Reef Log with Comedy

[dingo_53]

http://www.z-tags.com/transfer/fish/2007-JUN-06_tank.jpg

I'm an Australian living in Southern China. I've just given my stingrays to a friend and decided to turn my 220G tank into a salty.

Now, I have no experience in marine tanks except what I have learned in hours of reading this forum. There are a few shops around here with very poor quality equipment and I can't communicate in Chinese at a level that will allow me to discuss much with them. Even if I could, I'm sure they would answer "yes" to every question I had that involved the exchange of money.

I thought it might be fun to post my progress and perhaps provide a laugh or two when I make some stupid mistake.

So far, I have a 220G tank. It has a lot of sand from when I had my rays which I have left in the tank. I have added the salt and have the salt level right.

The tank has two large existing cannister filters. Yesterday I went to a shop and got some live rock pieces which were smashed into small pieces in front of me. I gave them a quick wash and filled both cannisters with live rock.

My question is, at this early stage, can I put the 200 lbs or so of live rock in the tank or should I wait for skimmers and a chiller, the water is about 27c now.

I just got a call from the shop to say they are delivering 130 lbs of live rock on Friday. Slight mis-communication. I can get them to hold if I need to.

If it goes in now water will be okay, but 27C and only the two cannister filters running with about 150 watt halide light and a moon light which I assume is meant for nightime.

I have two remoro pro skimmers on the way from the states amongst other goodies, like a wave maker, power heads etc.

Please help me to move to the next step and decide whether to put the rock in now. I'm gonna take my time before I introduce fish and try to be sure everything us just right..

[Reefscape]

My question is, at this early stage, can I put the 200 lbs or so of live rock in the tank or should I wait for skimmers and a chiller, the water is about 27c now.

Yes, get the rock in there now and get the cycle started. You may aswell make use of the running system. When the other equipment arrives, just connect up..


If it goes in now water will be okay, but 27C and only the two cannister filters running with about 150 watt halide light and a moon light which I assume is meant for nightime. How many halide light units are there on the lighting unit altogether?

This has the potential to become a beautifull and outstand reef and your cenrtainly off to a good with size....

One thing i want to make clear though...NOBODY will laugh at a mistake, if they do, i hope they can also laugh at their own mistakes....

We are here to help you through each step of the way with getting your system running to hopefully stop any mistakes before they happen...

Keep us up to date with your progress..

Welcome to AC and welcome to the world of marines...

Niko

[dingo_53]

Thanks Niko.

I really appreciate your advice and encouragement.

Ha, I had a dream the other night that the tank was pitch black and all I could see were two green eyes in darkness.

I'll post a photo when I get the rock in there.

I just have one small light and will have another the same tomorrow.
So there will be two giving a total of 300W. I think I need about 600W total for the tank but I was wondering if 300W is enough for the live rock to get started. The tank is fairly deep at 32 inches. How far should the halide lights be from the rock?

Thanks again, really appreciate your help

[Reefscape]

one thing to bear in mind is that each halide unit will cover 2 feet in tank length, so, i would suggest you need three lights all together...Distance from the water, well, anywhere between 6 - 8 inches is ample distance between water surface and halide....

Niko

[dingo_53]

Thanks niko.
How about the distance between the halide and the rock?
Is that important?

Thanks,
Dave

[Reefscape]

its not really the distance from halide to rock, its the distance between halide and water level....

its very important, a few reasons are the heat levels that will be associated with the lights being too close to the water for a massive ammount of evaporation, and also you have to bear in mind that old splash factor....

Hope that helps better Dave

Niko

[cweber]

This is going to be an awesome tank!

[dingo_53]

Thanks for all your help and encouragement.
Really appreciated

[Linariel]

That is an amazing tank and stand. Good luck with everything, please keep us posted!

[Coralaholic]

Where exactly in Southern China are you living? ShenZhen? You should be able to buy things with very cheap price due to there is no control on picking up things from the sea in China, and most of the corals you see in fish store in Southern China are from a place called BeiHai (North Sea).

