Quick PH question

[Wat2Go]

My tap water has a PH of 6.4. My fully cycled tanks run between 7.2 and more than 7.6 (test only measures till 7.6, I will buy a high PH test tomorrow to see how high it really is).

What makes it go up so high?

Alls tanks have live plants, one has driftwood and for stocking see sig.

L.

[jpappy789]

If the water is aerated, the excess co2 will be driven off raising the pH. But I don't think that would raise yours that much. Do you have any limestone in the tank?

Also, your tank has a large variability in pH levels. I think a difference of .5 is okay when changing water. Any higher and you are adding stress to your fish. If yours changes on a daily basis I would also pick up a KH test kit. The higher the KH, the more stable the pH, and the happier the fish!

[davexstumpe]

driftwood could lower pH, as well as the ammount of co2 could alter it aswell(already stated)

whats your substrate?

[mellowvision]

I'm having this same problem and haven't really had anyone give me much insight. much like jpappy's post above, people seem to ignore what you actually wrote, and give the standard co2 answer. frankly, if the co2 dissapation was the issue, it wouldn't raise the ph any higher than the ph originally was before you introduced co2. I got a hardness kit and found that I have hard water.. but I knew that before I got the kit, as i live in a city with notoriously hard water. I'm not personally having a problem with stability, the water is always off the charts with high ph... the problem is finding out what actually is raising the ph of the water once it gets in the tank.

the only suggestion anyone has given me that makes sense is that the eco-complete substrate is raising it.

[jpappy789]

The problem with water chemistry is that there are a lot of variables that come into play. Minerals and all that jazz. It's hard to give a striaght answer without knowing exactly whats in the water. I didn't think that the co2 answer is right in this situation. Seems like something else is raising the pH

[lucid_boy]

ok so look at my PH problem.
55gal tank water is 9 days old, and have 5 sunset platies as starter fish.
I put water directly from tap (dechlorinated 1st of course)
the water is very hard (350-400 ppm hardness)
I tested water today and the nitrite, nitrate levels are very low.
the hardness is 350-375 ppm, the kh was right where it was supposed to be, (sorry I do not remember the #, just the color matched) and finally my PH was 8.2
(and that is not anywhere close to the 7.0 - 7.2 I am looking for)
anyway, I have a UGF, and a emp 400 bio wheel, and that is all for now.
I know that I am so new to the cycle that the PH will drop a little, but I am not sure how long or by how much?
I was going to add RO water to the tank when I do the next PWC, would this be advisable, and will it help with the PH being to high?
thanks

[yourchoice]

I'm having this same problem and haven't really had anyone give me much insight. much like jpappy's post above, people seem to ignore what you actually wrote, and give the standard co2 answer. frankly, if the co2 dissapation was the issue, it wouldn't raise the ph any higher than the ph originally was before you introduced co2. I got a hardness kit and found that I have hard water.. but I knew that before I got the kit, as i live in a city with notoriously hard water. I'm not personally having a problem with stability, the water is always off the charts with high ph... the problem is finding out what actually is raising the ph of the water once it gets in the tank.

the only suggestion anyone has given me that makes sense is that the eco-complete substrate is raising it.

Looks like you have big rocks the tanks.Limestone is very common or anything with calcium will drive the Ph up.

[Draal5]

ok so look at my PH problem.
55gal tank water is 9 days old, and have 5 sunset platies as starter fish.
I put water directly from tap (dechlorinated 1st of course)
the water is very hard (350-400 ppm hardness)
I tested water today and the nitrite, nitrate levels are very low.
the hardness is 350-375 ppm, the kh was right where it was supposed to be, (sorry I do not remember the #, just the color matched) and finally my PH was 8.2
(and that is not anywhere close to the 7.0 - 7.2 I am looking for)
anyway, I have a UGF, and a emp 400 bio wheel, and that is all for now.
I know that I am so new to the cycle that the PH will drop a little, but I am not sure how long or by how much?
I was going to add RO water to the tank when I do the next PWC, would this be advisable, and will it help with the PH being to high?
thanks

For you to be able to lower the Ph in your tank you will need RO water your water is just to buffered.
The other thing is do not use strips to test your water get any of the liquid test kits. The test strips are very inaccurate.

