Need guidance

[tsmckee]

Hello. I am a wanna-be aquarist. The only things I have purchased so far are eight books. I am a huge reader/researcher. Unfortunately, the books are only so helpful. I have set my sights on a 65 gallon acrylic tank (with stand and canopy). The tank is 48x18x20. I want to have as many fish as is reasonable (community) and live plants. With this in mind, what would be a good filter choice? (Based on what I have read, I like the external canister filter best.) Of course, money is somewhat of an issue, but I believe in spending more if it means a better product. Also, I would appreciate any other help with regards to lighting. Right now I'm trying to figure out what fish I want so I can set up the tank with specifics in mind. I've thought about creating a spreadsheet with the different categories of fish characteristics (temp, ph, etc.) that all the books list. I was going to list the fish that I find appealing from the pictures; then cross-reference those fish to find ones that would be compatible. Does this sound like a good idea? I really want to do this right, so any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

[OrionGirl]

Looks like you are doing fine on your own. One tip--decide if you want a planted aquarium, or if you want a tank of plants with a few fish. Then, spend some time browsing the planted forum--plants are not really given justice in the newbiw thread. Over there, you will find lots of great information, including lighting, substrate, nutrients, CO2 and ferts. All of which don't need to be worried about if you want a nice tank with a few plants.

Another thing--peruse your local fish stores. Really spend some time in front of the tanks, watching the fish. If they have display tanks (ie, not just 1-2 species with some plastic plants), really watch the fish. Some fish may not be photogenic, but have personality that is worth keeping. Others may be beautiful, but are very shy, so you may not ever see them (I am not kidding), or see them only after lights out.

Welcome aboard AC--we'll help out with any specific questions if we can!

[tsmckee]

What is the difference between a planted aquarium and a tank of plants with a few fish? I want a lot of fish and enough live plants to be visually appealing as well as beneficial to those fish.

There are very few choices for local fish stores where I live. However, within fifty miles there are stores like PetsMart and Petco. How do those stores rate for buying fish?

Thank you so much for your help. I really like this website and I feel that I will gain a lot of knowledge.

[Anaxus]

A tank of plants with few fish means you can't tell you have fish :D (might be slight exageration on my part)
I have bought all my fish from petsmart with no problems. Of course each store is different.

[tsmckee]

The reason I'm setting up a tank is so I can see and enjoy the fish. I want the plants to act as an accent.

When the time comes, I'll try PetSmart. Maybe I'll have good results too.

I am starting with a clean slate.....I'm probably a month away from even buying my tank. I would appreciate any help that would get me off to a good start. I want to do this right.

[SpiritualSniper]

since you are a researcher and all, i'm sure you've read about this already, but just to make sure: do you know about the cycle new tanks go through? if so, do you know about the fishless cycle? this is a pretty important part of new setups....

btw, the way you're going about this is great, i wish i did it like that when i started....

[tsmckee]

About fishless cycling...Yes, I've read about it but I'm getting most of my information from this forum. Fishless cycling makes sense to me. Before reading about it, I had planned to setup my tank and make sure it was stable well in advance of introducing fish....I just didn't know there was a term for that.

[wetmanNY]

Which are the books you've been reading?

[tsmckee]

Books...I ordered them from Amazon.com after reading reviewers comments....Understanding Tropical Fish, Tropical Freshwater Aquarium (Tankmaster) both by Gina Sandford, The Pratical Aquarium Fish Handbook by David Goodwin, Starting Your First Aquarium by Dr. Herbert Axelrod, Tropical Aquarium Fish by John Dawes, Setting Up a Freshwater Aquarium by Gregory Skomal, Tropical Fishkeeping by Steve Windsor, and Aquarium Atlas by Dr. Rudiger Riehl & Hans A. Baensch. I've had the books less than a week so they haven't been read cover to cover. Right now I'm flipping through them and highlighting important sections.

