Movin' on up (20g to 75g)

[Jhereg10]

Hi all!

I'm not exactly a newbie (have had a 20L for several years) but in a sense my success with it has been more dumb luck and caution than actually knowing what I'm doing.

Current tank:

20L with UG Filter/Powerhead, heavily planted with Java Fern and Anubias, one Rosy Barb (old timer), 4 ghost shrimp (newcomers) and two plecostomus (newcomers).

The plants are the originals (or offshoots of the original plants) I've had for probably a decade. I even managed to keep the aquarium stable during a move (drive) from New Orleans to Houston (the barb also survived this) a year ago. That's another story I'd be willing to relate later.

I have had a serious algae problem (not freefloating, the coating kind) but the pleco's have been making short work of this.

New tank (current status, empty in my living room with unopened boxes of goodies)

75G w/ stand, hood w/ single 48" fluorescent bulb. Cascade 1000 canister filter, and 25 lbs of bottom material (actually filter media for swimming pools, about 1mm(?) size more or less.

Frankly, when I first found this forum I was horrified at how many things I've been doing wrong all these years. The only reason I haven't had a watery meltdown is probably due to the fact that I always maintained a heavily planted aquarium and had a seriously understocked aquarium with hardy species. I didn't vacuum often enough, didn't change water often enough, probably overfed, used a UG with plants, and never tested anything besides pH and maybe once every so often ammonia (always came up zero...go figure).

Now I have learned about the drawbacks of UGs w/ plants (dunno how I pulled that off...I had to prune mine back fairly often), realize the importance of regular testing of nitrates and nitrites, water hardness issues, etc. Basically, I figure that my aquarium was one or two mistakes away from disaster for many years.

I'm now looking for feedback on setting up this one. My plan is:

Set up 75g in place, with canister filter and gravel. Fill with treated tap water and add other ornamentation. Transfer some bed material and plants from current aquarium and allow to cycle for ??? weeks per cycling tips on these forums. Then over several days transfer the stock over starting with the Shrimp and finishing with the Barb. Later, adding schooling fish (I'm big on smaller, more numerous populations as opposed to a few larger fish).

Questions: Is the canister filter sufficient or do I need another type? I'm planning on getting a "Python". How do I do good gravel vacs without disturbing the plants too much? Recommendations on heating methods? Should I set up a custom jet system I've seen described elsewhere (powerhead with customized filter on intake discharges to undergravel tubing with jet exits in various locations....supposedly helps keep gravel bed from accumulating debris). Is there any other equipment that is a must have?

Any other suggestions for aesthetics considering I'm leaning toward a heavily planted, community aquarium with smaller, schooling fish?

Sorry I'm kinda dumping this all out at once. Nothing worse than a "born again" aquarist, eh?

-David Collison

[TomFromStLouis]

About 3 months ago I was roughly where you are now - not counting a 25 year interval between the last tank and this one (also a 75g).

You should be able to jump start your biological colonies with gravel or something from your old tank. If you plant heavily right away, you probably could move your current residents in quickly - as you know plants use ammonia and make the cycle much less dramatic. I had almost no biological jump start, planted heavily and added fish weekly with no detectable spikes.

The real challenge here is lighting and its effects. The higher the light wattage, the more kinds of plants and faster the growth AND the more issues like algae and ferts and CO2. There is a learning curve here that I am just beginning to get comfortable with. Visit the Plant Forum and read posts by Plantbrain for more. Consider Flourite for the substrate. I use about 40 flourite and 60 gravel.

Tropica has a nice site for reviewing plant options. As for aesthetics, since we are thinking so much alike I will venture this: I use mostly small-leaved plants. I find the huge amazon swords and other big leaved plants too big for even a 75g, especially with smaller fish. Take a look at the Aquatic Gardeners' site's contest tanks and Amano books for inspiration.

[TomFromStLouis]

I forgot about vacuuming with a python. I just sort of vibrate/shake the tube right above the gravel and any loose detritus begins floating and gets sucked up.