[silentskream]

i'd recommend RO water in all of these cases.

unfortunately tap water just has too much junk in it.

[jpappy789]

Make sure you add some trace elements back. RO water has nothin in it.

[TKOS]

Measure your pH straight from the tap and then measure untreated water that was left in a shallow dish over night. See if the pH raises by itself before anything is added or it is added to the tank.

[Wat2Go]

I will do what TKOS suggested.

I have standard gravel in the tanks, only one tank has a piece of limestone in it, the rest has plastic decorations, and a few plastic but mostly live plants. Everything in the tank comes from fish stores (so should be tank safe, I am not sure where the limestone comes from, it was used in fish tanks for 25 years, so should be ok).

It is just that the tap water has such low PH compared to the tanks, which makes me think it is stressful for the fish to do the 50% water changes I do once a week. Also, haven't tested the hardness of the water, but it is commonly said that we have "rather soft" water in our neighborhood.

Although... I just tested the water in the 55 gallon immediately after doing a 40% waterchange, but it is still 7.6 (or higher, as my test only goes to 7.6) so I am guessing maybe not too stressful. The PH in the tanks is stable at 7.4 to 7.6 (or higher) and I have been told that the PH itself isn't so much the issue, but keeping it stable is. I have no intention of adding any buffers, unless someone here tells me I really should consider it (as I think keeping PH stable with buffers is going to be hard, even if I try my best).

And call me stupid (or not) but I do not really understand the co2 story. Tanks are all aerated with the filter, there are no airstones in any of them and I am not aware of me "doing" anything with co2 (unless the plants "do" something with co2, but none of the tanks are heavily planted).

What is RO water?

This all said, it wouldn't mind knowing the biological or chemical thing that is happening in these tanks to keep the PH so high!

L.

[jpappy789]

Don't bother worrying about the co2 thing. It doesn't apply to your situation.

Keeping the pH stable is usually the real challenge anyways so don't stress too much over exact numbers.

RO is reverse osmosis

[jm1212]

if the pH remains stable, there shouldnt be much of a problem unless you want to breed "soft" water fish

[lucid_boy]

ok so I did a PWC of only 5 gallons of Reverse Osmosis (RO) water
(I get it from a water vending machine outside a local grocery store)
I did this yesterday, I haven't tested PH since last time and it was at 8.2 before. KH has to do with the buffering you were speaking of correct?
and also what exactly are trace elements (minerals), and where do you get them from?
thanks for the input

ps. I will post results from test when I get them.
(I am going to try an get the API master test kit $31.99 at LFS, good idea?)

[severum mama]

Wat2Go- if you notice that the pH changes a lot when you leave the water sitting out overnight vs. testing straight out of the tap, you'll probably have to set your replacement water out overnight for water changes so the fish don't get too stressed by changes in pH.

[hitman12131976]

ok so I did a PWC of only 5 gallons of Reverse Osmosis (RO) water (I get it from a water vending machine outside a local grocery store) I did this yesterday, I haven't tested PH since last time and it was at 8.2 before. KH has to do with the buffering you were speaking of correct? and also what exactly are trace elements (minerals), and where do you get them from? thanks for the input

When I use to use RO water (don't anymore as I had more fish deaths with RO than with tap 6:1), I use to add a 2:1 ratio of tap : RO water. That way I can replenish some of the minerals in the water with the tap water and also help lower the pH by adding the RO water. Worked nicely for a while. Then I said, "To hell with it, they'll adapt to a 7.8 pH." The fish did.

[lucid_boy]

well it is a little tedious with me carring 6 1-gallon jugs to the store and back but what can I say, I kinda like doing it now.
good idea on mixing the RO, and TAP water.
is that the only way to add the alleged trace minerals???

[Aphotic Phoenix]

From what I understood...the pH change due to CO2 didn't really have the same kind of affect on fish that "true" (i.e. chemical causes) of pH do?

[hitman12131976]

well it is a little tedious with me carring 6 1-gallon jugs to the store and back but what can I say, I kinda like doing it now.
good idea on mixing the RO, and TAP water.
is that the only way to add the alleged trace minerals???

That I'm not sure of. Sorry.

[jpappy789]

No I believe there are "kits" of some sort. I don't use RO water so I don't have an exact answer. Sorry...wait here I found something...

