OHM betta with fin rot: which antibiotic should I use next?

[gingerinaustin]

Hi all--

The OHM betta I bought from a breeder in Thailand for a pretty penny has developed a bad case of fin rot. He's eating, swimming normally, no fin clamping, greets me at the tank as per his usual interactive self, but his beautiful flowy fins are disintegrating by the hour; it's just sickening. His 5 gallon Eclipse Hex is fully cycled (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 20 ppm nitrate) and the temp is at 80. I've tried Maracyn (erythromycin) for 5 days, then Jungle Fungus Clear (nitrofurazone and furazolidone) which has been in for the past two days, and his fins continue to disappear. I did 50% water changes before each different antibiotic. I'd like to try kanamycin, but can't find it. What I can find is Maracyn II (minocycline), tetracycline and triple sulfa.

What should I try next? :help: He's not going to be an OHM for long at this rate...

[mostlycichlids]

Stress is the major cause of fin rot. This could be due to a fish disease such as parasites, or overcrowding, low oxygen levels, bullying, poor water quality etc. The most important first step is to resolve any stressors. If caught early, this may be sufficient.

Id start with a couple water changes a week. A diet including lots of vitamins will help. I would feed live foods for a couple weeks. Make sure your food is not out dated and check your PH. Chloramphenical, Oxytetracycline, and Tetracycline, are the best choices for treating fin rot. Pristine water and a high quality diet will help as well. Oh I would also add some aquarium salt.

In an extreme case trimming the fins can help. heres an article.....

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art23741.asp

[palmbreeze]

Ok my betta had fin rot so bad it turned to body rot! That's my fault and a long story. I had lots of good advice when I posted though. Here is the link....

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100263

Make sure you keep his water really clean. There are lots of article out there on salt baths. Make sure you get the right mixture and the right amount of time if you do this. It seemed to help my betta, but he was just too far gone. I used Maracyn and Maracyn II at the same time.

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks, akapaul. I imagine traveling in a bag from Thailand might be a tad stressful, hmm? But he's here now; I can't control what happened to him before his arrival. The fin rot started about a week after he arrived.

He has no signs or symptoms of parasites--normal colored poo, no darting, rubbing, scratching, spots or fuzziness; just disappearing fins. He's the only fish in a 5 gallon, so he's not overcrowded or bullied. His tank is filtered, so the oxygen levels are well beyond what his ilk would suffer in a rice paddy or lily vase. The water quality in his tank is pristine: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, < 20 nitrate. I don't mess with my pH and don't plan to start; there's no pH up, pH down or pH sideways additives at our house. He's already been through two 50% water changes this week.

He is fed a varied diet of Hikari betta pellets, thawed frozen bloodworms and super veggie kelp flakes (to help keep him regular), all recently purchased, and is not overfed (a max of 2-3 pellets, 2 bloodworms or two veggie flakes per day).

Bettas are not brackish fish and I am extremely hesitant to add salt to the tank of an obviously stressed freshwater fish. I've read up on the pros and cons of salt, and come down firmly on the "no salt" side in regard to bettas (cichlids, I imagine, are a completely different matter).

Sorry, I'm no fish surgeon--there's no way I could trim his fins myself, even if I wanted to. What I want to do is give him the proper medication to knock out the bacteria at play to give him a chance to heal himself. In short, his stressors are minimal, his water quality is ideal, he's failed two antibiotics and the disappearance of his fins is occurring at a frighteningly rapid rate--it's time to pull out the big guns or there will be no betta left to treat. You think tetracycline might do the trick? (I haven't seen oxytetracycline or chloromycetin locally; do you have a brand name I might look for?)

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks palmbreeze. I am trying to arrest this rot before it gets to his body. It is eating away at him so quickly. I really hate to use the salt but if the overwhelming opinion here is pro-salt, then I have some marine salt I use in my brackish tank that I could use to prepare a salt bath (I still would not add salt to his tank).

