Cycling Started

[buballo]

Hi All,
I have commenced the cycling process for my new 55G tank. I live in Australia and due to the lack of ammonia supply in any of our stores I have decided to attempt the fishless cycle with the use of a raw prawn. I have chucked it in a stocking and am basically trying to follow rbishops sticky (btw thanks to rbishop for spending the time making the cycle process much MORE UNDERSTANDING).

The only question I have is the topping up of ammonia. In rbishops thread he explained the use of pure ammonia drops and adding to this to maintain ammonia at a particular level. Do I do the same with the prawn? If one prawn is not enough to achieve the initial 5ppm do I keep adding? And when nitrites form do I remove some of the prawn to lower the ammonia level?

It may sound silly, I just dont want to stuff this up. Thanks

[Rbishop]

Thanks for the comments!

Don't let the ammonia get to high. If it starts going over 6 or 7 ppm, do small water changes to drag it down.

Add small chunks of shrimp to help hold around the 3 ppm mark. Kind of hard to judge. I still hold at three even when nitrites show up.

Do you have any FW tanks that you can get some established media from? friends? LFS?

[buballo]

I should be thanking you more often rbshop. You always seem to be forthcoming in helping many people in dilemna on this forum.

I have added a full prawn minus the head. I do have friend with an established tank but I dont want the risk of contaminating mine as they dont maintain it weekly on every 4 to 6 weeks. I dont trust any or our LFS as they all try to sell me products each time I ask the question of fishless cycling.

So I will make sure I keep the ammonia under 6 ppm to start. If it goes over I have some in the freezer I will remove the current one and add small pieces. I t may take a wek onger in the end but time is something I have and I really dont want to kill any fish.

I will keep you posted and ask you to bail e out if I run into any problems.

Once again, I really appreciate your help. I think you have responded to every post I have made. Thanks

[ct-death]

Time is on your side. With that, using another tanks medium will greatly accelerate this process (my LFS sells sponges for $8) and if you wait more than a 4-5 weeks after introducing any media from another tank the time delay and ammonia spikes will kill off anything parasitic, bacterial, etc.

The main risk would be algae I would think, but with no nitrAtes (plant food) the risk here I feel is minimal, but again, the only way to be 100% certain is to do it the 'ol-fashion way! Algae is simply inevitable(sp?).

As for the cycle itself, when your nitrItes start to spike your ammonia is going to be consumed and cycled over at an alarming rate. Keeping up with this will be your biggest issue.

Please keep us posted, I am very interested to see how this plays out in the real world, what's the hickups, etc. Great experiment! :D

P.S.
rBishop, and all of the Moderators deserve a lot more kudos than they receive... Great forum!!! ;)

[Nolapete]

I agree with ct. Any parasites wouldn't survive without a host.

[buballo]

Thanks for the input.
I will give it 3 - 5 days to see what happens with the ammonia and if nitrites start to form (maybe). Then I will see which course of action I will take.

As of this morning (sydney time) 12 hours later, no Ammonia was detected. Will check again tonight.

As I am a newbie to all this I will need your help in this proceedure. I will keep u posted in any change or procedure I take. But I think for now I will keep going with my headless prawn. I am really hoping I detect some ammonia by tomorrow morning. I have the temp of the tank at around 28 degress.

BTW, I have a fair bit of condensate forming on my tank lids from the underside, is there any way of stopping that?

[Aphotic Phoenix]

It will take a little time for the ammonia to start to build up since you pretty much have to wait for the shrimp to start decomposing! Keep checking it daily. ^^

Condensation is normal, and as it drips back down into the tank helps keep all your water from evaporating out.

[Rbishop]

Waiting for your updates!

[Mgamer20o0]

not using ammonia is a little harder and a little more work but the ends that matter. just keep checking it. you will find the balance soon.

[buballo]

24 hours have gone and nothing yet. The prawn still looks good. I better see something in the morning.

[Rbishop]

Don't rush it buddy, let nature take it's course.

