Persecuted for appearance... discussion

[electromen]

Hey everyone. I was digging around in some of my old blogs and found this one. Its something I've been meaning to do but haven't gotten around to it quite yet. Opinions and comments are welcome.


I started this new job about 2 weeks ago. Saw it in the Star Tribune, called it up, the dude on the other end seemed pretty cool, we got along, he hired me that day. It was chilly for the first couple of days I worked, then we had a hot one. (By the way this was a carpentery job). So naturally when its hot out, you tend to wear less clothing, so I was just in a t-shirt and jeans. The bossman shows up and I meet him for the first time. He seems really cool, he seemed to really understand what it took to make workers happy and create a good work environment. I mean, one of the days we got rained out halfway into the shift and he decided to take the entire crew out for bowling, wings, and drinks. Awesome, I think I just landed the job of a lifetime.

The next day I get a call from him. It was my boss.. " we decided that due to your tattooes and piercings we're going to have to let you go. I feel terrible about this so I'll give you 4 more weeks of work and all the time you need for interviews and such.... "

Needless to say I'm pretty upset about this. I imagined myself with this company for a very long time, it just seemed too good to be true.

Now what about your opinions?

I understand under certain circumstances people find tattooes and piercings inappropriate, however, to judge someone's character as a whole based off of that is just absurd to me. I'm not going to sue, thats just stupid. I just think its dumb for a company to fire a loyal employee just to entertain what they think other people will think of them.

Let me know what you think. I'm considering writing an essay about it and turning it in to local news writings, citypages, etc.

My love for body art shouldn't determine a basis for others to judge my character by. Its discrimination and should not be tolerated. I'm not looking for vengeance personally, but together I think we can raise awareness to make a difference and hopefully one day, end this kind and other kinds of discrimination.

Thanks.

[Coler]

As a matter of practicality it would be nice if people did not have that kind of prejudice. As a general matter of law, it depends on the industry, your role in the company, the nature of your tatoos and what state you live in (I'm presuming US)...any more details ?

edit...its in your avatar I see that now lol

[electromen]

As a matter of practicality it would be nice if people did not have that kind of prejudice. As a general matter of law, it depends on the industry, your role in the company, the nature of your tatoos and what state you live in (I'm presuming US)...any more details ?

edit...its in your avatar I see that now lol
In defense of the company, they do work in ritzy neighnorhoods. However, my exposed tattoos aren't offensive.

[Nolapete]

Well, I can see his point about working in the ritzy neighborhoods. Those people are inclined to judge people and not give business based on that. It does sound like a viable discrimination suit though.

[Nolapete]

By the way, you'll never end discrimination. There's always going to be someone who thinks he/she is better than the person he/she finds reason to discriminate against.

[electromen]

By the way, you'll never end discrimination. There's always going to be someone who thinks he/she is better than the person he/she finds reason to discriminate against.
Right. Its just the nature of being human. There will always be ignorance. However, that doesn't mean that nothing should be done in events of prejudice.

[Coler]

...let me check something out here and I'll get back to ya :)

[Reefscape]

i get descriminated against quite a lot for my tattoo's....but, to be honest, its something i have learned to to live with...i am who i am, people have to accept me for who i am....If they cant, then that is their issue to deal with...

Yes, i had issues where i dont get let into pubs or night clubs due to my arms being covered in tattoo's and are not covered all the way to the cuff.....

I can understand from a certain point of view why they did it, and being fair on the company, they could easily of just dumped you on the spot...But, they chose to be fair and keep you on for 4 weeks while you sorted other employment out...Over here in the UK, you would of been dumped on the spot, i dont doubt that....but hey, each country deals with issues in different ways....

Hope it all works out...

Niko

[Que]

If you were a good worker, and he wanted to keep you on, I feel he should have offered you the option of working with a shirt on all the time and removing or covering your piercings.

Q

More on this later.

[captaincaveman9]

personally if it were a professional area, where shirt and tie are required or even business casual (golf shirts and slacks) then I could understand why they would have a problem, but in a blue collar job? unless a tatoo were offensive then no harm done. thats more of a job where quality matters more than appearance anyway.

