Fertilizer/Nutrient MUST-HAVE list?

[nanahachi]

Hey All
I'm very much a newb, and have tried searching for info for fertilizers that I'll need to add to my tank. In fact, I really need to order some for my tank ASAP, and want to place a bigals order today if possible. So I was hoping to compile a list of Fertilizer must-haves that could be helpful to everyone, not just myself.

I know there are lots of threads about what fertilizers people can/should use in their specific situations, but maybe this could be a FAQ-like thread, maybe even a sticky thread, listing the main fertilizer solutions, and what they are used for, as well as which are truly MUST-HAVEs and which are just advisable to have.

the little bit I've gathered so far:

Must Haves:
Flourish liquid- trace elements
Root tabs - Jobes or Flourish - nutrients for roots
Nu-Salt - potassium - a must have?

Others - I could use advice in regards to these in particular, please excuse my lack of knowledge
Flourish Iron - all plants? only red plants?
Flouish Potassium - ?
Fleet Enema - Phosphates - all plants? a must have?

My tank seems to be currently suffering a nutrient deficiency, according to a nearby LFS. I am currently only using the Hagen CO2 thing (which isnt putting out many bubble...1 per 30 or 40 secs the other night...only about a week old) and my JBJ 65W compact flourescent light. My plants are melting (losing leaves, dissolving, leaves losing color and turning translucent...) and my tank has been running for a few weeks now.

As of Sat or Sun night (I have it written down at home):
pH around 6.8
Amonia under 0.3
Nitrite about 1.3 (or is it 1.6?)

I am going to order a KH (water hardness?) kit from bigals along with the ferts.

Thanks so much for your help. I really hope we can get a nice list going that people can refer to when they need ferts. Again, please excuse me if this is a stupid or redundant idea. Maybe i just didnt see it if something like this already exists.

[famman]

Is this a new tank? I notice an ammonia and nitrite reading.
Change water.
Stuff more plants in, re-charge the CO2, add flourish (traces), no-salt (potassium) to start.
Later you can start dosing fleet enema (phosphate), epsom salts (magnesium), iron, stump remover (nitrate) as warranted.
spend some time searching for and reviewing posts in this forum by plantbrain.
good luck
:)

[djlen]

Give us some info on your tank's water parameters. Do you have any test kits for pH,gH,kH,nitrites,ammonia,nitrates?
The more info you can supply the better able we are to help.
Read this(both pages) and then reply with your info:
http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml
Len

[nanahachi]

Hi Len

unfortunately I only have 3 test kits right now, and I did specify my tank's pH, Amonia, and Nitrite levels above in my first post. I'll see if I can hit the LFS for a Carbonate Hardness kit today, but I'm not sure I'll make it over before they close. Plus, I am trying to place an order at bigals, so it would be much cheaper to order it online anyways.

If anyone wants to know whats going on with my tank, I have a recent thread over in Freshwater Newbie:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11088

I was told I had some "bad" bacteria which was melting my plants by one LFS, but have recently been told that it in fact is most like a nutrient deficiency problem. That is the major reason for my search for fertilizers, since I am currently not using any.

Thanks for your suggestions and willingness to help.

If you or anyone has any basic fertizlier suggestions in general, not just for my situation, I think it might be useful to people who come to this site to see what common/popular fertilizers are.

thanks again

[carpguy]

Plants have been the trickiest bit for me by far. Expect some trials and errors (those are plural on purpose :rolleyes: ). They also make the tank IMHO, worth every bit of the effort.

I got frustrated with DIY CO2 (http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html) and went pressurized about 10 days ago. Other folks have had good results and are very happy with it. Flourish Excel can be a good carbon source, especially for low to moderate light tanks. Don't underestimate what the role of carbon in whatever form. Big difference is an understatement :eek: :eek: .

I use Flourish for traces and Flourish Iron (guess what thats for). Going to try some Flourish Tabs but unless you have heavy root feeders I don't think tabs are a must have.

Not like N P and K. Available in handy DIY concoctions like Spectracide Stump Remover, NuSalt and Fleet Enema. If your going to use a different brand be sure to read the label and be certain you know whats going in the water -- they're not all the same.

You should take a look at this archived thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2529) and these two Plantbrain articles -- one (http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml) and two (http://www.aquatic-plants.org/fert/est_index/est_index1.html).

Must haves: Flourish (or some other microblend), a reliable carbon source (required at your light levels or expect uncontrollable algae), a ready supply of the Macros to dose as needed, and curiousity paired with a willingness to read and ask questions (this last bit is the most important).