In order to use RO water for an aquarium, you need to reconstitute it. You can do this by one of two ways:

1) By adding back in tap water to a specific ratio that you decide
2) By using water constituting products (such as Seachems) or using a mixture of baking soda and epsom salts

[gmh]

Lucid boy, I hope you tested that "RO water" that you added to your tank.
I bought some supposedly RO water from a machine outside of my LFS and it tested out the same as my tap water , which has similar rock hard properties as yours. Even if you add truly distilled water with 0 hardness you will still not get the PH down substantially unless you go with mostly distilled and just a little of the high GH tap.
I just add 25% distilled to my tap water . The water is still hard but at least it's a little softer and it's safer that way.

[lucid_boy]

well, I haven't tested yet, but I always add the declorinator/stress coat stuff anyway, just to be safe. when I took the water from my 55 gal to the LFS after just doing 5 gallons of RO water, the PH has gone from 8.2, to 8.0. (I tested 2 days after that PWC, and it is not 55 gallons of water since it is not full. more like 40-45 I think) also jpappy wherever you found this "2) By using water constituting products (such as Seachems) or using a mixture of baking soda and epsom salts"
does it give you a good idea on the epsom salt/baking soda mix you would use per 5 gallons of water? thanks again everyone it has been a big help.

[yourchoice]

As far as I understand the minerals if your tap is 6.4 you are somehow getting probably calcium(limestone for sure) or magnesium into your tank water by some other means.Either rocks or maybe mag through plant food.The LFS might test samples of your tank for these 2 .

[jpappy789]

I agree. Most people who need to add minerals are using straight RO water, usually for SW tanks. Sorry to confuse you...

[Wat2Go]

Ok. If I leave it out overnight it tests 7.0 to 7.2.
I tested again straight from the tap and this time it was 7.0 (instead of the 6.4 I got earlier (and I tested twice, just to make sure it really was 6.4...)).
I am not going to worry about it anymore.

L.

[jpappy789]

Good to hear!

[Impudence12]

For anyone considering getting the API master test kit, first and foremost, do it! But secondly get it at petsmart. First go to the petsmart page for it. (http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444177 6772&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030152&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693) Then select the master test kit from the box and it'll give you a price of 20.69. Print off that page, not all of them, just the first one, the comments are useless. Take that to a petsmart and use it for their price match thing. You'll get it for 20 bucks instead of 30. Definitley worth the paper.

[Canuck]

I'm not sure I can be of any help but I'm going to try anyway. I apologize if your insulted by the description, its unintentional, I just wanted to explain it in terms anyone could understand. So...

Ph is a result of carbonates (generally certain types of minerals) and acids in water. Think of your pH as the knot in a tug of war rope. If both teams are evenly matched then the knot is going to be at 7. If the carbonate team has more members then the knot will be on the carbonate side (say its at 8 for arguments sake). A glass of water will have a specific chemical makeup for the sake of argument say carbonates (kH is at 240 pppm) and there is no other acid besides carbonic acid, (this will be the case in most of your tanks). Carbonic acid is there because CO2 is in the air all around us and dissolves into the water. With no other forces pushing CO2 into the water (fish breathing) or pulling it out of the water (plants photosynthesizing) the carbonic acid is going to be at equilibrium at about 3ppm. With this ratio pH will be at about 8.2. You have all heard the question of what your tap water pH is after 24 hours. This is because water under pressure (just out of your tap) can have more CO2 dissolved in it then at equilibrium. So using the above example, say the water comes out with 16 ppm of CO2 (carbonic acid), kH of 240 the resulting pH will be 7.4. BUT as the water circulates in the tank the extra CO2 leaves and the pH will rise back to the equilibrium pH of 8.2. Water will always try to return to this equilibrium unless something changes the components permanently.

Now when you put the water in your tank any number of new substances can become dissolved or removed. For arguments sake lets say you have never cleaned your tank or did a water change, various biological activities such as waste rotting (and waste can be anything that isn't alive in your tank) produce acid. The acid in your tanks pulls down the pH. In the case of old tank syndrome, the processes actually eliminate the carbonates in the water resulting in extremely low pH. Now lets look at the opposite case. Baking soda has a pH of 8.4. If there were a pile of this in your tank, it would keep dissolving until the pH of the water is 8.4. With nothing but carbonic acid in the tank from CO2 this is going to mean you have around 375ppm of carbonates.