[steeltown]

talk about starting off the hobby the right way, tsmckee. Good for you:)

[cindywindy]

tsmkee,

Excellent ! You are doing the right thing by asking the important questions BEFORE you start. That puts you ahead of the game !

As for your filtration, you could easily do an AquaClear 500. IMO, AquaClears are the very best product on the market and also the most reasonably priced at www.bigalsonline.com Their prices are a fraction of that of your LFS (even AFTER shipping) and I buy everything I can there.

Second, an awesome book I recommend if you are looking for other suggestions is The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums, but David Boruchowitz. David is a pioneer in the hobby and is now the editor of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine. He is dedicated to teaching the hobby and writes in an easy-to-understand manner.

You can read more about the process of fishless cycling at my friend Wetman's site at www.skepticalaquarist.com . It will tell you step-by-step how to go about it, and you will find loads of other information there that you can use as well. Fishless cycling is the absolute way to go, and I'm happy to hear that you are leaning in that direction !

If we can help you along the way, feel free to ask ... that's what we're here for ! :)

[Tempest]

If you decide to fishless cycle, it is best not to put your plants in until after the tank cycles. The ammonia used in the cycle tends to cause a huge algae growth on the plants. :)

[tsmckee]

CindyWindy,

Thanks so much for all of your advice. I've gone to BigAl's and requested a catalog. You're right about the prices. I compared a few products for which I remembered prices at other websites....the prices were better at BigAl's. I'll definately go there when it's time to buy.

I went to the link about fishless cycling and printed some information. I'm adding that to the already 2-inch plus stack of articles I've printed off the internet. I'm going to assemble everything in a three-ring binder with clear sleeves.....my own custom-made (and cheap, I might add) book!

I plan to check into the book you recommended. I feel that you can never read to much. I even bought six books about salt-water tanks because I plan to try that too (in a few years when we've built our house).

About filters...I've read where some people have two filters for their tank. Do you think a canister (I was thinking of Eheim Pro Model 2026) and a power filter (like the Aquaclear you recommended) would be a good idea?

Thanks so much for your help. I'm really getting anxious to get my tank and set it up!!!

[tsmckee]

Tempest,

I was suprised to see your comment about not adding plants until after the cycling is finished. Everything I've read so far suggests that the plants help speed up the process by adding the necessary bacteria to start the cycling process. If you don't use plants, what have you used to introduce bacteria into your tank?

If I added plants at the beginning, and there was algae growth, do you think adding an algae-eating fish after cycling would get rid of it?

Thanks for your help!

[OrionGirl]

Adding plants in the begininng on a fishless cycle will reduce the quantity of ammonia available for the bacteria to consume--plants consume ammonia as well. Since there will be an abundance of nutrients and light, and neither the bacteria nor the plants are not yet well established, the algae can opportunistically develop. While adding an algae eating fish can help, it's usually best to prevent algae through other means. If you purchase a fish just to control a temporary problem, you then have to provide for the fish--either by encouraging algae, feeding algae tabs, etc. Preventing an algal bloom before it happens is much, much easier than controlling it after the fact.

[tsmckee]

OrionGirl,

If plants are added after cycling is finished, do they need to be added a little at a time like fish? Also, where do you get the bacteria to start your cycle?

Thanks!

[OrionGirl]

Nope, you can add lots of plants all at once and be fine. In fact, after a fishless cycle, you can add all your fish right away as well. For seeding, from a healthy tank, either the solids collected from a friends water change, some of their filter media, or a scoop of gravel will work wonderfully. Water from a water change will not help--very few bacteria are free floating. If you do not have access to these, the bacteria will develop, albeit more slowly, from the water. There are many products sold that claim to seed your tank with bacteria, but with the exception of BioSpira, a MarineLand product, these have not been proven at all effective. If you can find BioSpira, it should be refridgerated and have a definite shelf life. Following the exact instructions has proven effective for several people here, though deviating from those instructions has caused some serious problems.