[bkw1982]

Was there no way for you to cover the tattos? ive seen armbands on wrist and different methods to cover them. It's a risk you take when you get a tat, to many people treat it like a fad, lower back tats :silly: . I say if you can cover it up try and get the job back if it's important.

[Dangerdoll]

how ironic is it that I just got another tattoo today?

My opinion is why not ask that you keep your tattoo's covered while at a job site. Yes, Ques says if you were a good worker, they would have kept you on but in your defense, this is a new job so your ethics and reliablility, etc. can't really fairly be determined because you are the new guy. Sorry this happened to you, bud and good luck with getting something else.

[mee-mee]

Electromen....I dont know why we discriminate here for someone having tattoos and piercings...like you said it is a form of art or defines us...look at the kids who work at DOWN IN THE VALLEY....and alot of people assume that just because a person has alot of tattoos or piercing s/he is a thug...I have been around many people who have all that stuff and are the nicest people I have ever met....and look at the kids who wear goth...individualism....and there will never be an end to people judging other people.....that is what this society is all about, especially Eagan, Eden Prairie, Apple Valley...and all the rizty places that we have in Mn...I always see people with tats at my job and I always comment on how cool they look...We are who we are....you just keep being you and don't let anyone tell you who to be or how to act...I'm sure you are just great...

PS...maybe it is a good thing that you got out the STRIB is on its way to being sold anyway...and they are going to be cutting a bunch a people anyway....:)

[Que]

Another part of what I wanted to say was that it's unfortunate that society generally likes to group people together base on what they look like and past experiences. So if I ran into some big scary bikers who acted wild and intimidating... and they happened to have tattoos and piercings well I'd be inclined to look on others that have the same appearance the same way even if they don't ride.
I know through experience that many bikers who have tattoos and piercings are nice people but that doesn't change the way I feel when I first see someone who looks that way. I have to fight my biases every day because I know there are people out there who deserve my giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I grew up with some prejudices handed down to me and it takes every day of my life to fight them. I work in a company that is basically a cross section of society and working there for the last 20 years has helped me to get a grip on my biases.

Q

[mee-mee]

I was raised not to be prejudiced or biased....and I do accept people for who they are....the only time I judge is when that person judges me...What makes them better than me....just cuz they have more money...who cares....just cuz they drive nice cars...I dont give a rats #@$#...and if you have a tattoo or piercings I would say KUDOS to you for expressing you individualism....


Look at my mom,,,,she is from IOWA...and I love her anyway....and I love Iowa....I am proud to be my mother's daughter...:)

and to clarify my post #13 I was referring to people in MN (not this forum), I work with the public everyday and I hear people making comments of others that walk in the door at the restaurant I work at...and we get all walks of life in there....I treat people the way I would want to be treated....

[aoscar]

i am assuming you are a framing carpenter as finish carpenter work inside., I've been in framing , roofing, siding, etc., etc. for 8 years and that is supposed to be one of the benefits of very early stage construction and the extreemly hard work we do is that you can be you whoever you are it's all about productivity and quality, sorry this happened , I have never heard of such a thing.

[electromen]

I could have covered them, it was just hot. I've been working construction for years and no one has ever had a problem with them (unless I'm sent to a small town, for some reason there's more prejudice there) so I didn't see any harm in taking the outer layer off. Besides, I was on a 3rd story roof......

Anyways, I've read a lot of good points/advice. Prejudice is just one of those things. I just can't seem to fathom how people can be sooo blind. In my hometown, racism is everywhere. Whether it be the color of your skin, sexual preference, religion.. I can't believe its that hard to see through boundaries like that.

This happened about 10 months ago, I'm over it. I'm just trying to get an understanding for this kind of behavior.

[mee-mee]

That is the problem, the human race will never understand why there are prejudices in this world....that is why I would rather live on an island with my hubby and not have to worry about humans at all....or just turn into a fish myself and swim in the deep ocean....man I wish I was born an animal...I think I will move to Antarctica with the penguins and hope to be in the next movie March of the Penguin part 2 teehee

It makes us who we are today...learning and listening to what is going on around us...and some people actually fall into the stereotypical brackets of what this world is becoming....and I just stay at home and stay away from the general population of people...because I have to see it everyday at my job....

what we see and hear is etched in our minds forever, even as children, they are taught how to treat others, from what they see....:wall:

but it can only make us stronger for who we are today, by not going along with what others say and do...I sure don't...or I at least try not to...there is always a brighter tomorrow...we hope...:)

[PPMN]

I wonder if someone complained, like a client or someone "above" you in the company. It doesn't make sense that he was fine with it and then out of the blue he tells you this.