[Jhereg10]

Thanky kindly Tom. Will mosey on over to the Plant forum.

DC

[TKOS]

If you just move over soem decorations and plants from the old tank and let them sit for any period of time, most likely the good bacteria will die off. They need a source of food to keep going which is why people pour ammonia into new tanks. So you will either need to seed the tank with ammonia to build up bacteria levels (as per cycling instructions already written down on the forum) or else start moving some fish over. I don't know how big the plecos are but that seems like avery small amount of fish in a 75 gallon so you should be able to bring them and all the gravel and plants and get things started quickly. Just keep testing for ammonia spikes and do some frequent water changes for the first while and things should be okay. And bring their water too as it will help them all adjust better.

I wouldn't start with the shrimp though as things like shrimp and snails tend to be very less hardy and sudden changes can easily kill them.

[Jhereg10]

Thanks TKOS.

Yeah, I'm starting to get a better grip on the "fundamental interconnectedness of all things" (for those of you who have never read Douglas Adams Dirk Gently books, that got a chuckle from those who have).

So a good idea would be:

A. Move plants and some bed material over and seed with ammonia to get cycle going. Do standard cycling like this (but time period should be much shorter than with all virgin material)

or

B. Transfer stock to a temp bowl, transfer all remaining gravel, water, and plants to new tank. Add some of the gravel from old tank to filter canister (??? I've also read about putting it in a mesh bag and hanging in front of filter inlet) to start bio process. After ??? hours add fish to maintain "food stream" for bacteria. Monitor ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates daily (??) and do water changes for a couple of days. After it's somewhat stabilized, add shrimp (?).

Then after either of those, continue monitoring per normal maintenance (weekly testing and water changes).

Correct?

Thx.

[TKOS]

I can't speak for everyone but I have done the second option with a lot of success. Just make sure to match temperature and pH as close as possible and it will be like doing a big water change. You should be able to move the shrimp over as well if you bring lots of beneficial bacteria from the old tank. hat I do it actually run the old filter for the first week along with the new one and that seems to get things moving. Add some gravel in a mesh bag and things will go nicely. Just make sure to add new fish slowly and you are probably best off waiting a least a week or 2 before adding anything new. The stress of a move would probably not set well if you also added new fish.

Also you might want to try and keep the 20 gallon going for awhile as it will make a great place to add you new fish to so you can check them for the first week and make sure they don't bring any illnesses with them.

I'd also leave the lights off after a stressful big move like that while the old fishes acclimate to the new tank.

Hope this isn't too much stuff. Good luck.

[demon_surfer]

with just the tiger barb and the plecos there probably wont be much of an ammonia spike depending on the size of the pleco's. At the moment most people are recommending the fishless cycle, which you said you have read up about. This can take about 2-3 weeks on a tank of the size you are talking about ( i recently did it in a 55 ) and means that you can immediatly move in just about all the fish you want when its done. so you could put in your old barb with a whole bunch of new buddies ;) ive read they do like to shoal. It is a very simple process, just buy some pure (make absolute sure its pure) ammonia and a pipette with ml measurements marked on it. i at first used a test tube test to check the ammonia but these are a pain in the rear when you ahve to check everyda so grab either the dip stick or in tank ammonia tests. If you are in no hurry i really recommend doing this because it is kinda to the fish (though with so few you probably wont have a problem) plus you can add more at once Which i LOVE doing hehe. The plants can be in the tank for a fishless cycle too.

just remeber if you do it fishless have lots of plants and introduce the fish just a few at a time to gradually build up the ammonia. :)
and good luck!

[Jhereg10]

Many thanks for the guidance.

The only other pressing question (before I begin setup) is regarding the benefits of a jet setup at the bottom of the aquarium.

I have read that using a powerhead with a sponge sleeve on the intake and discharging into a "manifold" under the gravel (with jets at various locations) is good for setting up good circulation and also for keeping the bottom free of debris.