[dingo_53]

Hi coralaholic.

I'm living in Shenzhen. The tank is in my apartment on the 19th floor.
Ha, glad I don't live on the 18th. I have visions of it disappearing.

Yes you're right it is cheap. I don't think the coral or fish are the problem and they are very cheap. The main problem is good advice and good quality equipment. The Chinese equipment is mostly bad news. A lot of coral and fish are now coming from Hainan island and there is some amazing stuff around. You can order just about anything.

I'm hoping if I use this forum for advice and import my own equipment I can get something really special happening.

[dingo_53]

I have now about 150 lbs of live rock coming tomorrow.

It is supposedly just out of a tank but there is no way to know if that's true or not in China.

Can anyone tell me if I should wash it at all before I arrange in the tank. Anything else I should do?

Thanks

[WeeNe858]

there is no need to wash the rocks if your going to run it in your tank as a cycle, there will be dead/decaying stuff on the rock but that will induce the bacteria to grow. you can arrange it in the tank how you will and let it cycle for about 2-3 weeks if not more.

[dingo_53]

Great help. Thanks a million.
I'm planning on leaving it for 2 months as I have a trip away.
I figure it muist be a case of the longer the better.

Thanks again

[dingo_53]

Well I finally got my live rock in the tank today and what a success. I was really on a high when all was finished.

There are some great things about living in China.

I went to collect it all today and hand picked 230 lbs of rock, some weighing up to 40 lbs a piece. I hired a small van and got the whole lot home to my 19th floor apartment for about USD 130.00

The tank is fairly deep at 32 inches so I could just reach the bottom.
Anyway it looks fantastic to me and I'll post a photo tomorrow.

I have to admit that setting up a reef is much more interesting than tropical. I think I'm hooked.

[Reefscape]

all starting to sound exciting now..cant wait to see a photo of it with the rock inside...

Niko

[Star_Rider]

I got a lot of good info here ..I recently started a reef tank

not the deal your getting for LR but I got what looks to be good stuff for a good price($4/pound)

it is the most interesting tank I have..and I have 8 other tanks. I recently decided to set up a qt and a smaller 20 gal nano..
what i find most intersting ..is watching the tank as it matures and more stuff starts living on the LR.

[Yuri De Lima]

I'm an Australian living in Southern China.

An Australian in China!!! That has got to be the funniest thing I ever heard! hahahahaha.

How ya doin' mate!??

By the way, great tank!

[Coralaholic]

I have now about 150 lbs of live rock coming tomorrow.

It is supposedly just out of a tank but there is no way to know if that's true or not in China.

Can anyone tell me if I should wash it at all before I arrange in the tank. Anything else I should do?

Thanks

Personally, I will wash all new LRs using salt water in order to remove the unbeneficial things like crab, spongy, etc. In China, most people don't have the concept of curred or uncurred LRs, and you never know the way how people in China do their business, I highly recommend you to wash your LRs.

I am actually from Hong Kong, for those who don't know, Hong Kong is just next to ShenZhen, the corals in HK are roughly 5 to 10 times more expensive then in SZ, but HK have all sorts of equipments you need. If you have time, come visit HK, all HK LFS are concentrated in 2 places, MongKok and Quarry Bay.

[Coralaholic]

Hi coralaholic.

I'm living in Shenzhen. The tank is in my apartment on the 19th floor.
Ha, glad I don't live on the 18th. I have visions of it disappearing.

Yes you're right it is cheap. I don't think the coral or fish are the problem and they are very cheap. The main problem is good advice and good quality equipment. The Chinese equipment is mostly bad news. A lot of coral and fish are now coming from Hainan island and there is some amazing stuff around. You can order just about anything.

I'm hoping if I use this forum for advice and import my own equipment I can get something really special happening.

I will be arround in SZ next few weeks for work, and would like to visit the fish stores there, any good fish store you recommend?

[dingo_53]

How you going Yuri.

Yeah pretty funny but I think I'm becoming more Chinese that Australian now. I have the biggest smile on my face when I cross the border back to China from H.K.