I just think it's stupid that people are such idiots about things like this. Hey, all I care about is whether or not a person stinks...try working with a stench of a armpit moisture blowing your way every time the wind blows. Other than that who cares???!!!

If what concerned him was uppity clientele being offended then he could have put you on another job site, or better yet he could of stood up for you and reassured them of your honesty and workmanship.

I can't imagine what you must go through all the time. You should see the way people look at me when I'm covered in paint and walk into a Byerly's in Minnetonka, or Wayzata and the like. Disgust, noses in the air, like I have no right to be there. I'm NOT exaggerating, people treat me so differently when I look like that...and that's just paint!!! I can't imagine having to deal with the stereotypes that come with tats and piercings. Like mee-mee said, I was also raised not to be prejudice toward others but the sad truth is most parents either don't try to educate thier children, or they are giving a bad example themselves.

Anyway, I'm sorry this had to happen to you. (hey, at least you didn't insist on being naked on the job, ay "nudist"?!:naughty:)

[electromen]

(hey, at least you didn't insist on being naked on the job, ay "nudist"?!:naughty:)
I should really change that :shakehead:, I'm just going to keep getting crap about it aren't I? haha.

The stinger of it all is that I was born in a racist area. I was raised to treat people that weren't like me different. Even if my parents didn't tell me to treat people like that, they "led by example"... but am I not still a freethinking person? At an early age I met someone of a different race, we became friends and hung out a lot. When my parents found out they wouldn't allow me to hang out with him, not only because of his race but because of his poverty. He was a good person, my parents couldn't look past something so simple as the color of his skin...

Sorry getting a little fired up.. lol. My point is, I don't know what happens when we die, but I'm sure there is a day where you'll have to be accountable to someone or something for your actions.. and an excuse like "she told me its that way" won't fly. I think people should be more open about stuff. Step outside the box once in awhile you know?

I once heard a quote that I liked.. "I am not an American living in America, I'm a human living in the world; you want peace? Start thinking that way."
While I realize peace is impossible to achieve, I still think its a good way to view life. There shouldn't be boundaries of wealth, race, gender, metal-headness.. its all stupid to me.

[Que]

I once heard a quote that I liked.. "I am not an American living in America, I'm a human living in the world; you want peace? Start thinking that way."


This and the golden rule "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" should be enough. The golden rule predates nearly all texts including the book many follow.

Unfortunately if you get burned by this enough you start to wonder why you should keep trying. The thing is everyone needs to keep trying because if we don't then the rule fades away and people get treated less and less the way they'd like to be treated.

I heard a story once where a guy broke down by the side of the road. A good Samaritan stopped to help him and was able to get him on his way. The guy who broke down wanted to pay the good Samaritan but the man refused. Instead the good Samaritan told him " I don't want you to pay me but instead can you do something for me?" The man said "sure". The good Samaritan said "if you see someone else broken down by the side of the road then help him. Do this 10 times and we'll be even."

How nice would it be if people did this kind of thing in other life situations. It's kinda like the pay it forward plant exchange here.

Q

[lazyNode]

I think it's society following acceptable rules, behaviours and traditional values.

As a society in general, we are becoming more open minded and acceptable to issues out of the norm, it's just happening at a really slow rate.

It used to be unacceptable to wear a bikini, or not wear a top-hat, or for a lady to wear pants or have short hair.

Who knows, maybe in 50 years time it will be socially acceptable to have tattoos showing. It would probably be alot faster if some celebrity like Paris tattoos herself and she somehow starts a trend. haha.

[mee-mee]

I should really change that :shakehead:, I'm just going to keep getting crap about it aren't I? haha.

The stinger of it all is that I was born in a racist area. I was raised to treat people that weren't like me different. Even if my parents didn't tell me to treat people like that, they "led by example"... but am I not still a freethinking person? At an early age I met someone of a different race, we became friends and hung out a lot. When my parents found out they wouldn't allow me to hang out with him, not only because of his race but because of his poverty. He was a good person, my parents couldn't look past something so simple as the color of his skin...