[palmbreeze]

Don't put the salt in the aquarium! That would be bad! You give him a "bath". You fix up another bowl, container etc. and follow the "recipe" for a salt bath. You add a certain amount of aquarium salt to the other container and let your betta swim for about fifteen minutes (Depending on your betta) You then take your betta out of the "bath" and put him back in his aquarium. From what one expert told me, the betta will release the salt into his aquarium so you would need to do water changes. I don't know if that is true in your case since he is in a filtered aquarium. I had mine QT in a bowl.

[yourchoice]

Looking at the tank looks like you have snails and plants I would take all of them out.

[gingerinaustin]

yourchoice, I have no plants and the snails are in the 55 gallon community tank, not the 5 gallon betta tank. I assure you, the betta is the only inhabitant of the 5 gallon. He has nothing in his tank but the filter, the heater, a SeaChem Ammonia Alert and gravel.

If stress is the major cause of fin rot, wouldn't netting and bathing the betta in salt water be a source of stress? Would the benefits outweigh the risks or not? I don't want to just keep throwing things at this rot hoping something will stick--I want something that WORKS and won't make things worse than they already are for my poor fishie... :sad:

[palmbreeze]

Gosh I feel bad for you! I love Bettas! Kyohti seems to know A LOT about Bettas. She just bought a beautiful Betta from Aquabid. I would PM her and see if she has some advice for you. She helped me out a lot.

[Linariel]

Aquarium salt is not the same as marine salt. Aquarium salt can be therapeutic in times of stress or disease. I don't think marine salt would be a good idea however, as it will change a lot of your water parameters, because it's not just salt. Your pH, hardness, etc will all be different.

Aquarium salt won't change that stuff.

[mostlycichlids]

Thanks, akapaul. I imagine traveling in a bag from Thailand might be a tad stressful, hmm? But he's here now; I can't control what happened to him before his arrival. The fin rot started about a week after he arrived.

He has no signs or symptoms of parasites--normal colored poo, no darting, rubbing, scratching, spots or fuzziness; just disappearing fins. He's the only fish in a 5 gallon, so he's not overcrowded or bullied. His tank is filtered, so the oxygen levels are well beyond what his ilk would suffer in a rice paddy or lily vase. The water quality in his tank is pristine: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, < 20 nitrate. I don't mess with my pH and don't plan to start; there's no pH up, pH down or pH sideways additives at our house. He's already been through two 50% water changes this week.

He is fed a varied diet of Hikari betta pellets, thawed frozen bloodworms and super veggie kelp flakes (to help keep him regular), all recently purchased, and is not overfed (a max of 2-3 pellets, 2 bloodworms or two veggie flakes per day).

Bettas are not brackish fish and I am extremely hesitant to add salt to the tank of an obviously stressed freshwater fish. I've read up on the pros and cons of salt, and come down firmly on the "no salt" side in regard to bettas (cichlids, I imagine, are a completely different matter).

Sorry, I'm no fish surgeon--there's no way I could trim his fins myself, even if I wanted to. What I want to do is give him the proper medication to knock out the bacteria at play to give him a chance to heal himself. In short, his stressors are minimal, his water quality is ideal, he's failed two antibiotics and the disappearance of his fins is occurring at a frighteningly rapid rate--it's time to pull out the big guns or there will be no betta left to treat. You think tetracycline might do the trick? (I haven't seen oxytetracycline or chloromycetin locally; do you have a brand name I might look for?)

Here is a site where you can get all of the antibotics I mentioned. I would try Tetracycline Hydrochloride first. You want something that is going to treat gram positive and gram negative bacterial infections.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products3.html#O

[yourchoice]

Google search " betta talk diseases".Might be your best option trying what they say.