[tsmckee]

So, all the fish can be added at once, too? I thought the chemical balance in the tank would be thrown off by adding more than a couple at a time because the bacteria would not be able to handle so much waste at once...they have to build up to it gradually.

Unfortunately, I do not know anyone with a tank. I guess I could ask my lsf for some gravel or filter material when the time comes.

By the way, OrionGirl, what are the specs for your tank? I always enjoy reading about the specs on successful tanks.

Thanks!

[OrionGirl]

The purpose of the fishless cycle is to build up a huge bacteria bed, much larger than the one needed to support a reasonable amount of fish. This means that there is no concern about wastes building up--the bacteria are already there and ready to work.

I have several tanks:
20 gallon, 4 gouramies (2 gold, 2 blue), 1 african frog, planted with terrarium and aquatic plants.
40 gallon, moderately planted, 4 dwarf puffers, 5 turquiose rainbows, 5 neons, 4 blue tetras, 4 cories, 3 bristlenose plecos, 1 chocolate pleco, 1 butterfly pleco, an ever increasing number of kuhli loaches, 1 weather loach, and more I can't recall.

5 gallon, 1 betta, 1 oto, 1 kuhli, 1 killie.

5 gallon, 3 dwarf gouramies, 5 kuhli loaches.

And that's just the FW fish!

[tsmckee]

Wow! Color me impressed! Where do you keep all of these tanks?

One of the things I like to read about in established tanks is the combination of fish that live together successfully. Some of the fish you mentioned are ones that I have flagged with Post-It notes in my books.

Thank you for clearing up the confusion about the bacteria and fishless cycling. What you said makes perfect sense to me.

What do you think about the filter question I posted a few messages ago? (The one about having two filters.) I'm still nervous about buying something wrong. I'd rather learn from other people's mistakes than kill any fish trying to learn from my own.

[cindywindy]

Hi, tsmckee !

Your idea of buying an Eheim is a good one. Overall, the Eheim filter is one of the best that you can buy, one of the best on maintenance, and also the most efficient. Well worth the cost. If you go with the Eheim, you probably won't need additional filtration, unless you want to overfilter a bit.

You asked earlier where the bacteria for the cycle comes from. The bacteria "itself" is not introduced into the tank via plants or anything else. The ammonia in the water is what begins the reproduction of such bacteria. You MUST have a source of ammonia present, otherwise there will be no nitrogen cycle !

If you have read about fishless cycling, you will already know that you can use regular household ammonia to begin the nitrification process.

Any more questions, feel free to ask. :)

[Corax]

Just be careful not to use ammonia that has OTHER things in it, such as perfumes. Those are bad for the tank. Use only 100% pure ammonia.

[OrionGirl]

No, the bacteria is not introduced with ammonia. The bacteria consumes ammonia, and so can develop into a colony instead of a few stray cells when there is a plentiful supply. The bacteria is in the water, on gravel, decoration, or plants taken from healthy systems. The ammonia is a food source, not a source of the bacteria. High concentrations of ammonia, such as in a bottle off the shelf, will kill the bacteria. If it didn't, the bacteria would consume the ammonia, resulting in nitrites.

[Corax]

Onion, are you saying that if one were to overdose their tank with ammonia during a fishless cycle, that one could in essence obliterate the bacteria we are trying to encourage to grow? I never thought about it that way.

Makes sense though, ammonia IS used in household cleaners as a disinfectant afterall..

[OrionGirl]

I think to obliterate the colony, you'd have to get the titer pretty high. Too high of an ammonia concentration results in a much slower decline--ie, it takes twice as long for the ammonia readings to go down. Since we don't know the specific bacteria responsible for breaking down the ammonia, there's not a reliable way to determine if they are removed, in stasis, or what. However, healthy bacteria reproduce exponentially, so unless the increased ammonia concentration impairs the bacterias ability to reproduce, doubling the ammonia should have very little impact on how long it takes the tank to cycle. But, people who overdose, or grossly overstock their fish tank, report difficulties in getting ammonia levels to decrease. This suggests that the high ammonia levels are in fact limiting the bacteria's reproduction in some way. How? I don't know. Could be that the increased ammonia reduces the availability of other supplies, like oxygen.