Good luck…

[nanahachi]

great! thanks guys

so far I have...

Absolute Must Haves

For Traces - use Flourish - 10mls 2x week
For Nitrate (N) - use Spectracide Stump Remover
For Phosphate (P) - use Fleet Enema - 3 or 4 drops after water change. Test at mid week and if under .5ppm dose again to reach 1.0ppm.
For Potassium (K) - use No-Salt / Nu-Salt - 1/4 tsp. per 20 gals. after water change. Or you can mix a stock solution and keep in the refrigerator. Mix 1tbsp. K2SO4 with tap water in a 300ml bottle. Shake WELL until dissolved and dose 10ml 2x week in a tank of 30 gal. and over and 1x week in a tank smaller than 30 gal.


Should Haves
For Magnesium - use Epsom Salt
For Iron - use Flourish Iron - 5mls per 20 gals. 2x week
For Carbon - use Flourish Excel?? (that was just a guess...please feel free to suggest something else)

Along with your fertilizer suggestions, perhaps you guys could also include dosages and whether you think this idea of having a post/thread listing fertilizers as a Sticky/FAQ is at all helpful.

thanks so much for the help, esp djlen's posts in other threads (dosage info by djlen taken from Aquafreak's earlier this month http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10177)

[carpguy]

I think for dosages its very much a play it by ear sort of thing. I have a certain amount of specific plants that are removing X nutrients from the water column. Your different amount of different plants may use twice as much or half as much. The fish may be able to provide enough nitrogen or you may need to dose, phospahtes from fish food etc. Your tapwater may have sufficient GH, KH, heavy nitrates or not. Lighting effects growth rates and changes fert intake. Trying to find the balance is the tricky part.

Flourish and the 3 DIY macros are a good place to start. Iron and magnesium aren't as critical (how high is your natural GH, can the plants get the iron (chelation), can they get enough from the flourite, etc).

From the other thread I saw that you were over 3wpg.

The excel may or may not do it for you and its expensive in the long run. I think it works better in somewhat lower light tanks. Carbon is a definite must-have at your light level. Look at DIY, look at pressurized. Nothing has made a bigger difference in my tank than the CO2.

[djlen]

I agree with all that Carpguy says in the above thread. Start with the recommended dosages, and see how your tank does. You can tweak from there. A word about Iron. Plants tend to store Iron and it is probably not needed from the get-go. I have learned, for my tanks, to look for Iron deficiencies before dosing it as it has caused algae issues for me.
With your lighting you're going to have to pump up your CO2 or I can almost guarantee you that you're going to have algae problems down the road.
When you get your gH/kH test kit and find out your kH you'll be able to check to see what your CO2 level is and adjust from there. The ideal level for CO2 is 25-30ppm. You don't need the Flourish Excel if your injecting CO2.
One other thing. I have found what I consider a better source for KNO3. If your pharmacy doesn't have it they can order it for you. It's called Salt Petre. It's 100% KNO3 and finer, whiter and looks more pure to me than the Spectracide Stump Remover that I've been using. Some people have had issues with other stump removers, so try to get Spectracide if you don't get the Salt Petre.
This is my own personal opinion. Others may/will disagree. I do not use root tabs, especially Jobes Sticks. I have had good success(too good, they're huge) with Amazon Swords and Crypts(both heavy root feeders) without substrate fertilization and have heard too many horror stories of people pulling them up accidentally and causing huge algae blooms in their tanks. Use your own discretion on that one.
Len

[nanahachi]

hmmm, thanks guys

right now I only have the Hagen CO2 thing, which for some reason is only putting out 1 bubble every 40 secs. I started using it a week and a half ago. is something wrong with it? I DO need to cut the hose to a shorter length, but otherwise everything seems ok.

So with the Hagen, which is putting out so little CO2, should I add addtl carbon?

I was thinking about pressurized CO2 tanks, but dont know if I am going to continue the plant route if I am going to be moving to So. California and will have to disassemble my tank (I may switch to dwarf cichilds, maybe small Africans, which seem to like high pH). Also, it seems so costly (I always want to buy the best, so I'm sure I would spend more than the $150 that is often stated from that one page ppl always refer to)

anyway, I guess I should hold off on my order until I read your responses. Thanks so much carpguy and djlen

[plantbrain]

East Bay Mud has tap about KH of 2 or so, PO4 around 0.5ppm.