[gingerinaustin]

linariel, that's a good point if I were going to add the salt to the tank--but I'm not. I'm considering a salt bath, but only if the overwhelming opinion is that it would work without further stressing out the fish, and so far, I'm not hearing many folks here advocating salt in this case.

akapaul, great link--thanks! My only concern with the tetracycline is that my pH is right at the limit of 7.5 where the pH might deactivate the tetracycline. (Using the API master freshwater test kit, the water reads 7.4 on the low-range-pH test and 7.6 on the high-range-pH test). Any suggestions on how to deal with that? The two meds I've tried have not killed off my biofilter, so I can only assume they aren't killing off much of anything else, either.

yourchoice, bettatalk recommends tetracycline for bacterial infections, kanamycin for "serious" bacterial infections, and ampicillin for gram positive infections. She says maracyn I/II are ok for mild problems but aren't effective for serious stuff. Can't find kanamycin or ampicillin and there's an issue with the tetracycline and my pH, so I'm not sure what to do at this point.

The rot is still progressing, albeit at a slightly slower rate than yesterday. UGH!

[gingerinaustin]

Before (photo taken by breeder in Thailand):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1372/580890009_80135414b1.jpg


After (photo by me this morning). The rot on his anal fin is new this morning. The rot on his caudal fin is where it all started, and the rot on his dorsal fin has been evolving all week. He even has a bit of rot on his pectoral fins but, oddly, none on the ventrals.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1423/580889871_3e555aae36.jpg

[UCF-Planted]

What a beautiful fellow. Good luck with getting him back to being healthy again.

[Featherfin]

maybe you could try some live plants. mine really seem to appreciate some anacharis or hornwort or anything so sit on.
natural plants might reduce stress

id say try aquarium salt, too.

netting and bathing the betta in salt would be a totally awful idea.

mix the recommended dosage on the aquarium salt carton in a pitcher and drip/siphon it into his aquarium very slowly.

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks, UCF-Planted. He is beautiful. I hope his fins grow back to some semblance of normality.

Featherfin, I don't think I have enough light to grow plants in an Eclipse Hex 5. My one attempt at anubias resulted in rotting plants. Plant rot + fish rot doesn't sound good to me. I put a big hunk of wood with a hole in the middle of it and two silk aquarium plants in his tank last night--he seems to like them. The tank looks more natural, anyway.

Still not sure what to do here. The articles I've found on the use of salt in freshwater tanks to treat disease are in reference to ick, not fin rot, and it seems the calcium and magnesium in my hard water may bind up tetracycline. The fin rot does not seem to have worsened this morning but I see no regrowth. What to do, what to do?

[Star_Rider]

How long was the betta in shipment?

I'd bet those are ammonia burns..not fin rot.

I don't see tell-tale fungus or any weird bacterial slime etc.

if the fish was more than a few days in transport..even ammo-lock will not remove the damaging affects of ammonia.

I have seen similar fin damage in wild angels I have recieved.

keep the water clean..salt won't hurt as it inhibits bacteria.

you can keep the fish in a hypersalinity mix for a short period(few days) with no ill effect.

[gingerinaustin]

star_rider, the betta was in transport for several days; he traveled for several days (3?) from Thailand to a 'transhipper' in the US who repackaged the fish and 2-day mailed it to me. When he arrived, he was in a bag of bright yellow water (antibiotics added??) packed in styrofoam and packing materials. The weird thing is that his fins looked perfect for an entire week after he got to my house, then they just started disappearing. You would think that if it was ammonia burns, the rot would have been more apparent sooner.

I am keeping the water crystal clean; I test it every single day and I'm averaging 50% water changes between the doses of antibiotics.

I noticed more fin rot when I got home today, all along the caudal fin (the big hole has now spread along the full length of his caudal fin). Even though the pH is at the borderline of deactivating the effectiveness of the tetracycline, I threw a dose in his tank tonight anyway, out of sheer desperation. I have some rock salt I could use instead of the marine salt--so how much should I add? I know how to make up a brackish mix and I have a hydrometer--any suggestions as to quantity or an endpoint on the hydrometer I should shoot for? It's a 5 gallon tank but now I have a big hunk of wood in there so it's probably less than 5 gallons of water.