[Corax]

Or perhaps there is a finite ammount of ammonia it can process and the colony must increase population to handle the excess? I know when I cycle a sw tank with cocktail shrimp, the ammonia is off any chart you can find. Perhaps the lag time is simply the colony compensating?

[cindywindy]

LOL !

So, according to your line of thinking, if I boiled everything I chose to add to my tank, and disinfected it completely with bleach beforehand to rid it of all of its external bacteria, and then added an ammonia source to an aquarium full of sterile, distilled water afterward, that I would not have a cycle occur ? Of course I would !

There are countless aquarists that enjoy bare-bottom tanks with no decorations, gravel or plants at all ! Yes, even those incur a cycle. Under those circumstances, there is no other source of bacteria introduced, except that which is directly related to the presence of fish.

Nitrifying bacteria are indeed introduced by the ammonia present, in the form of urea, decaying food, by respiration, or by household ammonia. The only things required to begin a cycle are ammonia, oxygen, and surface area on which to grow. Plants, gravel, and decorations are of no consequence.

[slipknottin]

Ive always heard that the bacteria travel through the air.

High levels of ammonia will crash your alk levels and kill off any bacteria growth which isnt tolerant of the violent Ph swings.

[cindywindy]

Yes, of course. The ammonia will always be processed into nitrIte. Such goes the nitrogen cycle, and it is the one true constant.

Indeed it will slow to almost a standstill as it struggles to take up the additional bioload, but it will not be killed off altogether by even the highest levels.

EDIT :
LOL Slip, my comment was not directed at you... we posted at the same time !

[OrionGirl]

To a certain degree, that's the case. But, the exponential growth of bacteria is the hiccup. If you double the food source, and it has no hindering effect, then the increased length of time would not take twice the length of time. For example, if the concentration is 10, and it takes 10 days for the bacteria population to consume it, then doubling the concentration to 20 should result in a colony capable of completely consuming the population in (2*10) - X days, because with exponential growth, a single doubling of the colony happens very quickly. However, this is not the case--if you double the concentration, it takes more than twice as long for the bacteria to catch up, meaning the growth rate is no longer exponential. So, something is happening that actually slows the growth rate of the bacteria colony.

[OrionGirl]

The bacteria are introduced in the water. Try it--I can get the nitrogen cycle to occur in a glass of water. I'm not saying that the only way to get the bacteria present is through introduction of a seeded medium, but adding ammonia from a bottle won't do it either.

[Dale W.]

You guys have forgotten about airborn bacterias and spores that also contribute to the life cycle. Yes, we breath them every day. They are also present (very minimal) in the water that you use to fill the tank. In essance, you can cycle a bare tank with nothing in it. It wont be a very noticable cycle but it will be there.

[OrionGirl]

Originally posted by cindywindy
The only things required to begin a cycle are ammonia, oxygen, and surface area on which to grow. Plants, gravel, and decorations are of no consequence.

Explain how the bacteria can exist in the ammonia without converting it into nitrites. No really, this should be good. Immaculate conception in a tank. :rolleyes:

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Reefscape
You guys have forgotten about airborn bacterias and spores that also contribute to the life cycle.

I didnt! I didnt! :D

[cindywindy]

Yes, of course it is slowed down to a large degree, thank you for reiterating my point because it is important for beginners to understand this concept. :)

I'm not talking about exponential growth here. The statement that was made was that nitrifying bacteria will die off in extreme bioload conditions and I was only pointing out that while we may think that is the case because the process has slowed almost to a dead halt, that it is really not the case at all.