Sorry getting a little fired up.. lol. My point is, I don't know what happens when we die, but I'm sure there is a day where you'll have to be accountable to someone or something for your actions.. and an excuse like "she told me its that way" won't fly. I think people should be more open about stuff. Step outside the box once in awhile you know?

I once heard a quote that I liked.. "I am not an American living in America, I'm a human living in the world; you want peace? Start thinking that way."
While I realize peace is impossible to achieve, I still think its a good way to view life. There shouldn't be boundaries of wealth, race, gender, metal-headness.. its all stupid to me.

NNNOOOOO...nothing wrong with being an aspiring nudist....everyone should do it...and as PPMN said what she does...so do I...everyday I get home I just want to strip down to the bare essentials....nothing wrong at all with being comfortable in your own skin...literally I mean...:drool:

[electromen]

NNNOOOOO...nothing wrong with being an aspiring nudist....everyone should do it...and as PPMN said what she does...so do I...everyday I get home I just want to strip down to the bare essentials....nothing wrong at all with being comfortable in your own skin...literally I mean...:drool:
haha. Its always the first thing I do, strip down and chill.

Its relieving to come here and see there's still decent people around. The people of the music scene around here are also really really cool and accepting... unless you get into the death metal scene.. haha. Then they'll literally kick your buttocks if you like anything less heavy then death metal.

[legendaryfrog]

I think it's society following acceptable rules, behaviours and traditional values.

As a society in general, we are becoming more open minded and acceptable to issues out of the norm, it's just happening at a really slow rate.

It used to be unacceptable to wear a bikini, or not wear a top-hat, or for a lady to wear pants or have short hair.

Who knows, maybe in 50 years time it will be socially acceptable to have tattoos showing. It would probably be alot faster if some celebrity like Paris tattoos herself and she somehow starts a trend. haha.

In many places, tattoos showing is socially acceptable, and occasionally socially encouraged.

As for showing tattoos on the job, again it depends where you work. At the job you mentioned, I dont see why it wouldnt be accepted. I'm guessing you wree laid off because your boss doesnt want to **scare** away customers. In my office job, tattoos can never be exposed to the higher execs, but if you're in your office or in the lower floors, they can be showing.

[PPMN]

I should really change that :shakehead:, I'm just going to keep getting crap about it aren't I? haha.



yup! hahahaha

Even if you change it I will remind you of it on a regular basis. :devil:

[jac8724]

Thats totally crappy I cant believe what i just read. As a law student, you do have a case. Too bad our "justice" system boils down to who can afford the better lawyer, so you probably wouldnt win against a huge company.

You can bet the reason you were let go was because of a complaint from higher up or a client. I believe you would qualify for 3 additional months of medical insurance/benefits that the company offered. And be thankful, you wouldnt want to be working for people like this anyways.

[Plecosterone]

Being a contractor myself and working on high end renovations which are very costly I have to keep up certain appearances. I do not really care what anyone that works for me looks like but I do know that most people that are paying for this kind of work do care who works on thier house. To these people, looks makes a huge difference. They would rather pay more money to someone driving a BMW in a suit and tie than someone driving an old van and didn't shave that morning. They want someone to be as professional as they are no matter what they are doing. Right or wrong, this is how MOST people think. Anyone on my job is also representing me and I do not want to ruin my reputation even if it is through prejudices by the customer. If you worked for me and had long hair - hide it somehow, tats - ditto, shave in the morning and be as presentable as you can be at least until the customer gets to know you and your workers better and can see that they can do the job better than anyone else. Once they see this, attitudes can change. They might not like tattoos or long hair but they will not hurt your reputation as much because you are the best at what you do.

[AquariumFish]

DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE:

Why do people think that business owners shouldn't have the right to pick and choose like minded people to work for them?

It is THEIR INVESTMENT that started the business ...