Hi Coralaholic. Yes, I've been to the fish street in Mongkok but never Quarry Bay. The big problem in H.K and China is that everyone copies the guy next door. It gets very tiring.

I know a few fish "areas" in Shenzhen but nothing really great. I have heard that there is a marine fish factory in Shenzhen that is supposed to be huge and I'll get my fiancee to do some more hunting before you come.

I'm here next week, then off to Dalian in North China, back a few days and then off to Thailand, but if your around when I am, I'd be happy to give you my cell number and my fiancee can explain where they are or we could show you if your on your own.

Do you speak putonghua or Cantonese? I guess you must. My cell is 13480689711

Somehow I have to put that blue plastic back drop around the back of the tank and I have about a 3 inch space between the tank and the wall. If it works its gonna be a miracle. Soon as that’s done I’ll post a new picture. I’d be very interested if you guys think it can be improved. Seems to me there is more of an art to stacking live rock than most people think.

[dingo_53]

By the way coralaholic. Too late, The rock has already been in there for 24 hours. I suspect your right but I can wait a few months if necessary. I noticed the nitrate is up to over 1.0 already and my scale only goes to one.

[BABERBEK]

The live rock is fine like that , is it your nitrate that is 1 .0 - what about your nitrite?Sorry if I missed something but how much flow do you have in your tank?

[dingo_53]

Sorry, my mistake.

Nitrit 1+ (my scale only goes to 1 and I would guess about 1.2
Nitrat 60
Phosphat 2

There is not much flow right now. I only have two large cannister filters with live rock and a couple of small air pumps. I will be adding a lot more but so far can only find Chinese pumps which I don't want to use.

I have two Remora Pro skimmers coming next wednesday.

Is there anything I should do like a water change? It all looks so good I don't wanna make a mess of it.

Thanks

[Reefscape]

Nope, just leave the system running and keep doing your water tests...all will be fine...

Niko

[dingo_53]

Thanks o much atnixon.

Your always such a great help when I need it

I have a new halide coming tomorrow which will give me 3 at 150w plus a number of tubes. Should I be using all these lights during this period?

[Reefscape]

yeah....as an indecation of lighting times...when i was running my reef, i had tubes on from 12midday till 9pm....halides on from 2pm till 8pm...and night light on from 9pm till 6am....

Should look superb when the rest of the lighting goes in mate..

Niko

[Mgamer20o0]

cool.

[dingo_53]

http://www.z-tags.com/transfer/fish/2007-JUN-10 tank.jpg

Finally got a picture of the live rock in there. There is 227 lbs all together mostly in large pieces.

I added the new halide today which is 2 x 150W with some night lights together. The long unit on the front is just some florescents that make it all look better. No idea really what they are because its all written in Chinese.

There is another small halide on the left down low which I'm raising up tonight. I got some customs glass work done which will be ready soon so I can place the stands. 4 pieces off customs glass rails 1 cm thich for $8. China has its advantages.

I moved all the power boards and air pumps up top. The pumps are working much better now and giving me more water movement.

The two new remora pro skimmers are due to arrive in 2 days, so that will be the next step.

Then I'm going to plumb in 4 large pumps and a wavemaker to get some real water movement happening.

It looks spectacular and much better than in the photo.

It's all getting very exciting. Thanks a million to all those that have helped and encouraged. Really appreciated.

[Reefscape]

tank is looking superb mate..is that some bubble curtains at the back centre of the tank? If it is, i would suggest you remove it as mostly, marine do not like to be having bubbles in the tank....

Niko

[dingo_53]

Hi Niko,

Yes there is a bubble curtain right across the back. I put it there as a temporary measure as there is not much water movement until I put some power heads in late next week. The only movement right now is from the outlets of the two cannister filters.

Thanks for noticing and I'll take em out if you think it would be better.

[dingo_53]

Hope I can ask you guys another question.

I originally thought about putting a wavemaker in but I'm having second thoughts. I'm often away for days at a time and I want to have the whole tank on timers and keep it simple.

