I've got a sad problem I could use some help with.

[teapod]

My neighbor has purchased a 20 gallon, 2.5ft X 2.5ft, 3 level fountain for the porch (outdoor, no roof) she and I share. She put 7 goldfish in immediately and they all died, of course, but they also fouled the water. She asked my advice, I told her to buy filters. She came home with a UV filter and a 12 gallon submersible filter. And 9 more fish.
Yesterday I went out with my test kits (I have a 55g, heavily planted tank and a 10g, slate and stone tank - 17 fish between the two) to see how bad these levels were - Ammonia was higher than 4ppm, Ph was 7.8 (and later rose to 8.0), nitrItes were at 2ppm, NitrAtes were at 40, GH was at 13 and KH was at 7. I did a 60% water change and constructed a makeshift filter with the 3 levels of the fountain - charcoal at the top, biomax and ammonia absorbing stones on the second level, and a Clearmax pouch and a water softening pillow on the bottom level. Visibly, there was a difference overnight. Chemically, it took 36 hours for the levels to come down, though they are still critical.

Here is the problem. When I spoke with her last night to tell her how bad this is for the fish, she did not care much. She just wants fish swimming in a fountain on her porch. Lots of fish. She is not going to lower the number of fish in the pond - if they die, she will replace them. She has agreed to getting a bigger filter but that still will not accommodate the number of fish she is going to want to keep, especially since they are goldfish (filthy!)

My question -- I need methods I have not yet thought of to help these fish. Any recommendations for filters (sizes, brands, media) or (last resort) chemicals that can be added regularly to help these fish be happy will be much appreciated.

[Nolapete]

I'd honestly just wash my hands of it since she's obviously going to do whatever she wants. She's only going to succeed in making you dislike her because of her cruel treatment of the fish and ignoring your attempts to instruct her.

[teapod]

:(

That is what I was afraid you would say.

[Blueiz]

The first course of action I would take is educating her on cycling the pond.. And instead of telling her what she is doing wrong..go about it in a way that makes her think things are her ideas... Reverse phsychology if you will..

Blue

[Nolapete]

Unfortunately, it seems that was already attempted. Some people are just hardheaded. Maybe once she kills enough fish, she'll ask for help.

[teapod]

Yeah, her eyes glazed over when I started talking about the cycling process.
She is not interested in the science or the skill (or the responsibility) of fish/aquatic plant keeping - she just wants fish swimming on the porch.
I am pretty good at the science and skill - so I was hoping there was some way I could accommodate the fish comfortably.
Thanks for the responses. I appreciate it.

[Squawkbert]

For frequent water changes... redirect a downspout into some portion of the fountain (Really, I have no idea how that could have happened:eek:)?

and now, the more entertaining suggestions:

Tell her that the fountain was not designed for fish and that it was constructed with all sorts of resins and glues that are highly toxic? :evil_lol:

Arrange the development of a mysterious leak in the base of the fountain? :FIREdevil:

Swipe her rent checks from the outgoing mail and shred them? :nutkick:

[teapod]

Tell her that the fountain was not designed for fish and that it was constructed with all sorts of resins and glues that are highly toxic?

I told her that from the get-go. Worse? She could not see the fish enough against the stone colored bottom of the fountain, so she dumped all the water out and painted the inside with light blue pool paint.:headshake2:

That was when the last of the first batch died.

I don't want to damage her property or harm her in any way. I just want to help the fish any way I can.

[sproett]

Why don't you offer to take care of the fish and fountain if she supplies the needed equipment? You could trade the goldfish in for orange platies, she probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference! Or you could get the fish out every night until she tires of paying for new ones. Tell her those darn racoons are notorious for eating pond fish. Haha...

[Nolapete]

You could be the "fish burglar" and steal the fish every time she puts new ones in. Rescue them and give them a good home.

[teapod]

Why don't you offer to take care of the fish and fountain if she supplies the needed equipment?

That is precisely what is going to happen.

"fish burglar"

I considered that too, but I have not got a tank set up for them (and it would need to be a big one to accommodate her replacing the fish I take). I also have an ethical problem with stealing her fish even though it is to avoid the larger ethical problem of her mistreating the fish. I would rather take responsibility for the fish.

This brings me to another question though -- why is it 1 inch of fish per 10 gallons outside but if I bring them in, it is one inch of fish per 1 gallon? What is the reasoning behind these general rules?

