View Full Version : Who disagrees with this?
Jessu
05-28-2007, 10:52 PM
20 for first fish 10 for every additional fancy goldfish.
Generally gets around 6in.
And for Commons
40 for first and 20 for every additional.
Generally gets around 12in.
Rbishop
05-29-2007, 4:56 AM
Me. I think they are on the low side. Probably more than sufficeint initally. I also think tank shape comes into play.
question of thriving or surviving ?
GoldLenny
05-29-2007, 6:38 AM
That's a good starting point but even round-bodied goldfish need much more than the 20/10G for long term survival. A 6" - 8" full grown adult round-bodied goldfish is equal in body mass to hundreds of 1" goldfish. Would you put hundreds of any 1" fish in a 20G tank? Even the fish-killing 1" rule would only suggest 20" of fish. Here is a chart from http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4468/weight.html which shows that a 5" goldfish weighs around 13 oz compared to 0.1 oz for a 1" goldfish... 130 times more than the 1" goldfish. Since they should eat 1% of their body mass each day as adults, they are still putting out 130 times the poop waste as well as the ammonia from gill function and urine and the high CO2 levels. 20G simply is not enough water for long term success... but it's a good start and after a year or two, people will love their goldfish enough to hopefully buy a MUCH larger tank... preferably 30-50G per round-bodied goldfish.
http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/3315/2259148180070613611S600x600Q85.jpg
20 for first fish 10 for every additional fancy goldfish.
Generally gets around 6in.
And for Commons
40 for first and 20 for every additional.
Generally gets around 12in.
I don't disagree with that.
As long as cycling is complete and maintenance is performed, it's fine! I post on a board that is just for goldfish enthusiasts, and that's the rule they go by.
I'm sure my dogs would enjoy a bigger yard, but they are just fine.
My kids would probably "thrive" even more with an extra few acres, and a vacation condo in Palm Springs.
Except that commons can and do get to be much larger than 12 inches. 12 inches for a common goldfish is stunted.
If I kept commons in 10 gallon tanks forever I would probably say they never get to be larger than 3 inches, but that is wrong.
For any goldfish I would say a min of a 4 foot long tank to start to have it truely healthy and long lived.
GoldLenny
05-29-2007, 5:49 PM
I don't disagree with that.
As long as cycling is complete and maintenance is performed, it's fine! I post on a board that is just for goldfish enthusiasts, and that's the rule they go by.
I'm sure my dogs would enjoy a bigger yard, but they are just fine.
My kids would probably "thrive" even more with an extra few acres, and a vacation condo in Palm Springs.
Unfortunately, there are many goldfish specialty forums that have BAD information about goldfish care on them. I've seen them and spent lots of time discussing and debating the issue with the authors. It all started years ago when they thought they were doing a good thing by saying 10G per goldfish (which was a huge increase from the goldfish bowl) and they don't want to now admit they were wrong all these years with the 10G recommendation. The simple fact as that chart shows is that goldfish get much too large for 20G per goldfish.
I still recommend the minimum sized tank to start with would be a 55G 4' long tank which would home 2-3 round-bodied goldfish for the first couple of years and then people would be willing to spend even more money on a larger tank once they see how big and beautiful their fish get. 55G tanks are a very popular size and can be purchased new for $1.00/gallon on sale or used much cheaper. I've seen them for FREE on Freecycle.org
I've been working on my own Goldfish care sheet on my blog which has links to many different website care sheets that have ranges from pitiful information to really good information just to give you an idea of what's out there on the net. Unfortunately, if someone finds one of those BAD care sheets, they are destined to have many health problems. http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/03/goldfish-care-sheet-fancy-goldfish.html
I went to the geocities site. I'm mathamaticly retarded, but I think I got it.
You basically cant go by just their length you have to go by their roundness. Because they are round they produce loads more waste and that is why they need more then 20g per fish. And a full grown goldfish is like having 130 1 in goldfish.
Derringer
05-29-2007, 8:35 PM
If you have enough filtration 10x + turnover, plus you do proper maintenance; you shouldnt have any problems using those calculations.
Unfortunately, there are many goldfish specialty forums that have BAD information about goldfish care on them. I've seen them and spent lots of time discussing and debating the issue with the authors. It all started years ago when they thought they were doing a good thing by saying 10G per goldfish (which was a huge increase from the goldfish bowl) and they don't want to now admit they were wrong all these years with the 10G recommendation. The simple fact as that chart shows is that goldfish get much too large for 20G per goldfish.
I still recommend the minimum sized tank to start with would be a 55G 4' long tank which would home 2-3 round-bodied goldfish for the first couple of years and then people would be willing to spend even more money on a larger tank once they see how big and beautiful their fish get. 55G tanks are a very popular size and can be purchased new for $1.00/gallon on sale or used much cheaper. I've seen them for FREE on Freecycle.org
I've been working on my own Goldfish care sheet on my blog which has links to many different website care sheets that have ranges from pitiful information to really good information just to give you an idea of what's out there on the net. Unfortunately, if someone finds one of those BAD care sheets, they are destined to have many health problems. http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/03/goldfish-care-sheet-fancy-goldfish.html
"Bad information" is subjective. I know many people who have healthy fancy goldies going by the guidelines above. My two started out in a 20L, now I have them and a third in a 55. They get PWC about every other day, and the best of foods. They are healthy and show every sign of being happy.