[gingerinaustin]

We're three-quarters of the way through a full tetracycline treatment, and I've added salt to the tank (3/4 teaspoon rock salt--barely registers on the hydrometer at 1.001), and the rot continues to progress. Except for the very front of his anal tail (closest to his head) and his ventral fins, all of his fins have rot on the edges. The pics are oddly colored (tetracycline turns the water red) but you get an idea of how the rot is continuing to spread. And this time, the arrows point to the sections that have been spared from the rot.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1242/631308802_3bd0383005.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1044/630444699_0fa1316b56.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1404/631308590_60b5c9c64e.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1406/631308708_edbb88d1e6.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1350/631308478_ca74d5fdec.jpg
What should I try next??? I've tried erythromycin, nitrofurazone & furazolidone (in the Jungle product), salt and tetracycline and the betta's no bettah...:help::sad::confused:

[gingerinaustin]

no one???

[babychristie]

Fish Site (http://www.bellaonline.com/site/fish)Mary Brennecke (http://www.bellaonline.com/about/fish)
BellaOnline's Fish (http://www.bellaonline.com/site/fish) Editor
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Betta Care - Fin Rot Surgery
Guest Author - Jill Florio and Eileen, AKA EmgBettaNut

Jill here: One of my forum helpers wrote her detailed notes on fin rot surgery in the forum. She gave me permission to reprint her fine advice here. Please do not attempt this kind of treatment unless you have steady hands and are an experienced betta owner. Here is the blog on her experience:

Day One

"Teal has been battling finrot for weeks now..probably almost a month running. I treated him with bettafix/salt for weeks and switched to the stronger meds when that didn't seem to be doing the trick. I was on my third dose of the anti-fungus med when I noticed even more red spots breaking out on his anal fin now!! I added the last dose of the meds and noticed he seemed to be struggling a bit....I decided right then and there I was going to snip off the tips of his fins.

I figured it this way...I could try a different med on him and stress him out even more..and it may not even work and would only serve to weaken him more....or...I could do something drastic, like cut off the finrot. (I read about this being done by some) I decided to try the surgery thing.

OK..here's how it went....

I prepared my stuff:

sanitized a pair of very sharp scissors in boiling water
got two bowls of fresh clean water ready,floated them in Teal's tank to get the temp right.
I added bettafix and extra salt to one bowl and just extra salt to the other.
got out some peroxide and a Q-tip
put a folded towl on the table with a folded clean paper towl on top of that.

OK...

I put the bowl with Teal on the table and also the other two bowls...pouring water from the bowl with the bettafix onto the towel and paper towl so it was good and wet.

I carefully cupped my hand around Teal and took him out of his bowl and put him on the wet paper towel folding it over the top of him leaving only the fins showing. (I'd like to say I managed this without him flopping around with me trying to get him under control...but I didn't). Anyway,I had to pour a bit more water over him so that his fins would spread out...didn't want to take off more than necessary. I quickly snipped off the tips of his tail and his anal fin...making sure I got it all but not taking too much off. I quickly wiped his fins with the peroxide Q-tip and put him in the bowl with salt and an extra drop of stress-coat. I put him in his bowl back in the tank and turned off the light.

Well, it went quickly..poor Teal is so stressed out he just hung head down in his bowl for a bit. He slowly seems to be coming out of it now, though his color is still a bit pale but not nearly as bad as just after the job.

I don't know if he will survive this or not, but the way I see it...I don't think he would have survived anymore medicating either...so if I was going to try this I wanted to do it when he was still fairly strong. I had been feeding him up good to try and keep him in condition during this whole process and also changing his water every day....adding the correct amount of meds to it each time. I'll let you all know how it turns out."

Day Two

"I checked him first thing this morning. He is back to his old self..(a bit short in the fin ) his color is looking good now. Only thing is, I see what looks like the start of some more finrot on his dorsel fin now.....dang! I knew I should have trimmed that one too, just to be safe...but, oh well. I'll leave it alone for now and see how it goes. I plan on changing his water every day and putting nothing but extra salt in it. Enough meds for this guy. Maybe the constant clean water will cause it to just...go away...lol..(always the optimist!)"