I'm now thinking of just plumbing in two seperate pumps each to an outlet on either end of the tank with a swivel outlet that moves. I don;t know much about what I would need. What would you suggest for a pump for either end?

[Reefscape]

One thing that needs to kept in mind here is the volume of water to get circulated..220 gal....

Personally, i would suggest something along the lines of 2 Seio M2600's..these offer about 2600 GPH water turn over...

The other alternative is the Koralia 4 powerheads ( 1200 gph ), but you would be needing 4 of these to give good water flow...

The above is based on having a water circulation of just over 20 times per hour.. ( 220 gal tank x 20 = 4400 GPH water turnover )...

If this is not going to be a reef, then you can effectivly half the above figures...

Niko

[dingo_53]

another pic with side view

http://www.z-tags.com/transfer/fish/2007-JUN-11_tank.JPG

[dingo_53]

Niko, your an amazing help. Dunno what I'd do without you.
Those Koralia 4 powerheads look like just what i'm looking for and 4 would be fine.

I'm going to try to find some in Hong Kong on Friday.

If I can't find them can you suggest an on-line shop in the U.K because I need 230V and all the U.S stuff is 110V.

Also, I have heard that if a powerhead breaks it can leak oil into the water. Is this a concern?

If you ever plan a trip to China, let me know, love to be able to give some help back.

Thanks again for everything.

[dingo_53]

Hi Niko,
I shot of an email to the company in Italy that makes them and I think they'll have someone in H.K. I found other answers on this forum. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Hopefully I'll have four in by the end of the week.

[dorkfish]

Yes, an oil lubricated powerhead will leak oil if broken... Rios are a brand that are oil lubricated and have a poor track record as far as reliability goes (from what I've read they almost certainly WILL break). Oil in your tank is a bad thing. The koralia's aren't oil lubricated, so with these it isn't a concern.

[dingo_53]

Thanks for your help dorkfish.

I'm hoping to pick up 4 koralia's this week and they certainly seem like my best option. Would they normally be placed one in each corner, or is it just trial and error?

[dingo_53]

Hate to be a pain.

My two remora pro skimmers just arrived.
I ordered them without pumps because I need 230V and they only offer 110V.

They suggest Rio 1400 or Mag Drive 3

I don't want to use a Rio pump because I'm worried about oil leakage.
I don't know about Mag Drive 3

Is there a pump I can use that won't have this problem?

[dingo_53]

Today I installed the 2 Remora Pro skimmers using Hydor L40 pumps running at the lowest seeing of 1400 lph. They are working well and seen like great skimmers.

I also added 3 Hydor Koralia 4's and 2 Koralia 3's for water circulation.

The tank is 220G with 230 kilos of live rock.

My question is that I also have 2 big cannisters filled with live rock. Do you think the above is enough filtration for a reef tank and that I can now remove the cannisters?

[Reefscape]

simple answer is yes, you can drop off the two cannister filters now as your live rock will provide all the mechanical filtration that is required.

another alternative is to convert one into a refugium...a little DIY work and your sorted...however, a little bit down the line with that part..

Glad you got the skimmers sorted....

Looking superb so far mate, kudos....

Niko

[Grins]

Question, is the live rock on the sand or on the glass for extra stability? The rock is gorgeous by the way, love that piece on the far left.

[dingo_53]

Thanks again Niko. Don't know how I'd get all this done without you.

Grins, the rock is on the sand. It's not touching any glass but all seems to be very stable. One of those pieces, (I think the one you mean), weighed about 40 pounds. I had no idea how to arrange it but my fiancee seemed to have all the answers. I think we some how fluked it. It really looks stunning and much better than the photos. She's a photographer and is studying how to get better pics.

I have to say, even with just the rock I just keep looking at it and thinking how did we manage that first up.

P.S Those remora pro skimmers h.o.t skimmers are fantastic. They are working like a charm and take up only 4 inches on the back. Every other h.o.t skimmer I've seen is big and ugly.

[Mgamer20o0]

looks great. good luck.