This is good water. You will need to add a little baking soda for KH and a little PO4 as well.

The essentials:
pH/KH/GH test kit

KNO3 for NO3
K2SO4 for K
KH2PO4 for PO4.
Trace mix, TMG, Flourish etc
SeaChem Equilibrium for GH

Albany Aquarium on San Pablo Ave is the best shop you will find.
They have a big old bag of KH2PO4 and you should be able to get KNO3 and K2SO4 locally.

Your pH is too high, you need more CO2 in the water. 6.3 to 6.5 if you are not adding any baking soda.

Also, how big's your tank?
I can tell you pretty much what to add each week combined witha 50% water change a week. You dose to prevent deficiencies and do frequent water changes to prevent build up of excesses. This way you have a simple routine that works very well and requirre less guessing and testing.

Something folks tend not to do well......and the above method is simple.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[nanahachi]

Thanks so much Tom. Actually, it was Gee/Gi (sp) that kicked off the whole aquatic plant interest for me. I was just hoping to have a few anubias in my tank, but i fell in love with 2 of his show tanks...and now of course I want Amano/Ghost shrimp just like in his 10g show tank.

[However, it was also at Albany Aquarium that I was told that it was "bad bacteria" that was causing my plants to dissolve and suffer the way that they are...so I am skeptical of the advice they give. I love how close they are to me, and often have what I need, but my current fav. shop is Nippon Goldfish]

My tank is 20g long.
JBJ 65W compact flor. light.
Ebo Jager 125W heater
Hagen CO2 Plant Gro system
pH test kit, Amonia test kit, Nitrite test kit, KH test kit on the way.

I was going to test my tanks levels last night but fell asleep too early...

So Tom, and everyone else, since you say that my CO2 is too low...can I do something to make my Hagen produce higher bubble count? Since I want to place an order today, should I just order some of the Flourish Excel until I spring for a pressurized system?

I know it is highly recommended by some people, but is DI water necessary?

thanks everybody

[djlen]

I don't know why so many people are having trouble with those Hagen systems. But join the crowd.
With a 20 gal. you could get away with DIY CO2 until you get a pressurized system. IMO, Flourish Excel is not cost effective.
Here is a good explanation of both pressurized and DIY CO2 systems. Karen Randall also gives a recipe for DIY about 2/3 down the page. This is a good, cheap alternative to pressurized for a 20 gal. tank until you decide what you want to do about CO2.
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/aquatic/default.asp
You have really good lighting and now you've got all the info you need. The ferts are easy to obtain.
Good luck
Len

[plantbrain]

Guy is pronounced "Gee" in dutch.

DIY CO2 often has trouble adding enough CO2. I think folks need to be vigilent with it to work well over the long term.

You need to address this before dealing with NO3, K, Traces etc.

I know Guy and I know Steve and Ernie over at Nippon. I'm pretty good friends with all of them.

I have done planted tank mainteance contracts with both of them over the years for their clients. 6th Street Aquarium off of Clement: David Chang, there's Mei Lan and Alameda also in the east bay.
Another company that is a fav is Ocean on Cedar off of Van Ness. Justin and wife are nice and you'll be interested in their tanks. Funky seedy place but good.

You can use excel till you get a pressure system or upgrade and fiddle with the DIY. I opt for the DIY.
I have some internal efficent reactors for DIY and Gas systems, they will work on both if you are interested. I can tell you how to set them up to get high CO2. They will do that with DIY. That way you would not need to buy one later when you get the gas set up.
I have a couple of used internals, about 10-15$ ea and the extrnals run 35$ and 45$ w pump(only have one). Includes shipping for the externals.

I have all sorts of stuff I'm trying to reduce down.
CaCl2, about 7lbs for sale(This +MgSO4 Epsom salt= all you need for GH additions).
10$ plus shipping.
3- CO2 reactors,1 w/no pump, 35$, 45$ w/pump each
one sump style CO2 reactor with pump, 50$(slightly used)
2 internal CO2 diffusers, 10$ each, used.
Swamp cedar driftwood
Cypress knees
Wet dry sump, simple tupperware sump/drip plate and bioballs+ Amircale Prefilter- 70$ good for 125 gal or so. Surge 6000 pump-40$

Email off list if interested.
I'll have the wood for some time. Some bought some and then called back for more.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[nanahachi]

oooh goodies for sale! I just emailed you Tom, from the email link in your profile. Also, i didnt know the particulars of Guy's name. I know about the French/Dutch pronounciation of "Guy" but since I don't really know his background....I went with phoenetics :p thanks for the correction. Unfortunately, he's only been in the store twice when I've been there, but I talk to Tam and Finae (again, sp?) on a regular first name basis.