[buballo]

Okay, this is gonna be a bit embarressing ...but...I did not read the instructions to the ammonia test properly. That is because and only because I am an idiot. Now there are 2 test bottles not the 1 in the API master kit. Please read the statement above...I am an idiot. The bad news is I have let everyone on the forum know how stupid I am. The absolutely great news is my ammonia level is detectable at somewhere between 0.5 and 1. I think at a guess I would say 0.75. So the prawn is producing ammonia.

So as a precautionary measure I decided to test nitrites...and yes i read the instructions and there is only 1 bottle to use. Surprisingly there was a very slight hint that nitrites were also forming. By the colour I would say under the 0.25 mark.

Since I tested all that. I tested the nitrates as well.

So In summary after 24 hours we have:

Ammonia 0.75
Nitrites 0.15
Nitrates 0.00

Will test again in 12 to 24 hours.

[buballo]

36 hours gone and:

Ammonia 0.75
Nitrites 0.15
Nitrates 0.00

[Mgamer20o0]

everyone screws up.... it happens. do you have nitrites in your water? most of the time it takes week for nitrites to show up.

[Rbishop]

The good thing is you learned from the experience, as others might by reading this thread. Hang in there...you are on your way!

[buballo]

everyone screws up.... it happens. do you have nitrites in your water? most of the time it takes week for nitrites to show up.

I was surprised as well. It seems there was a very small trace of nitrites. It could be the the colour chart is slightly different to reality and gives the perception of nitrites. Who knows. I think after tonight I will test once every 24 hours. If there is no significant change tonight I will throw in another prawn.

[Mgamer20o0]

yes it could be that. sounds good.

[buballo]

Ok...chucked in another prawn last night and tested this morning. Ammonia was above 1 somewhere. The bad news though is the smell is horrible. My wife wants it gone. Might not be able to see this through. Might have to resort to a fishy cycle (although I really did not want to). I dont thisnk I have any options though.

[jm1212]

ammoina is going to stink no matter what you do.

[buballo]

Ok...so I am doing the fishy c ycle at the moment. I really tried not to but all my options were exhausted and the prawn smell was disgusting. I have just done a 20 % water change and my PH sky rocketed to above 7 I would say around 7.4, Should I be worried...what should I do?

[mellowvision]

relax.

[Coler]

Ok...so I am doing the fishy c ycle at the moment. I really tried not to but all my options were exhausted and the prawn smell was disgusting. I have just done a 20 % water change and my PH sky rocketed to above 7 I would say around 7.4, Should I be worried...what should I do?

What's the Ph straight out of the tap ?

Leave some tap water in a saucer over night and test it then. This is your 'true' Ph.

So you're fishy cycling :

1. Get a good liquid test kit. API makes a good one. Use it twice daily to check ammonia/nitrite. If either are over .25 ppm do whatever water change is necessary to bring it down. Twice daily if necessary; let your test results dictate your water change schedule.

2. Prime is a great conditioner which also detoxifies ammonia (and nitrite at high doses). Not a substitute for water changes but will help reduce the damage of the fish cycle.

[buballo]

What's the Ph straight out of the tap ?

Leave some tap water in a saucer over night and test it then. This is your 'true' Ph.

So you're fishy cycling :

1. Get a good liquid test kit. API makes a good one. Use it twice daily to check ammonia/nitrite. If either are over .25 ppm do whatever water change is necessary to bring it down. Twice daily if necessary; let your test results dictate your water change schedule.

2. Prime is a great conditioner which also detoxifies ammonia (and nitrite at high doses). Not a substitute for water changes but will help reduce the damage of the fish cycle.

Coler,
Good idea, I will test the PH straight from the tap. But I distinctly remember it be around the 6.8 mark prior to the change. I am slightly concerned as I know Malawi cichlids tend to like lower PH levels.