[dingo_53]

Well its been a week now and things are changing. I see a lot of greenish/brownish stuff growing on the rocks. In my ignorance I have no idea if this is good or bad.
Can anyone tell me if this looks right or not?

http://www.z-tags.com/transfer/fish/2007-JUN-17_tank.jpg

Also I have two skimmers which seem to be working in a strange way. One seems to be blowing a lot of salt from the overflow outlet and is collecting a lot of dirty water but almost no bubbles.

The other is on the other end of the tank and blows almost no salt, has quite a few bubbles but collects almost no dirt water.

They are the same brand, Remora Pro and yet seem to be working completely differently. Any idea whats happening there?

Thanks everyone for their help.

[dorkfish]

Do you have them both adjusted the same?

And does this "salt" seem to float up to the surface? If so, that's microbubbles.

[dingo_53]

Thanks for your reply.

Some seems to float to the surface and some goes down and is blown across the tank by the Koralia's. The other one has almost no salt visible anywhere around it.

The only adjustment seems to be the high of he collection basket which is the same.

[Reefscape]

dingo_53

Well its been a week now and things are changing. I see a lot of greenish/brownish stuff growing on the rocks. In my ignorance I have no idea if this is good or bad.
Can anyone tell me if this looks right or not?

Greenish brown that you are experiencing is simply a diatom algae bloom..all new saltwater system suffer it, just stick with it, this too shall pass....

Looks absolutly fine to me...

[dingo_53]

Thanks for that. I'll stop panicking. Haha, a lot to learn with this.

[Emg]

Dingo, that's some fantastic LR you have in there ! Keep up the good work !

[dingo_53]

Well it's been nearly a month now and my tank is disappearing under a layer pr green/brown algae bloom. Seems I'm looking at being the most successfull algae keeper on this forum.

Testing from a month ago until now is as follows...
NO2 Nitrat a liitle less from 60 to a high of 70 and now 50.
N03 Nitrat has dropped a lot from 1.3 to a high of 1.5 and now 0.1
PP$ Phosphat from 2 and continuing up to 8 now.

Is thsi normal or do I need to do something.

I haven't used the Halide for the past 3 weeks and only have the night lights on which are very low.

The algae is all over the rocks and even in the sand. I keep taking it off the glass. I can't see much else happening other than a few chalky white spots.

[Reefscape]

any chance of a photo of the algae and how its looking?

[dingo_53]

This is how it looks now....yuk

http://www.z-tags.com/transfer/fish/2007-JUL-01_tank.jpg

[Reefscape]

All you have there is simply diatom algae. It happens to all new tanks. Just something we have to live with and work through. It shall pass in time..Just keep good flow in the system..

Niko

[dingo_53]

Thanks Niko.

Haha, thought I had some special algae growing talent.

[dingo_53]

After returning from a few weeks holidays my tank seems a little better. The algae is not as bad and the water looks clearer. It now looks like it might one day have a fish in there. Can anyone advise on the readings below.

NO2 has dropped from 0.1 to 0.07 which from what I know is okay.

NO3 has dropped from 50 to 40 which from what I know is okay, maybe a bit high.

PP4 has dropped from 8 to 4 which I guess is too high. There is visually less algae but it's still noticable if I put the lights on.

I guess that the PP4 reading is what's stopping me from trying out a fish or two. I have the night light on a few hours at the moment and no halide at all. Is there anything else I can do speed up the reduction in PP4?

One more thing. I don;t have a chiller yet and I'm going to need one. The water temperature is very high at the moment, around 31C. I just haven;t got around to putting in the chiller yet. Would dropping the water temp help with the algae?

Thanks for all your help.

[Subliminal]

You ain't got nothing on my algae growing skills, hoss!

http://lh6.google.com/damontmorris/RnhCYXiE4oI/AAAAAAAABag/0z4gZrU8nZg/s800/IMG_2956.jpg

HA!

Seriously, though...looks like it's working well.

Do you use filtration for your water? A RO/DI unit or somesuch?

[dingo_53]

Wow, I thought I was the king of algae on this forum.
I'm forced to concede your skill is higher.