There is a substantial amount of bacterial reproduction that is going on, under the surface of what we can see or measure with our testing kits and while we may think and believe the bacteria have been eliminated rest assured, they haven't been. They are busy reproducing to keep up with the increased ammonia level, albeit at a slower rate. It's a matter of supply meeting demand.

[Corax]

Originally posted by cindywindy
LOL !
Nitrifying bacteria are indeed introduced by the ammonia present, in the form of urea, decaying food, by respiration, or by household ammonia.

Nope, the ammonia is just that, ammonia. Pure and simple. the nitrifying bacteria is present in the water when you get it from the tap, but in numbers far too small to be of much use right away... The introduction of the ammonia simply gives the bacteria food to grow and multiply.

[cindywindy]

According to Tom Griffin :

"Unfortunately, neither the originally named two types, nor the most likely current candidates (edit: referring to the previously thought forms of nitrifying bacteria vs the ones they are now claiming) have a spore form, so in practice both types must be obtained live and actively metabolizing.

Where do we get these wonderful tank helpers? Well, it is possible to get them with fish. As fish nibble on their environment a lot in the search for food, they tend to have ingested a few good guy bacteria as they grazed, and when we bring them home, some of these bugs may survive the fish’s gut to initiate a colony in our tanks. This is the old way to “cycle” a tank, using a few, hopefully ammonia resistant, fish to start off. It does work, but it is anything from lightly to severely stressful for the fish (and keeper). "

[OrionGirl]

Thanks for the new myth--I'm sure others will be amused that the ammonia could be the source of the very bacteria that consume the ammonia. Heck, magnify that and you will have a perpetual motion machine. ;)

You may not want to talk about exponential growth rates (for example, how fast the truth spreads), but if you understood biology and math you would see that exponential growth rates for an expanding population means that increased food supplies means maximum growth rates, not prolonged ones. If this is not demonstrated by actual events, then something must be restricting growth rates. It may be ammonia concentrations, or changes brought about by metabolic processes, such as pH swings.

[Corax]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Thanks for the new myth--I'm sure others will be amused that the ammonia could be the source of the very bacteria that consume the ammonia. Heck, magnify that and you will have a perpetual motion machine. ;)

Don't tell Dr. Ron Shimek, he'll promote such lunacy as the gospel =)

[Tom Griffin]

Since my name got mentioned......

Ammonia contains no bacteria. Ammonia is ammonia. Pur ammonia is even more so.

You have to seed the tank with something or hope the air bears enough to give it a start.

if you keep adding ammonia sooner or later it will cycle since airborne bacteria will eventually find a way in.

But, the hypothetical sterile tank with only ammonia added, if kept hermetically sealed...will not cycle.

Nothig there to consume the ammonia. It comes from outside sources.

Tom

[mogurnda]

Ammonia is ammonia. Pur[e] ammonia is even more so This totally cracked me up. Maybe I've been at the computer too long today, but the absolute truth of this statement just hit home.

[Skittyfish]

If you are going for a planted tank, stick with the canister filter, less surface agitation means less CO2 loss. Definately check out the plant forum, post any questions you have. It is worth the effort to find out what you need before you set it up.

[Mantis_22]

If your aiming for a filter go for the penguins :D

[carpguy]

So aside from all of that business about the bacteria (who will find their way to an ammonia source but who do not live in the ammonia bottle), redundancy isn't a bad idea but Eheims enjoy a reputation for rock solid dependability and an HOB will drive off a certain amount of CO2. If you want a planted tank (as opposed to a tank with a few plants) CO2 and lighting will be issues -- lots of friendly help in the plant forum.

What's the difference? Just a matter of degree and of focus… You sound like someone willing to do the research and the work. I personally think fully planted is so incredible (http://www.aquabotanic.com/contest/index.asp) that its worth the extra effort and expense, but be prepared for both.