IF someone doesn't like their choice - let them start their OWN BUSINESS! :headbang2:

It's a Liberal mindset that thinks the UN-invested should have the right to create laws to force the invested to accept them.... :wtf:

[THEJRC]

Unfortunately it's something people have to deal with. I run a consulting firm and am rarely ever found without a hat, I collect em.... no ballcaps just good hats. When working a prospect I tend to not wear a hat the first time if it's a cold lead, if it's a referral I go normal with my hat. I've done interviews in my hats and it's become more of my trademark.

That being said, one of my clients (and past employers before I went on my own) has a slew of ink addicts working there, it's a decent corporate atmosphere and everyone knows how to hide the possibly offending when necessary. the owners arent inked, neither are the new investors, and it's real fun to watch the first impressions fade after they realize that theres not much difference in people just because they have ink. Board meetings are always fun when almost every single member of management with the exception of the owners and the shareholders are heavily inked.

I will say this, having a large number of friends who take ink as a serious hobby it's much like anything else. Someone who has well done, high quality, and a large amount (such as full sleeves, etc) body art has put a lot of effort and thought into this. It proves that said person can show serious dedication and utilize a thinking process where the decisions are far reaching and cannot be easily undone. This makes EXCELLENT workers.

as for me, two small tatoo's one that I'm not so proud of and one that I picked up in honor of a mentor.... the second was done by the same artist that drew my company logo on a napkin while boozing and I love the logo (on the shirt in my avatar!)

[electromen]

Being a contractor myself and working on high end renovations which are very costly I have to keep up certain appearances. I do not really care what anyone that works for me looks like but I do know that most people that are paying for this kind of work do care who works on thier house. To these people, looks makes a huge difference. They would rather pay more money to someone driving a BMW in a suit and tie than someone driving an old van and didn't shave that morning. They want someone to be as professional as they are no matter what they are doing. Right or wrong, this is how MOST people think. Anyone on my job is also representing me and I do not want to ruin my reputation even if it is through prejudices by the customer. If you worked for me and had long hair - hide it somehow, tats - ditto, shave in the morning and be as presentable as you can be at least until the customer gets to know you and your workers better and can see that they can do the job better than anyone else. Once they see this, attitudes can change. They might not like tattoos or long hair but they will not hurt your reputation as much because you are the best at what you do.

Well stated. Its a shame that people are like that.

DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE:

Why do people think that business owners shouldn't have the right to pick and choose like minded people to work for them?

It is THEIR INVESTMENT that started the business ...

IF someone doesn't like their choice - let them start their OWN BUSINESS! :headbang2:

It's a Liberal mindset that thinks the UN-invested should have the right to create laws to force the invested to accept them.... :wtf:

Ouch.

I do see your point though, however, the investment should include fair treatment of employees. You can't expect employees to be treated like that. And it goes both ways, I gave up a very high paying job so I could work with this crew because I thought they were different. Both ends must sacrifice to make the employee/employer relationship last. You'll get better production and a happier work environment.

As an employer you should offer some sort of compensation for demands like that. After all, it completely affects my personal life. I'm not going to change my lifestyle just because people think its unsuitable. Its a terrible thing that when I go apply for jobs, I have to ask there policy on tattoos, piercings, hair?!!. I mean hair! Seriously, you must be joking. They might as well ask if I have freckles on my butt because well, I do, and that might not fly with this company. I can't stand to see employers treat their employees like their just a number, just as replaceable as the next. Its stupid, its like we're not even humans. Well not me, I won't tolerate that.

I'm not justifying taking advantage of an employer, so don't get me wrong. Fair treatment isn't a whole lot to ask, it should be expected. The quality of my work doesn't depend on the fact that I have ink on my arms. Thats just absurd.

It's a Liberal mindset that thinks the UN-invested should have the right to create laws to force the invested to accept them.... :wtf:
Thats too broad of a statement. One COULD take it as an excuse to allow racism even. Based on this statement, if I were an employer and never wanted to hire Somalians, for example, it would be ok because they didn't invest.

In summary, I do feel that, to a certain extent, an employer has the right to pick and choose there employees. I do not feel, however, that they should choose based off of something so minute as a tattoo. Just because I have tattoos doesn't mean I can't have a professional appearance.

In all respect,
Electro

[AquariumFish]

I do see your point though, however, the investment should include fair treatment of employees.


Sure - but what about the FAIR TREATMENT of a restaurant owner who enjoys cigarette's and wants to cater to the smoking customer?