As far as CO2 goes, I'm struggling to decide if pressurized CO2 is right for me and my puny 20g tank. I was told by the folks at Nippon Goldfish that a pressurized system might be overkill for me tank. [They also recommended that I check out Justin's shop on Cedar :D ]

I was reading over the $150 CO2 cannister solution (http://www.dlink.org/aqua/CO2.html) using THIS 5lb tank and valve for $104 (http://rapidswholesale.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RWOCAS&Product_Code=BD435&Category_Code=BEKIT). I guess instead of constantly fighting with failing DIY efforts, I would rather shell out the $150, but I would prefer to spend as little as possible right now (poor finances at the moment). Also, is that tank, valve combo for $104 decent? are there better systems to get? At Nippon Goldfish they had a beautiful setup on a 40g [upstairs on the counter] but it would retail betwen $300-400. I was recommened the Hagen because its easy to use, and would work for my 20g, but since my results have been mixed, I am very open to DIY yeast recipes or other DIY solutions.

I would love to stay away from constant testing my levels if possible. Tom, your "add during every water change" idea souds good to me if i have less guesswork and testing to do.

I guess I will order from BigAls the following...because I need some nutrients in the tank asap:
Flourish
Flourish tabs for my substrate which is just gravel, no flourite/laterite or onyx (root plants: anubias, swords)
Seachem EQ
Carbonate Test kit
the Nutra Matic autofeeder for when I'm out of town, and since I can never feed my fish in the mornings--any thoughts on this feeder?

[plantbrain]

You've gotten good advice for these folks.

You can put together a set up with tank, 5lb, regulator for 99$
Needlvalve 10.10$ and a reactor(www.clippard.com => Call and ask them for the 4 series and tell them you are attaching it an 1/8" brass thread pipe and the out port needs to be 1/8" barbed.
They have an adapter to match the 1/16" to 1/8"pipe and Home depot has the 1/4 to 1/8" brass reducing bushing for about 1$.

If you plan on having more than one tank with CO2, buy 2-4 etc needle valves. Adding a T is a simple process and once you have a gas tank/reg all you need to buy is a reactor/needle valve to add another completely independently control CO2 enriched tank. Gas tanks get cheap then and they are much easier to use. If you are serious about getting into plants, you will do well to do this step.

I forget the guys site that has the email for the 99$ deal.
Anyone have it?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[nanahachi]

I guess I have a lot of looking to do, but any thoughts on this?

CO2 System Connects (CO2 Tank To Keg) Includes 2 Gauge Regulator, Gas Connect, 1/4" Tubing, (2) Clamps. Please specify ball or pin lock
http://www.beer-wine.com/details/EQP5304_5.gif
EQP5304 @ $73.20 (http://www.beer-wine.com/kegging.htm#EQP5304)

If anyone knows the deal that Tom mentioned, please do let us know

I guess I'll start doing research on CO2 tanks, and will prob start a thread on that at some point if I cant seem to find enough.

Carpguy, Plantbrain, Famman, DJlen, everyone, THANKS SO MUCH for all of your help! :D really, its be a tremendous help to have you guys around to answer my newbish questions. I hope a mod/admin will consider allowing us to make a short MUST have fertilizer thread cut from the guts of this thread.

thanks again

[djlen]

I think the unit Tom is talking about is at Rapids. You'll find a link for it on this page: http://www.dlink.org/aqua/CO2.html
This is the system I bought. I use everything on that page except the Home Depot needle valve. That can be bought here:
www.clippard.com
I'm very happy with the whole set up. In fact I used the Home Depot needle valve for about a month and it worked ok, but required too much fiddling with. Not nearly as precise as the Clippard valve.
In place of the diffuser at the bottom I picked up a Hagen 402 Power Head(for my 55 gal.). You can get away with a smaller power head for a smaller tank.
Len

[nanahachi]

since we are OT anyway....would you guys recommend using bubble counter? the beautiful solenoid valve/regulator (?) i saw in person had 2 guages & bubble counter attached I believe...

also, are diffusers too expensive, & thus the use of powerheads? any specific recs would help.

ok, tonight the CO2 tank info search, and new thread will begin...i hope. :p

thanks guys, youre huge help as always