I use two remora pro skimmers only but have a lot of rock and sand in there.
It does seem to be working slowly. Is there some kind of crazy algae eating monster I can put in there?

[Subliminal]

As to the filtration, I meant on your water source. Like a reverse osmosis filtration system.

As to your algae, it's nothing really. Just weather the storm.

Once your ammonia and nitrite totally go away, you can start getting some snails and such. They'll eat some of that algae for you.

Generally they say a clean up crew should consist of these lil critters, maybe 1 per 2 gallons or so. In your case, starting out with 20 or 30 hermits and snails would probably make your tank a lot more fun for you, and they'll start on that algae of yours.

:)

[dingo_53]

Thanks Daman,
No I don't use anything on the water source. Should I?

Yes even or snail would make me feel better after more than 2 months.

[Subliminal]

Yeah, you really should use filtered water.

Your best bet is this:

Buy some sort of reef test kit. You want:

the cycle your tank goes thru is like this:

You get ammonia first
then nitrite
then nitrate

you need test kits for all 3

ugly algae eats mainly nitrates and phosphates

you need a test kit for phosphates

silicates (silica?) can cause diatom blooms, and it's not a bad thing to test for either.

Later on, when you get serious (grin) you're going to need a calcium, alkalinity and magnessium test kit.

Basically, you might as well try and get all those. You have a REAL tank, so you might as well do it right, ya know?

Anyway, you'll want to test the water going into your tank for nitrates and phosphates....those can cause you some serious issues, and really getting rid of phosphates is a constant battle for any reefer....even if it's a battle fought by equipment instead of hard work...but usually, at one point or another, it'll be both.

Anyway, you should really invest in a RO/DI unit. Don't know what you have access to over there, but it will look a little like this:

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20060105171610/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_524714_19577D.jpg

Anyway, i'm sure you'll have questions, and don't hesitate to ask. I see you have the potential for a seriously beautiful setup, and i'd hate to see you fail because you didn't have the necessary equipment early on.

I started with well water (see picture of hair algae above) and have since switched to ro/di and it's really going away. I buy mine at a pet store, because i only need to do 5 gallon water changes, where you're going to want to do ~20-25 gallons.


Your water could have minute levels of copper in it, which just by using it is going to soak into things and ensure you have problems in the past.

Basically, you always have to remember, you're keeping a big tank of water. You keep that water right, and everything else takes care of itself...except for maybe light.

Anyway, sorry for the long windedness...hope you glean something useful from all that.

:)

[dingo_53]

Thanks so much for your detailed reply.

I'm starting to feel like a chemist already but I can see the value in testing to see exactly whats going on.

I'll check what's available in China because I guess the water quality here is not good. I haven't been doing water changes yet as there isn't anything in there.

Do you think I should be changing water?
Also, do you think using a chiller to drop the water temperature would help?
I somehow just guess that cooler water would be better for algae control.
At the moment it's 31C and I'm going to need a chiller anyway.

Thanks again for your great help.

David

[Subliminal]

Yeah, sad to say, that is entirely too hot. You want your tank to stay right around 26C or you're going to have a helluva time with corals and the like....and algae seems to love the higher temps.

In my house I just have an air conditioner in the room with the tank, and i keep the room around 22C and that keeps my tank round 26C.


So...if you knew then what you knew now...would you still have started? It's a great hobby, but so much to learn!

[dingo_53]

Hi Damon,

Yeah, I guessed as much. I'm going to put the chiller in tomorrow. I;d love to have the aircon at 22C too, but my Chinese wife catches a cold in 24 hours with the aircon set to even 25C. Looks like I'll have to do it teh hard way and have cool fish while I swelter.

Would I have started. Absolutely. I had two large rays before and they were very little work. My friend has a crocodile and that's easy too. This has been a real learning experience but I'm really enjoying it a lot. I think I have a LOT to learn but it's all a good challenge.

I think I'll have a party when the first fish arrives.

Thanks again for all your help. It's very much appreciated.