If I go this route, I'll obviously want to do so before setting up the gravel. Is this a recommended practice? I still need to review my books on the fish I have/am planning on to look at compatibility with moving water (already a bit of a quandery there...plecos like currents more than barbs I believe).

Thanks!

[demon_surfer]

what you are talking about is called a reverse under gravel filter, all it does is push the waste up and away from the gravel. i have never personally tried it, but i have read/heard from people that say they are very useful and help to keep the gravel clean because not as much waste sits on the gravel. That being said it is not neccesary to aquarium life, it is really up too you whether you want to try it out or not.

plus not all plecos like fast currents, only some speices doo, some are from still/ slow water areas

hope this helps!

[Jhereg10]

Actually no, I wasn't trying to describe a RUGF (though my description was vague enough to sound like that too...)

See this link for what I stumbled on and was referring to.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

Thx!

[OrionGirl]

The jet system will work, and will help keep the solid wastes off the substrate, where the canister filter can easily get them out of the water column. Certainly not a requirement, and there will still be areas (around plants and decorations) where the solids will pile up--of course, then you just siphon them from a few place, instead of all over.

And for what it's worth--the whole fish keeping hobby has changed drastically in the last 15 years. Without belonging to a club, spending a lot of time online or in libraries, there isn't anyway to know about all the changes. Even the better hobbyist magazines are slow to spread innovations and changes. Very few LFS are willing to share some of the newer techniques, if they even know about them, IME.

[Jhereg10]

And for what it's worth--the whole fish keeping hobby has changed drastically in the last 15 years. Without belonging to a club, spending a lot of time online or in libraries, there isn't anyway to know about all the changes. Even the better hobbyist magazines are slow to spread innovations and changes.

Yeah, I'm realizing that very quickly. Thanks for the input! I'll decide today whether I want to invest the time in setting up a jet system.

Right now, I'm looking into substrates. Contacting my lfs looking into flourite and laterite for my lower substrate level (plan on having heavily planted aquarium).

[OrionGirl]

There's a product sold at Home Depot--can't think of the name right now, but it's an aquatic potting soil for potted pond plants. It is safe with fish. I've used it with great success in smaller systems, and it's cheaper than the laterite and flourite at my LFS. It's a larger gravel, reddish color. VERY dusty, but seems to really help. I've used it in 3 systems now, all low light/no CO2, with about an inch of this on the bottom and then sand on top. All the plants (crypts, lillies, anachris, moneywort, swords, and aluminum plant (the tops are exposed, potted under water) have really done well--the crypts kick out new leaves every day.

[TomFromStLouis]

I am not sure I understand this whole jet concept. By shooting a jet across the substrate, I can understand that no detritus will settle in front of the jet, but then where does it go? If using a sponge on the intake, does this serve as the entire tank's filter? After imagining a minimal setup from the filterless thread, I am thinking this could go one step further and lower maintenance even more. But first I need to know how this works

How would it work in a planted tank with a ground cover? In a cichlid tank like the writer shows, are the solids supposedly in the water until they find some other filter?

[OrionGirl]

These systems work in conjunction with a mechanical filter (and likely biological as well). The jets are not the filter, they are more in line with power heads. It's similar to a RUGF, in that solids don't settle all over, but you still want some kind of mechanical filter to pull the solids out of the water column. I suppose you could setup sponges on the intakes, but it would be hard to hide in anything but a heavily planted tank.

[Jhereg10]

I've gotten the substrate down and major aquascaping materials in. Half full of treated water, filter operating. Placed about a half-cup of gravel from old tank in one of the canister filter baskets.

Substrate is two layers (as the pics will show). Bottom is 1.5", 50% Aquatic Potting Soil (laterite-like material), 25% 1-2mm gravel, 25% sand. Top level is 1.5", almost all 1-2mm gravel (actually pool filter media).

Decided not to go with the jets. Maybe next time.