Day Three

"Teal seems to be doing rather well. I ended up trimming his dorsel fin too but I didn't take him out of his bowl to do it. Just gently cupped my hand around him and when I saw an opportunity...I snipped. I figure that was less stressful than taking him out of the water and having him flop around on the table till I could get a grip on him. Anyway, it worked.

I see no signs of fin rot at this time. I am keeping his bowl VERY clean. I transfer him between two bowls so that I can wipe out the one I take him out of. After cleaning the bowl I put fresh clean water with extra salt and bettafix in it, then float it in the tank so that it's ready for the next morning. I try to remember to feed him before changing his bowl...just to keep food stuff out of there, but I don't always. I do make sure to take out any cruds that show up.

Well, so far so good. It's hard to get a really good look at the tips of his fins as he is always moving around..but it looks like there may be some new growth starting already."


After a Week

"Teal's fins are looking Great! They are beginning to heal very well and there is no sign of finrot at all!

I'll just keep up the clean water each day with bettafix and extra salt..at least until the bettafix cycle is done. I may just keep him in that bowl and clean his water every day until his fins grow back completely..depends on how things look."


How to be sure it is fin rot

"A good indication is if the fin is slowly, or quickly disintegrating..or you see that the tail keeps getting shorter and shorter in that one spot where you notice the red or dark coloring.

They don't usually act sick, at least mine don't. Their tails just rot away....though if left untreated it will eventually get to their bodies and kill them."

Jill again - to see a picture of Teal after the surgery, click on the top right link, top of the page, labeled as post-surgery. Poor cutie! Once again, let me remind everyone that this technique is NOT for beginners - YOU COULD KILL YOUR FISH, and there are easier ways to handle fin rot. My article on Clean Water is the Best Medicine (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art22994.asp) is a great starting point. However, this surgery can be beneficial. I would advise joining the Bella Fish Forum (http://www.bellaonline.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=9&submit=Go) and discussing your options with the other members, before you go for the scissors!

My advice on the best guide to a happy healthy betta - http://rcm-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/rcm/120x240.gif

[babychristie]

I found this, I hope that it can help you fix that baby up, Keep us posted on what happens!!

[gingerinaustin]

Please do not attempt this kind of treatment unless you have steady hands and are an experienced betta owner.

I don't think I'm up to this. :( Thanks for trying to help.

[jm1212]

be careful when you switch between so many meds. there is no telling how the fish is going to react with them att in the water and how the meds will effect each other. treatment is also pretty stressful in itself, and mixing meds is even worse.

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks, Jon. I haven't mixed any meds: been doing them one at a time. Luckily, he shows zero signs of illness except for his disappearing fins. He is doing his happy dance and eating like a piggy. When do I throw in the towel, give up on the idea of a show-quality betta and pretend he's a crowntail? lol I'm afraid if I give in, the rot will eventually progress to his body. I'd like to see at least a bit of regrowth before I stop the meds. Do I continue the tetracycline or try something else--and what else? Order kanamycin online? Try the triple sulfa I can get at the LFS down the street? ??? ??? ?????

[Star_Rider]

if the damage is from ammonia burns(and there is a good chance given the fish was in transport 3 days)
the meds won't stop it..the ammonia breaks down the tissue..it takes time for the affects to show(usually within a week of acclimating the fish) it is dead tissue so it basically falls off..the difference is no noticable fungus..dis coloration then the fins wither away the boney part of the fin is un affected..the fins will grow back..keep the water pristine..adding meds will inhibit fungal(secondary infection)
use broad spectrum like maracyn..it can take several weeks to heal even months.