What happened to his right? WHY was he FORCED to cater to those who could care less about his rights?

I'm not going to change my lifestyle just because people think its unsuitable.


BUT ... the business owner is legally obligated to accept those into his business that he would NEVER consider inviting into his own home

but that is okay for the rich ?
....so long as those who have a LOWER standards get what they want from what the rich can offer - huh?

Don't get me wrong ... I say if I hire someone - it should be someone I CAN respect ...




... just to set the record straight ...I too have tattoo's and a pierced nipple!Like I said ... DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE :devil: !

[electromen]

Sure - but what about the FAIR TREATMENT of a restaurant owner who enjoys cigarette's and wants to cater to the smoking customer?

What happened to his right? WHY was he FORCED to cater to those who could care less about his rights?

Thats besides the point. Its completely different from an employee/employer relationship. Smoking poses a health risk to innocent bystanders when its allowed anywhere, something the govt has to get involved with. However, I do agree that there should still be designated smoking areas. Smoking doesn't need to be banned from everything.


BUT ... the business owner is legally obligated to accept those into his business that he would NEVER consider inviting into his own home

but that is okay for the rich ?
....so long as those who have a LOWER standards get what they want from what the rich can offer - huh?

Don't get me wrong ... I say if I hire someone - it should be someone I CAN respect ...




... just to set the record straight ...I too have tattoo's and a pierced nipple!Like I said ... DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE :devil: !


That doesn't mean that a business owner is legally obligated to accept those into his business that he would never consider inviting into his own home. He shouldn't just throw anyone out of consideration based off of such things (tattoos, race, gender... ) You can't judge someone so soon. I think anyone deserves a fair shot at anything. There shouldn't be boundaries such as these.

I realize what you are saying, but if I was fired because of my tattoos for fear of the company losing clientele. And I was, that still doesn't make it right. If the business owner has so much at stake, then why wouldn't he have more faith in the people he hired? Or hire people he could have faith in (enough to fight fore)? I find it absurd that a crackhead without tattoos would be chose over someone like me. Its just the stupidity of people not giving people like me a chance. I pride myself on being an honest hard working person. You simply cannot judge someones character the way they did mine. If they got to know me, they'd love me... and I'm sure you would to. :naughty:

[AquariumFish]

Thats besides the point. Its completely different from an employee/employer relationship. Smoking poses a health risk to innocent bystanders when its allowed anywhere, something the govt has to get involved with. However, I do agree that there should still be designated smoking areas. Smoking doesn't need to be banned from everything.

If innocent bystanders were so innocent why were they there?
They know the risk ....

There are non smoking restaurants which I have chosen not to patronize which is fine with me.

being a smoker; it is my choice on which business I decide to patronize.

What is the difference between the smokers choice and the non smokers choice?

Why is it just one way?

Who has the RIGHT to make my body into their version of what is right?

If it can be done to the smokers why can't it be
done to the one who risks Hep "C" when they get tatted?

Hey; Hepatitis "C" is common among tatted people.

That doesn't mean that a business owner is legally obligated to accept those into his business that he would never consider inviting into his own home. He shouldn't just throw anyone out of consideration based off of such things (tattoos, race, gender... ) You can't judge someone so soon. (I disagree - it sounds like you want the Turkey's flocking with the Eagles - that is unrealistic - everyone is not the same)I think anyone deserves a fair shot at anything. There shouldn't be boundaries such as these.
What you call boundaries aren't boundaries - they are GOAL'S, objectives, steps up the ladder.
I realize what you are saying, but if I was fired because of my tattoos for fear of the company losing clientele. And I was, that still doesn't make it right. If the business owner has so much at stake, then why wouldn't he have more faith in the people he hired? Or hire people he could have faith in (enough to fight fore)? I find it absurd that a crackhead without tattoos would be chose over someone like me. Its just the stupidity of people not giving people like me a chance. I pride myself on being an honest hard working person. You simply cannot judge someones character the way they did mine. If they got to know me, they'd love me... and I'm sure you would to. :naughty:

Actually; I am not a people person - people at a distance is fine but the inner sanctuary of my life is my wife and son only!

[rbishop]

Okay folks...lets get a calmer attitude going. State your position and leave it at that.