Next step, transferring plants from old aquarium to the new one and buying additional plants. Then will complete filling and start cycling in earnest.

Posting pictures in a bit if you're curious.

[Jhereg10]

Here are the initial pics of my setup.

Warning, Pics are pretty big. I'll tone them down in size some a bit later.

http://www.thirdpartyadvocate.org/aquarium.htm

[demon_surfer]

its looking great J!

sorry about this missunderstanding

gl on the tank:)

[Jhereg10]

Well, I've got some more pictures posted and am keeping a sort of online diary of the aquarium.

The good news is, I planted the tank on the 5th, and they've really taken off. The fish and snails are active, curious, and act healthier than I've ever seen them. Water quality tests out good.

The bad news is, I've realized my stock lighting setup is woefully underpowered. The 48" hood that came with the tank is only 40 Watts!!! My understanding is you need at least 1-1.5 Watts per gallon bare minimum. Correct? I've supplemented with my 24" hood from the old tank, which also lets me cycle lighting for a dawn/dusk effect which the nocturnals seem to absolutely love. Suggestions?

Something that I'm not sure I should be concerned about is that the water went from cloudy-white just after filling (shown in pics on webpage), to a very faint green/clear, and now it is faintly tea-colored. Smell is fine, and ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/pH test out fine. Could this be tannins from the wood and should I be concerned? The LFS assured me the wood was safe and prepped for freshwater use.

For more gory details and pictures, stop by my page!

http://www.thirdpartyadvocate.org/aquarium.htm

[OrionGirl]

Tea stained water is very typical with almost all driftwoods. It is perfectly safe, and indeed preferred by many fish (tetras in particular), and will usually lower your pH slightly. If you don't like the coloration, carbon in your filter for 1-2 days will usually pull it out, but it really doesn't hurt anything to leave it in place. Many people strive heartily to get that color!

Low light setups can work fine, but will limit the plants you can grow well. Anubias, java fern/moss, and african ferns will all trhive in low light tanks, as will many crypts. If you want to expand to other plants, rather than cramming strip light on, look into getting higher output lights--VHO and power compacts are popular, and you can get conversion kits. Check hellolights.com for many options and good prices.

[Jhereg10]

Thanks much OG!

BTW, the honeywort has not reached the surface of the tank and is spreading out. I'm measuring its growth in inches (!) per day. Ditto the Frill plant. Simply amazing.

Fun when the 40Watt goes out, leaving only the 18Watt. It's like a slumber party in there. The Plecos come out, flaring their fins, the snail (I think it's an apple snail) starts grooving, the two smaller snails come out, and I finally saw all four shrimp at once. Everyone cruising the open bottom scrounging for tidbits. Meanwhile, the Rosy Barb stalks errant floating bits in the half-light.

It's a kick I tell you.

I've been cruising, looking for lights. Hellolights.com seems to have good price. For full kits, if I go with the recommended 1.5-2.5 Watts per gallon, I'd need around 150Watts.

Could go with 48" 2x65W Coralife Aqualight hood w/ 50/50 -Straight Pin $119.95. That would give me 130Watts, which is a sight better than the 40W+18W rig-up I'm using now.

I'm a little iffy on retrofit kits, mostly because I'm not sure there's any clearance under the weenie single-tube hood that came with the tank for two bulbs.

Of course, the other option would be to build a custom hood and put kit for a minimum of lighting in it now, and add to the fixtures/ballast as time went on. Unfortunately, I locked my eyes on the Ice Cap ballast kits with dimmers(!) which sounded REALLY groovy. $164.95 But I'd have to buy more bits and build a mount for that, so the price would go up from that.

<sigh>.

Hmm..maybe I should be posting these in a different forum now?

[OrionGirl]

If you decide to build your own hood (highly recommended for those who have the ability and facility), check out the DIY forum. There may very well be plans that you could modify to fit your tank, and between Slip and Corax, you'll have lots of help.

Glad the tank is looking healthy and happy!