Lets look at one more case. Pure RO water has absolutely nothing in it. this means that only a little acid (the CO2 from your breath) can have a dramatic effect on the pH. Think of it as anybody who picks up the rope has no opposition.

Now why is the pH in my tank changing? If it is going down then something in your tank is producing acid, possibly reducing (consuming) the carbonates. If it is going up, then acid is either being consumed (used up) or carbonates are increasing. If carbonates are increasing there has to be something dissolving in your tank (like limestone).

I'm not sure whether this is any help. In order to diagnose the problem yourselves, look for the direction of the changes in pH. Check to make sure the amount of carbonates hasn't changed. Water excluding RO or distilled wants to be at equilibrium and will always move in that direction.

[Wat2Go]

Thanks, this actually is very clear. I appreciate the explanation a lot.

Now, I am sure I am not overfeeding, so the waste in the tank isn't doing anything to the PH, I don't have a lot of plants so I am going to assume that the daytime and the night time action of the plants will also not do anything to the water.

I know I am close to being overstocked in most tanks, could it be that the fish themselves push the PH up? By as you mention "breathing" in the water?

Again, I am not going to worry about it anymore, but I find it an interesting thing!

L.

[J double R]

wow.. lets start off with this.

DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR PH.

99% of fish live JUST fine in a wide range of pH.. contrary to what some people will say that they must have a pH close to their native waters. tap water is JUST fine in most cases, just use a good quality water conditioner like Prime and youre all set.

as long as your pH is above 6 and below 8, and STEADY, youre fine.

The necessity for RO water is also negligible, at best.. yes, it is beneficial to SW tanks.. but in FW, it's a waste of time and money unless you have a known contaminant that will kill your fish outright.

[Wat2Go]

JRR,

Not worried about the PH (I think I said that twice now), just want to understand what drives it up.

L.

[J double R]

wasnt targeted at you so much as the people who ARE worried about it. ;)

[fishlover60]

I'm having the same problem. I have a 75 gal, and my ph was usually around 8.6. needless to say my fish were dying, even cichlids. It was suggested I try RO water, and I did a 12 gallon water change with RO, but nothing changed. I read if you filter over peat it will help lower. So I added peat in my filters (over the tank filters). And I also got 2 live plants. Now my ph is about 9.0. I have 4 dannios left. They are fine now, but it's probably just a matter of time.

[James0816]

i'm just the oposite end of the spectrum....my well water is so acidic...ph at about 6.0. i had a major loss which i can only attribute to ph crash. nothing else explains it. now testing with crushed coral to bring up buffering and ph capabilities and keep it stable. i just hope it works.

[elmer]

I'm having the same problem. I have a 75 gal, and my ph was usually around 8.6. needless to say my fish were dying, even cichlids. It was suggested I try RO water, and I did a 12 gallon water change with RO, but nothing changed. I read if you filter over peat it will help lower. So I added peat in my filters (over the tank filters). And I also got 2 live plants. Now my ph is about 9.0. I have 4 dannios left. They are fine now, but it's probably just a matter of time.
Yikes! What kind pH test are you using? And what kind of peat?

[fishlover60]

i have a digital ph tester and the usual water test kit. don't remember exactly what kind of peat, i'm not at home to check. it was in a compressed block a girl at the garden store found for me. it's light in color when dry. she was going to try a block that was green in color.

[fishlover60]

it's long fiber sphagnum peat moss. i couldn't find anywhere where it said what type/brand to use. anyway, i just took it all out. besides that and the 2 real plants, i haven't changed anything recent, and I can't imagine adding just 2 plants would change it that much. i'll probably do another water change tomorrow then.

[elmer]

I've heard that rarely, some plants do weird things to the water. Maybe that's it. Also you need to check for additives and make sure you have pure moss. The moss I tried that works is brown. Any source of carbonates in the tank that could be raising the pH, like shells or rock? I am not an aquarium expert, but just as a general geek, my advice to you would be to do some experiments with water outside of the tank. Try to verify that your tests are working, etc. Another idea is that maybe the pH of your tap water changes from day to day. I've heard of that too. Good luck!