I have the API master test kit, my ammonia has been slightly above zero, so yesterday I perforemd a 20% change with a gravel clean and when I retested the colour of the test was the same, so I assume this is just the difference from the colour chart to the actual test, so my real ammonia was actually zero. My nitrites have remained at zero.

I treat the water prior to the water change, however, I have een using a product called stress Zyme which is supposed to place live bacteria in the tank. If this is the case, will I ever see ammonia or nitrite in the tank? How would I know if I am cycled. 1 white cloud has unfortunately died during the cycle thus far. I just dont know how I am supposed to know if I am cycled if I add the bacteria to kill the ammonia, will nitrites ever form??

[Coler]

Coler,
Good idea, I will test the PH straight from the tap. But I distinctly remember it be around the 6.8 mark prior to the change. I am slightly concerned as I know Malawi cichlids tend to like lower PH levels.

Nope they prefer higher - 8 to 8.2 is ideal


I treat the water prior to the water change, however, I have een using a product called stress Zyme which is supposed to place live bacteria in the tank. If this is the case, will I ever see ammonia or nitrite in the tank? How would I know if I am cycled. 1 white cloud has unfortunately died during the cycle thus far. I just dont know how I am supposed to know if I am cycled if I add the bacteria to kill the ammonia, will nitrites ever form??

OK well if the stress zyme worked you would see no ammonia or nitrite but a wide body of opinion says its snake oil as regards instant bacterial colonies and you shouldn't rely on it. I'm betting you start seeing ammonia and nitrite too eventually.

You will know you are cycled when you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite for a few days and nitrates are rising slowly (keep them below 20).

The bacteria don't kill the ammonia. They act upon it in fact to form nitrite.A second culture of nitrifying bacteria then colonise this waste product and produce nitrates. You are cycled when there are sufficient bacteria so as to prevent ammonia or nitrite from being present due to their intense and practically instant activity.

Bearing in mind that you mentioned malawis - don't keep them with white cloud minnows.

[buballo]

I have tested all my water again and all seems good. Thus far I have had my spray bar from my eheim fully submerged and have had an air stone in use to oxygenated the water. I had it on full force so bubbles would break the water surface. I have now lifted the spray bar slightly above the surface and lowered the pump for the air stone. I noticed that the spray bar wwould cause a lot of bubbles along the the water surface, it was almost foamy. Is this normal??

[buballo]

Ok,
11 days into my fishy cycle. I have tested daily. I have had no trace amounts of ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. I am staring to think it is the stress zyme that does not allow ammonia to develop. Could this be the case?

I still have 11 white clouds in perfect health. Could it be possible that I have had a mini cycle and that I can slowly introduce more and more fish?

[Coler]

I would say no...you're cycled when you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, slowly increasing nitrates (this tank is not heavily planted if I recall correctly).

I don't know what effect stress zyme has on a cycle but I think the above still holds true - the key sign is the nitrates increasing slowly while ammonia/nitrite stays at 0.

What I'm a bit surprised by is that you got to a point where you had .5 - 1 ppm ammonia, .15 or so nitrite before you changed to a fish cycle. I presume you did a big water change before putting in the minnows. I would have read your readings however as saying that you had some nitrifying bacteria in the tank before putting the fish in, so would have expected some readings of ammonia, nitrite for a while before finalling stabilising as described above.

I take it you used a good dechlorinator on your water changes and are performing the tests correctly - in particular on the API nitrate test you have to shake bottle 2 vigorously before adding, and then shake the tube vigorously for one minute (sorry have to ask) ?

For now I would say keep testing & doing water changes as necessary until you see nitrates.

[Rbishop]

:iagree:

[buballo]

Coler,
Prior to putting the fish in I did a 98% clean out of the tank. I did not want to place the fish into a stress fullenvironment straight away. I thought it would be best if there was a gradual build up. whilst they were in there to aid in acclimatising them to their new environment. I then let the filter run for a day prior to adding the fish and ensured there was no trace amounts of any bacteria. I dont know if this was correct but I though I would start out from saratch to prevent any problems.