[Squawkbert]

There is no reasoning behind either rule. They're both junk.

Hide the fishy corpses around her half of the lot. The smell will discourage her.

[teapod]

If they are both junk, then I am going to do my best to take care of the fish she puts out there.

Thanks, all - for entertaining my concerns.

[judgemax]

you could always buy an oscar and put in her fountain....:lipssealedsmilie:

[jm1212]

how about birds? little herons and eagrets are known to snap at koi

dont forget the falcons :D

[teapod]

You guys are terrible! :evil_lol:

While testing the water this morning (better readings again, but still unhealthy - this is the spikiest nitrIte spike I have ever seen) my neighbor came out for a chat about the fountain. It ended in her saying to do what I have to do and give her the receipts. Perfect!

There is now a Fluval pumping the water about 13 times an hour, ammonia absorbing packets and charcoal pouches within. I still have an extra charcoal pouch in the top layer of the fountain, a biomax pouch on the second level and a clearmax pouch on the third.
The over-bearing water sprite from my 55g is giving up some clippings to help with excess waste.

I am a little worried that I am going to inhibit or slow any sort of cycle from completing. If anyone has any information or suggestions about that concern, please speak up.

And again, thanks for reading/entertaining/keeping things light!

[Reddog80p]

I would take a sledge hammer to the fountain. :wall: :angryfire: :wall: :angryfire: :wall: :mad2:

[GoldLenny]

There is no way the little fountain reservoir will be able to handle the bioload of the goldfish as they grow. Tell her to get some zebra danio's or WCMM's or other minnow type fish.

You should add some filter media from your healthy tank to her filter which will cycle her filter much quicker and then you would just need to do PWC's to control the nitrate levels. Add a pinch of salt to keep the nitrite poisoning from becoming toxic to the fish. A teaspoon of salt in 400G will protect from 2ppm of nitrites so you only need a pinch in a 20G tank.

[guppyguppyfish]

i would get some other type of fish once this batch dies.

[feemia]

Would she be fooled if you put in some dwarf platies?

[marine_geek]

if she doesn't care about the morality maybe she will care about the $$$ tell her how much money she would be saving if she stocked properly

[OhNo123]

i think you should put a shark into the tank.

[silentskream]

i think the dwarf platys is a great idea!

switch out the goldfish for them.. they're still brightly colored, but they're MUCH easier on the bioload and they stay teeny!

[wataugachicken]

i think at this point you need to just wait and see. it doesn't sound like she cares at all, or will change her point of view. i don't know if she is your friend as well as your neighbor, or how important it is that you stay on good terms. it also depends on your own behavior and if your fish tanks affect her, BUT. . . one thing you can do is make a note of when the fish die. dead fish are gross. they smell, attract bugs, can harbor diseases, and are generally really gross to have out on your porch. if she does not remove dead fish right away, and it is affecting YOUR quality of life due to the above reasons, you could appeal to your building manager (or whoever is in charge) that she get rid of the fountain because she does not take care of it and you don't want to have dead fish stinking up the place and attracting flies.

[Dwarf Puffers]

i think at this point you need to just wait and see. it doesn't sound like she cares at all, or will change her point of view. i don't know if she is your friend as well as your neighbor, or how important it is that you stay on good terms. it also depends on your own behavior and if your fish tanks affect her, BUT. . . one thing you can do is make a note of when the fish die. dead fish are gross. they smell, attract bugs, can harbor diseases, and are generally really gross to have out on your porch. if she does not remove dead fish right away, and it is affecting YOUR quality of life due to the above reasons, you could appeal to your building manager (or whoever is in charge) that she get rid of the fountain because she does not take care of it and you don't want to have dead fish stinking up the place and attracting flies.

SWEET IDEA!!

Or if that doesn't work, considering she put poison in there, you can keep removing the fish and blaming the birds and raccoons, and suggest not having any after the bill rises. Face it, torturing innocent creatures is more ethical than saving their lives (even if that has a small ethical boundry called theft).

[cichlidcichlid]

some people do not deserve the right to own fish!

[bluekrissyspike]

i'd beat her up and steal the fountain....lol....you can keep it in your house with plants growing in it... http://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/emoticons/00020069.gif (http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&ref=10)

[mellowvision]

I'd get a sticker for the front door that says "You are a murderer" and let her read it every time she comes home.