Thanks for your support.

[J double R]

If innocent bystanders were so innocent why were they there?
They know the risk ....

There are non smoking restaurants which I have chosen not to patronize which is fine with me.

being a smoker; it is my choice on which business I decide to patronize.

What is the difference between the smokers choice and the non smokers choice?



i am a smoker, and this is me 2 cents. the difference between a smokers choice and a non smokers choice is that smokers choose to risk their lives regardless. it stinks, it's a carcinogen. i have accepted that. its as simple as why should a non-smoker have to deal with the stench and the side effects of secondhand smoke because we may want to smoke inside? we choose to smoke.. you cannot say that anyone was forced to start smoking. i personally have no problem stepping outside to have a burn.. it's my problem, and i understand that even though i have the choice to smoke and risk my life, people who don't choose to shouldnt have to risk their lives to eat/drink/socialize where i feel like smoking.



If it can be done to the smokers why can't it be
done to the one who risks Hep "C" when they get tatted?


because my secondhand smoke will potentially give him cancer.. his tats won't give me Hep because we're eating at adjacent booths.

[AquariumFish]

i am a smoker, and this is me 2 cents. the difference between a smokers choice and a non smokers choice is that smokers choose to risk their lives regardless. it stinks, it's a carcinogen. i have accepted that. its as simple as why should a non-smoker have to deal with the stench and the side effects of secondhand smoke because we may want to smoke inside? we choose to smoke.. you cannot say that anyone was forced to start smoking. i personally have no problem stepping outside to have a burn.. it's my problem, and i understand that even though i have the choice to smoke and risk my life, people who don't choose to shouldnt have to risk their lives to eat/drink/socialize where i feel like smoking.




because my secondhand smoke will potentially give him cancer.. his tats won't give me Hep because we're eating at adjacent booths.

I agree if it is in a non smoking establishment, take it outside OR don't eat there!


but what if the owner is a smoker and wants to allow customers to smoke in his place.

Where my grievance comes to play is that a business owner is forced to cater to those that the GOVERNMENT say you have to service - it's not a free choice!
Government restrictions are not freedom's.

It's our FREEDOM of Choice that has been compromised.

I believe this should be a free country not a restricted one especially if the restriction infringes on a legitimate private investment and the right to a targeted market.

It's Cigarette's now, and SUV's tomorrow, and next week it will be Neapolitan Mastiff's, and then what?
Grey auto's because they aren't very visible at dusk and dawn?

We have been seeing an increase in laws to control people over the past 231 years.

Americans are being caught blind sided - did you know that when Hungary was communist that they were more small business friendly than the United States is now?

Communism vs the current USA are nearly the same now-a-days.

Did you see where that couple in Red China fought for 3 years to prevent a construction company from taking their home before the government forced them into selling ....

... compare that to the recent laws that allow a court to force a property sale from a private person in the USA ...

It looks like less and less difference every year! :headshake2:

[rbishop]

Okay folks..please heed my previous post and now, keep the politics out of it. Thanks.

Aquaria Central will not allow any posts which incorporate politics or religion in any form in the forums.

[electromen]

Okay folks..please heed my previous post and now, keep the politics out of it. Thanks.

Aquaria Central will not allow any posts which incorporate politics or religion in any form in the forums.
Sorry Bob. I didn't mean for it to get like this. I just wanted a casual conversation.

Once again, I apologize.

[Mgamer20o0]

ok didnt read it all. i know people who are in construction. the more rich the area the more they ignore you and dont even see you. they dont want to be bothered.

are these new homes or just doing upgrades or fixing?

[rbishop]

No need to apologize, electromen. :)

I would like to see things stay on track for everyones enlightenment and discussion. Some topics run deep for all of us and occassionally, opposing points of few or counter points become perceived as an attack on one's person.

I am enjoying the discussion.:grinyes:

[THEJRC]

Some topics run deep for all of us and occassionally, opposing points of few or counter points become perceived as an attack on one's person.