As far as stocking goes, here are two ideas you may find interesting…

You'll want fish that are compatible but you'll also want a fully involved tank -- think about where the fish will spend time and how they'll vie for your attention. I tried to get a few bottom dwellers, a few schools of small schoolers for activity and one pair of centerpiece fish. There's harmony as far as behavior but also in terms of appearance and general mix. A lot of beautiful fish may wind up looking like a jumbled up mess or like a natural community living in this particular slice of water that somehow wound up in your living room.

You might want to look into running a regional tank or even a biotope (http://www.mongabay.com/fish/biotope.htm). Not for everyone, but fun for the research obsessed. I went regional -- I liked a lot of SE Asian fish and the water was similar to my tap so I went with that. You may find it interesting and it may help give you a better focus.

Either way or a different way you'll want to be careful with the wish list books. I did the same thing and got my heart set on some mighty obscure little fish. So sad :( . Availability and how far you'll drive for a couple of little fish are limiting factors. This directory (http://fins.actwin.com/dir/stores.php?c=1&r=49) may help narrow the search. It got me to all of my favorite fishstores here in NY.

You sound like you're off to a great start, good luck and enjoy, and welcome to AqC :D

[tsmckee]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I was beginning to think you guys forgot about me. My head was spinning with all the amonia talk. I'm new to this so most of the previous posts went over my head!

Carpguy...thanks for the great information and the links you included. But, what is a HOB?

Do those power filters that hang over the bank of the tank cause too much surface agitation (ie loss of CO2 for plants)? The reason I ask is I was thinking of one in addition to a Eheim canister (because several people mention having more than one filter) for extra filtering.

Does anyone have any opinions on undergravel jets (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php)? Since I am starting from scratch, I wondered if that might be a good addition to my tank.

I continue to appreciate everyone's help.

[Skittyfish]

An HOB or Power filter unless modified will cause a lot of surface agitation. You definately don't want one with a bio-wheel on a planted tank, causes way to much CO2 loss. I have an eheim canister on my planted tank, I moved the spray bar down lower and turned it so the water was directed more in a downward motion. I have no surface agitation at all.

I tried the jets, but my powerhead wasn't powerfull enough to run it, several people seem to have them.

[OrionGirl]

I don't agree that the HOB's (hang on back, by the way!) are too much--they just have to be setup right. I have an AC300 on my 40, and as long as the water level is kept up, I haven't noticed any change in my CO2 levels. Of course, unless you are seriously overstocking the tank, the HOB won't make much difference. It might provide better mechanical filtration, but with plants and almost any kind of power filter, you will have all the biological filtration you need to support a standard fish load.

I haven't used the jets, but my understanding is that they help keep the solid wastes in the water column, where the power filter can easily get them. They sound prety nifty, but I haven't heard anything that indicates they are better than a RUGF or carefully aimed powerheads.

Sorry we careened off course there...Sometimes the 'finer' points get out of hand! ;)

[tsmckee]

Thanks for all the advice. When I get back from Disney World (yeah....a vacation!!!), I'm going to purchase my tank. It's hard just talking about doing something and not actually getting to do it. I can't wait.

By the way, I'm planning on buying a Tenecor acrylic tank with the matching stand and canopy (65 gallon flat-back hexagon). Does anyone have any opinions on this brand of tank?

.
I tried to get a few bottom dwellers, a few schools of small schoolers for activity and one pair of centerpiece fish. There's harmony as far as behavior but also in terms of appearance and general mix.

My dad had a pair of discus many years ago and thinks I should get a mating pair. He said they were attached to my mother and would follow her as she walked across the room. I'm for that if I could have a few other fish as well. Can someone recommend compatible fish for discus?

Thanks again

[OrionGirl]

You'll want to make sure your tankis very stable before adding the discus--they can be picky if not acclimated properly, or exposed to shifting parameters.

The Cichlid forum should be able to help you out with tankmate selection.

Oh yeah--have fun on vacation! :D

[tsmckee]

Thanks, OrionGirl. I'll check it out.