I have been performing the tests as per you have mentioned I have also used the ammonia alert by seachem as a secondary measure to ensure I have ironed out any probability of error with ammonia readings.

I also went through a stage of 3 days where it appeared the watert appeared to be very cloudy and assumed there was some sort of bacteria bloom. This cleared after adding the second portion of stress zyme on the 7th day. FYI when using stress zyme to establish a tank you only add on the 1st, 7th and the 14th day then with weekly water changes.

The good thing is I have plenty of time and not in a rush. I am just a bit surprised that the fish are all happy been there for 11 days and I have not been required to even do a water change. I will still test daily.

Thanks for your help again guys, I really do appreciate it!!!

[buballo]

15 days have gone now with not trace of ammonia. I bought cloudy ammonia to test my seachem ammonia alert and API master kit on. There is definitely nothing wrong with my test kit or the ammonia alert as both pick up the ammonia straight away.

The fish are definitely pooping, I really am starting to think it is the stress zyme. I will hold off adding any more and see what happens.

[buballo]

Hi all,
Now on day 20 just did all my testing. My ammonia is at around 0.25-0.50, nitrites are 0.1 and no nitrates. I have stopped using the stress zyme and it seems 5 days on my first signs of the cycle process. THanks for the help again guys.
buballo

[buballo]

DAy 24:
trItes were still rising and ammonia dropper very slightly. Its also te first time that trAte registered something I could measure.
Ammonia 0.25
trItes 1.0
trAtes 5ppm
Should I do a partial water changes and a gravel vacuum now that trAtes appear?

[buballo]

Day 34:
Ammonia very close to 0
NitrItes up around 2.5
NitrAtes 5

[gingerinaustin]

If it were me, with fish in the tank, I would do a water change to get those nitrItes down to 0.5 or less, and treat the new water with Prime. (If it were me)

[buballo]

If it were me, with fish in the tank, I would do a water change to get those nitrItes down to 0.5 or less, and treat the new water with Prime. (If it were me)
Did the water change, 25% and tested again at the end of the day. The levels were pretty much the same and did not go down. I may have to do another tomorrow, what do you think?

[nickmcmechan]

imo, with that level of nitirites, i would be doing 25% water change twice per day using a good dechlorinator such as Prime

[nickmcmechan]

Thanks for the comments!

Don't let the ammonia get to high. If it starts going over 6 or 7 ppm, do small water changes to drag it down.

Add small chunks of shrimp to help hold around the 3 ppm mark. Kind of hard to judge. I still hold at three even when nitrites show up.

Do you have any FW tanks that you can get some established media from? friends? LFS?
ok, i never knew this about the 6/7ppm thing....is it too much to get the cycle going?

[buballo]

imo, with that level of nitirites, i would be doing 25% water change twice per day using a good dechlorinator such as Prime
I am using Hagens Aqua plus...is this good enough?

[nickmcmechan]

I used to use Aqua Plus and it is good enough

However, i switched to prime a couple of months ago for the following advantags it has over aqua plus

- a dechlorinator may well break down chloramine as well - aqua plus does - but when it breaks it down it produces chlorine (dealt with by the dechlorinator) and ammonia. aqua plus does not deal with the ammonia, seachem detoxifies it for your your fish
- high doses of primedetoxify nitrites (see bottle for 5 time dose instructions)
- prime costs me twice as much as aqua plus for same sized bottle, but it lasts up to 10 times longer because you need less, i.e. a 100ml bottle of prime will last the same as a 500ml aqua plus, i.e. effectively less than 1/2 the cost (note i said cost not price)
- all the experienced guys around here give it glowing recommendations

so, aqua plus is good (in fact i have it in my cupboard for back up) but prime is great

[buballo]

Day 47:
WOOHOO, I am finally cycled.
Day 34:
Ammonia: 0
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes rising slowly

Now for some fishes.
Thanks for all the contributions along the way guys. It was really appreciated.

[gingerinaustin]

Congratulations on a job well done!