GoldLenny
05-30-2007, 9:19 AM
"Bad information" is subjective. I know many people who have healthy fancy goldies going by the guidelines above. My two started out in a 20L, now I have them and a third in a 55. They get PWC about every other day, and the best of foods. They are healthy and show every sign of being happy.
The majority of people do not do PWC's every other day. In your case, you are "artificially" making your tank appear larger to the fish by reducing the hormone and pollution levels by doing frequent PWC's. "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".
If someone only wants to do weekly PWC's, then a 55G will not work. If your fish grow to full size and live around 20 years, then you should pat yourself on the back for being so diligent with your PWC's.
You should also consider one of the advanced chemical filtration products like Purigen. It's much more advanced than carbon and it does not leech phosphates into your water. It's rechargeable using bleach to clean it so it's more cost effective. It's an off-white color that turns dark brown as it gets "dirty", so you can tell how often you need to recharge it. It even helps remove nitrates from the water column as well as DOC's. It was originally invented for SW fish keepers since their fish/corals are so much more sensitive to water quality issues.
I have been doing every other week 50% and my water tests great. I guess thats because they are still small though.
musho3210
05-30-2007, 7:13 PM
mine is 30 gallon minimum for 1-2 goldfish (since 30 gallons is large enough for the filtration needs of goldfish, it is large so there is good swimming space, it is wide so that is good for pot bellied goldfish, and goldfish are social fish. Plus it is easier to sustain a low temp in larger bodies of water/thicker glass that 30 gallons can give you)
10 gallon per fish after that.
GoldLenny
05-31-2007, 9:25 AM
I have been doing every other week 50% and my water tests great. I guess thats because they are still small though.
What is the KH and GH of your water? Right now, while the tank is new and the fish are small, things might stay stable for two weeks but you should probably get in the habit of doing weekly 25% PWC's to keep the water parameters more consistent. Your KH level will likely drop quite a bit after two weeks (unless you have really hard water) and then when you do a 50% PWC, it will alter your parameters a lot more than necessary. I don't like doing more than 25% at a time so it keeps the water parameters more stabile. If you have medium to soft water with a low KH, waiting too long could cause a drastic pH crash when the KH gets too low.
What are your test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH and GH and temperature?
fballguy
05-31-2007, 11:40 AM
I have been doing every other week 50% and my water tests great. I guess thats because they are still small though.
Be very careful. Just because the water looks good on tests does not mean it really is good. There are many things you can't test for, one of those things is hormones which can stunt your fish.
I thought that the amount of nitrates also reflects the stuff you cant test for.
fballguy
05-31-2007, 3:16 PM
Sure it might reflect dead organic matter, rotting matter, ect. But not hormones, other chemicals, ect.
musho3210
05-31-2007, 5:32 PM
there are tests for hormones and stuff, just either really expensive and/or not available to the hobby. There used more in medical studies.
there are tests for hormones and stuff, just either really expensive and/or not available to the hobby. There used more in medical studies.
Do you know any more info about these tests?
musho3210
05-31-2007, 8:59 PM
no, but medical studies are using hormonal tests on animals etc (to find what level hormones they have, also used on humans when medical attention is desired) and other chemicals, depends on what chemicals but it shouldnt be that hard since forensics science tests for many chemicals. Like there may not be a pesticide test at your lfs but you could get one at a more hi rate store.
GoldLenny
06-01-2007, 8:25 AM
I thought that the amount of nitrates also reflects the stuff you cant test for.
No. Nitrates is something we can test for and is one of the indicators that lets us know we need to do a PWC (to lower them). Nitrate is the end product of the Nitrogen Cycle (ammonia>nitrites>nitrates) so whenever nitrates get to 40ppm, you should do a PWC. It is even better if you can keep nitrates below 20ppm but they really don't become dangerous unless they are well over 100ppm.
Here is a long article all about Nitrates (written by a very experienced fishkeeper) and is a good read since high nitrates can also indicate many other things to look for in your tank. http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/nitrates-long-explanation-thanks-to.html
As others have said, nitrates do not reflect the many other biological and chemical processes taking place in our tanks that we cannot test for. We can only read the many studies being done in the aquaculture industry (where they have more money to spend on these studies) and learn from them.
Nitrates of course can be artificially lower in a planted tank as the plants use them as a food source. Also water conditioners like Prime can affect how the show up on tests sometimes.
Plants shouldn't be too much of a problem with goldfish though, since they would long since be eaten.
GoldLenny
06-01-2007, 5:13 PM
Plants shouldn't be too much of a problem with goldfish though, since they would long since be eaten.
I've thoroughly interrogated my goldfish using tactics developed at Gitmo and they both swear they did not eat my plants. They blame it on my lack of a green thumb. :headshake2: LOL