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks star_rider. As you can see from the first pic I posted, the fin rot has definitely affected the "boney" parts of his caudal fin. From what I've read and images I've googled, severe ammonia burns leave blackened spots or edges, and I don't see anything like that on my betta. I'm keeping the water quality pristine as always. Thanks for trying to help.

[gingerinaustin]

Eager to find answers, I e-mailed the breeder and transhipper last night, and both responded quickly. The transhipper said she had her best luck with amoxicillin and/or colloidal silver, but warned fin rot is hard to cure (no duh!). She also mentioned the 'surgical' method, but the fin rot is going to have to get a lot worse before I get that desperate.

The breeder recommended getting some almond leaf to put in the tank to help with healing. I hadn't read anything about in all my Internet research on fin rot in bettas, but once I googled "almond leaf betta", I found a lot of sites.

Almond leaf is a natural way to lower pH (like putting driftwood in a tank); the breeder says bettas prefer more acidic water. The almond leaves release tannins, lignins, humic and fulvic acids and other compounds which have antibacterial, antifungal and even antiparasitic qualities. Research (http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=678_25) has found almond leaf eradicates Trichodina and ectoparasites and inhibits Aeromonas in fish. These leaves are widely used (http://www.aqualandpetsplus.com/Betta,%20Indian%20Almond%20Leaves.htm) among breeders and fish keepers in Asia.

I found both whole leaves (http://www.franksaquarium.com/almond.htm) and an extract (http://www.bluebettausa.com/almondleafextract.htm). Both products are cheap: $5. What the hell--it can't hurt and it might help; in any event, it's probably a better option than Melafix. I ordered some of both products.

Hope this information helps someone with a similar situation (like, anyone that's ever owned a betta).

[babychristie]

I wish you the best of Luck on your betta!!!!

[gingerinaustin]

Thanks, baby_christie! I would feel better if I saw a little regrowth after three courses of different antibiotics + salt... any regrowth whatsover...but no. Guess I will have to wait for the "magic" almond leaf to arrive that will solve everything, lol!

[NinjaPirate]

I've had a similar strain of fin rot that absolutely refused to respond to treatment. It's becoming a common problem. If crystal clear water doesn't clear it up, you almost always have to "operate" to stop the progress.

Two meds I might try are Amoxicillin (Fish Mox from Thomas Labs) or Kanamycin (KanaPlex by Seachem) as they tend to be stronger acting AB meds.

[gingerinaustin]

Hey NinjaPirate--noo, don't make me get out the scalpel! :eek3:

Kanamycin is on its way as we speak--if that doesn't work, I guess it's Fish Mox (which would be Antibiotic #5!). At some point, I'm going to have to stop the meds--at this rate, if he comes down with some other ailment, he's going to be immune to all known antibiotics. I just don't know when to stop--when I see some regrowth, then I guess I'll stop...or if he fails to improve after Kanamycin and Amoxicillin...then again, I've read about bettas with fin rot getting better then relapsing. UGH! I can't help but think, for all this trouble, I could have stuck with a $3.95 PetSmart betta vs. a $25 Aquabid betta. I expect those guys to have intractable fin rot--not breeder/show quality bettas from Thailand. :mad2:

The good news, I guess, is that all my other fish in my other 2 tanks are doing spectacularly. I can't help but think that means, it's not me, it's the bacteria.

I know one thing--if I have to resort to playing "Ginger in Austin, Betta Surgeon", I'm going to have to do it when Red isn't home. Between the three fish tanks in 2 1/2 months, 4 antibiotics, water changes every 2-3 days and Indian almond leaf extracts off the Internet, he's just about ready to ship me off to the Funny Farm.

[babychristie]

don't feel bad, i have gone fish crazy my self, in a month i bought a 10g tank and then a 2.5G tank. I want the 10g because i wanted different types of fish because my daughter loves then(well I should say i do) Then I saw this pretty betta the other day and i had to have it!!! Oh well they are my babys unitl I can have on of my own again!! But if it was up to me i would have the biggest tank that i could have,LOL but i HOPE the little guy is doing better now.