the plates; it will be by powerhead or canister discharge.

The reverse flow pushes substrate debri into the water column to be removed by the canister or HOB.

The advantage is you utilize the entire substrate as a biological filter.

It is amazing how many folks who have never used them are so set against them and just repeat things they have heard. In 30 yrs of UGF and more recently, I have never had one "clog" or had issues with rotting stuff under the plates. But chose what you want.

[jm1212]

if you are having problems with junk coming out of the substrate, you may notve rinsed the gravel enough.

[kasslloyd]

either filter you choose you should use BioSpira to jump start your cycle, it may safe the remaining fishes lives (and sooner the better, now NOW if you can)

Quickest way would be to just get a better HOB and hang it on the back with your existing one and then introduce the biospira

once everything stabalizes you could remove your old HOB if you wish.

If you choose to do the UGF/RUGF route you'll have to empty the tank, and substrate and all that jazz.

You could also introduce a can filter along with your existing HOB and do the same thing, add biospira and once everything stablizes remove the HOB.

People recommend you buy two doses worth of biospira and dose once and store the second dose in your frig and then once nitrites spike add the second dose. Cause in an uncycled tank there won't be much nitrites for the bacteria that eat them to live and they could/may/would die off before the amonina eating ones get established to produce nitrites. Thus the need for the second dose.

Stay away from the other "bacteria in a bottle" products

but imho the safest approch for your existing tank is to add the biospira and most likely upgrade your filtering system at the same time.

[Hooked Newbie]

Thanks. I ran out and bought an XP2 and it's already setup, but did not come with the bacteria media so I'm headed out tomorrow. I won't be able to get the biospira until tomorrow if I can find it (only 1 decent FS in the area). I appreciate the advice on dosing twice. It may be too late for my Red Dwarf Gourami though. He quit swimming and would just let the current take him away until he came to rest against something. I've QTd him and now he has a strange white fluffy discharge and is only going to the surface to breathe every now and then. I'm feeling guilty, but after reading all of the threads on Dwarf Gourami illnesses I'm beginning to suspect something that was already there. The three dwarves I got from the tank he was in have all had problems (2 died), everyone else is apparently thriving even though I'm still fighting the readings. Thanks again for pitching in to help a newbie!

[Rbishop]

Bio Spira has ammonia and nitrite bacteria in it, not just one.

[kasslloyd]

Bio Spira has ammonia and nitrite bacteria in it, not just one.

true, but in a tank without nitrite (like a new uncycled one) the nitrite eating ones quite possibly will die before the amnonia eating ones make enough to sustain them, thus the double dose thing. ;-)

Second dose on the nitrite spike.. may not always be the case, but it's kinda better to have a little left just in case, imho.

[Star_Rider]

true, but in a tank without nitrite (like a new uncycled one) the nitrite eating ones quite possibly will die before the amnonia eating ones make enough to sustain them, thus the double dose thing. ;-)

Second dose on the nitrite spike.. may not always be the case, but it's kinda better to have a little left just in case, imho.

not likly..the nitrifying bacteria begin consuming and producing waste within hours.
meaning the bacteria that consume ammonia will produce waste to feed the bacteria that consume nitrite..within hours of feeding.

this is why you need to feed the nitrifying bacteria immediately upon adding them.
basically plop the fish in add biospira..

[Hooked Newbie]

Ok, Bio stars & additional bio media added into the XP2, biospira added (2nd dose available if needed). 1/2 hour after add- Ammonia is still reading high, Nitrite=0, Nitrate=5, PH was lowered to 6.5. I'm going to retest late tonight to see if I show any improvement. Thanks for all the advice and keep your fingers crossed for me! :O)

By the way... is low alkalinity (30) or low water hardness (75) a big problem? How can they be increased safely?

[Star_Rider]

is that your normal pH?

are you adding ammonia to a uncycled tank with bio-spira?
(you can add bio spirat to a tank with fish in it to cycle )

stay on top of the water parameters some times bio-spira doesn't work

[Hooked Newbie]

Slightly below normal for the pH. I've not added ammonia, it's been high and I've been doing lots and lots of water changes (knew nothing about cycling and took some bad information as truth). I believe I was under filtered before, I'm hoping the addition of the Xp2 along with the bio media and biospira helps. I'm testing multiple times a day with an API kit.

[Rbishop]

Give us an update with readings soon!

[chris331]

xp2 should help, but it won't fix your problem right away. partial water changes, testing your water, and patience will be the key!

best wishes with your tank!

[Hooked Newbie]

Ok...

6 Hours after Biospira
Nitrate: 5
Nitrite: 0
Hardness: 50
Alkainity: 30
PH: 6.6
Ammonia: 4.0

Just did a 50% water change / Gravel vac... Worried about losing all benefits of biospira if I do more.

[chris331]

i hate to recommend addatives, but if you're worried about your fish dying, try adding some amquel to help nutralize the ammonia and nitrites until your tank cycles. not a cure, just a temporary remedy to help with that high ammonia.

and you're right about not wanting to change too much water as it will just keep the cycle process going longer. i over stocked my first tank when it wasn't cycled and it was a mission to keep the levels in check and let the tank cycle. give it time, and it will all take care of itself.

[Hooked Newbie]

Thanks Chris. I read that the Amquel (I have some) will kill the biospira so I think I'm gonna let it go at least overnight.

[Rbishop]

Water change will not affect the cycle. Provided you waited about an hour and had sufficeint filtration turnover, you won't affect the bio spira.

[Hooked Newbie]

Thanks! That's a load off, I waited about 6 hours and now have ALOT of turnover. Still alot of gunk in the rocks though. I think I'll probably bug you in the future for RUGF advice...

[Derringer]

Bio-spira is not going to work within hours not even over night! If your ammonia is high you need to do water changes until you get it down. Try not to over medicate your water, it can and usually will get you into more trouble than you already were in.

[kasslloyd]

The bacteria in the biospira will very quickly attach to a hard surface and start multiplying there. Depending on a wide rage of variables the length of time it takes for them to multiply to the levels neccesarry to handle your bioload could take more then 24 hours, maybe even a day or two.

The bacteria that come in biospira will not live in the water column very long, so they quickly attach and start growing on every surface they come in contact with (like in your filter).

I presume the source where you got the biospira it came refrigerated and you kept it refrigerated from the time of purchase until you added it to your tank?

[Star_Rider]

I presume then that the ammonia is from live fish?

at 4.0 that is too high and you need to do a serious water change..

bio spira works well but not at that high of ammonia..in essence it won't handle that quick enough to keep the fish safe.