Well said and it sorta fits into the whole conversation as well. It's human nature to stand up for ones convictions. And to be honest it'd be pretty boring if that werent the case. The ability to moderate ourselves in public engagements (and help moderate others when needed) is just another wonderful ability we intelligent humans have! Yaay for intelligence

The same intelligence gives us the ability to not read, listen to, or watch something that we dont feel works into our own ideals. Much like business owners have to make the choice on who works for them, who doesnt, what clients they serve, and what image they create for themselves. It's all one big interconnected circle.

This whole thread got me thinking (as a small business owner myself). If I were going to hire another employee today out of the diverse group of applicants I would be much more apt to pick someone with body art who knows how to make his own judgement call on hiding it, or the guy who always wears interesting suspenders or socks or hats or whatever than the stade professional who looks uptight in his suit.

But then again part of my company image is my own diverse habit of wearing a different hat every day. What good would it do an employer AND employee to hire a member of staff that does not fit into the culture. The employee will often be uncomfortable and vice versa, and many times it doesnt breed a good healthy workplace.

That being said, the reality is THERE IS NO RULE, never was.... just a billion exceptions and a whole load of decisions on what is right or not...

I miss being 9, I didnt have to worry about any of this stuff!

[electromen]

Well said and it sorta fits into the whole conversation as well. It's human nature to stand up for ones convictions. And to be honest it'd be pretty boring if that werent the case. The ability to moderate ourselves in public engagements (and help moderate others when needed) is just another wonderful ability we intelligent humans have! Yaay for intelligence

The same intelligence gives us the ability to not read, listen to, or watch something that we dont feel works into our own ideals. Much like business owners have to make the choice on who works for them, who doesnt, what clients they serve, and what image they create for themselves. It's all one big interconnected circle.

This whole thread got me thinking (as a small business owner myself). If I were going to hire another employee today out of the diverse group of applicants I would be much more apt to pick someone with body art who knows how to make his own judgement call on hiding it, or the guy who always wears interesting suspenders or socks or hats or whatever than the stade professional who looks uptight in his suit.

But then again part of my company image is my own diverse habit of wearing a different hat every day. What good would it do an employer AND employee to hire a member of staff that does not fit into the culture. The employee will often be uncomfortable and vice versa, and many times it doesnt breed a good healthy workplace.

That being said, the reality is THERE IS NO RULE, never was.... just a billion exceptions and a whole load of decisions on what is right or not...

I miss being 9, I didnt have to worry about any of this stuff!

Good points.

[electromen]

I should be clear about this though, as I don't think I was in my original post.

I don't just walk into a job wearing short sleeves, unshaven, and completely unpresentable. The fact was, it was really hot out and I had a t-shirt underneath the long sleeve, so I took it off. Within a few minutes the owner of the company showed up, and I was on a roof and wasn't able to get to my long sleeve.

What I'm getting to is I'm not an advocate for unpresentable employees. Its common sense to be presentable.

I figured I'd throw that out there.

[THEJRC]

Victim of timing!

The interesting one is why he told you to get lost rather than asking you to keep your arms covered. Most the time everythings solved by a simple "hey can you..." Seems pretty passive agressive to me that he would avoid that confrontation and let you go as an alternative. Might be for the best though, if he's that passive agressive maybe you dont want to work for him.

[electromen]

Thats what I was thinking. It was a great crew though, one of the best ones I've ever worked with.

[THEJRC]

man I suppose all I can say is "bummer"

Some people form opinions and react rather than being proactive in gathering information and making educated decisions. If it were me I'd tell you to put a shirt on until beer:30

I must say the whole thing got me wondering though, I wear hats all the time and have my own little weird quirky image. Since most of my clients are retainer contracts and I'm well in I dont really notice the first impression stage anymore. But I cant help but wonder how many people see me places and think "look at this Jack**s" I suppose I could change but eh....

I do alright, not rich but I aint exactly crying either

[electromen]

It was a bummer, but it was all for the best.. It makes me think too. The whole reason I got into construction was for the freedom of expression, as its not such a big deal to look a certain way in that field, or the many fields it has. I just think it'll make me approach the next job search with a different attitude.. to ensure this doesn't happen again as I have a baby on the way now.

[Que]

That sounds like a good plan. I know a framer who's got to be one of the hardest working guys I know. He's the boss and he's inked.

As others have hinted, maybe this boss just wasn't right for you. I hope you find a more understanding and tolerant place to work soon.

Q