tiny brackish top feeders?

[mellowvision]

I'm about to start up a small brackish tank. I'd like to have 1 or 2 top feeders... Indian Glassfish are all I've come up with.... there must be other options besides guppies etc...

any ideas?

[vampie]

Most livebearers are either brackish or can adjust easily, but I suppose that's what you meant by "guppies etc". You can also look into certain killifish and rainbowfish - I've kept Diamond Killis once, they get to about 2" and will eat flakes.

I should also point out that Glassfish are either brackish (they can adjust of course) nor surface dwellers/feeders.

[Pufferpunk]

How about halfbeaks?

[mellowvision]

I got the impression that halfbeaks needed a lot of swimming room. the tank will be 10 gallons

[vampie]

I wouldn't go with halfbeaks, they require more space than a 10g would offer, and are very sensitive to changes in water parameters.

[mellowvision]

so there must be something... I like the glass fish, have read they do well in brackish waters and fresh water alike... but I'd really like something like a hatchet... or a mudskipper, but something that will do well in a smaller tank.

[Sploke]

Smaller brackish tanks are tough, I found that, aside from guppies, most brackish fish seem to get big to very big. I have the mollies in my tank and they are all over, but probably too big for a 10. The bumblebee gobies are cool but not top feeders.

I read an article where they were catching glassfish in native brackish waters in India. Don't know what the sg was though. I've heard that the indian mudskippers stay smaller than the atlantic mudskippers, but I would assume still not small enough to go into a 10gal.

[Pufferpunk]

Why not just stick with a school of glassfish?

[vampie]

Glassfish do okay in both fresh and brackish, though usually sold in freshwater, it'd need some level of acclimation. They're also picky eaters, and hang mid-to-bottom as opposed to the surface. Indian Mudskippers are way too big for a 10g, and would also need a beach-like setup.

[mellowvision]

even though I'll have a beach like set up, I am not considering mudskippers because I know they are too large for the tank. (the tank is a 15 g, with 10g of water..)

aclimation won't be a problem, as I am starting the tank freshwater and going to transition to brackish over a month. it will be very mildly brackish, just enough for the inverts to have what they need. BBgobies are really attractive to me, but with inverts I'll end up with a tank full of bottom dwellers hiding all the time. I may go with just glass fish, but haven't even seen them locally. I guess I could get 1 guppy, but I'm not interested in breeding them. if any breeding happens in this tank, it will be amanos.

[vampie]

I've seen the glassfish often in NY, usually at Asian-owned stores. Unfortunately, all of them are dyed.

[Sploke]

what kind of inverts are you doing?

[Dwarf Puffers]

even though I'll have a beach like set up, I am not considering mudskippers because I know they are too large for the tank. (the tank is a 15 g, with 10g of water..)

aclimation won't be a problem, as I am starting the tank freshwater and going to transition to brackish over a month. it will be very mildly brackish, just enough for the inverts to have what they need. BBgobies are really attractive to me, but with inverts I'll end up with a tank full of bottom dwellers hiding all the time. I may go with just glass fish, but haven't even seen them locally. I guess I could get 1 guppy, but I'm not interested in breeding them. if any breeding happens in this tank, it will be amanos.

Amanos are FW. Their babies float down the stream to brackish areas and develop, then when they are strong enough return to FW.

[vampie]

Amanos can also live in low-end brackish.

[mellowvision]

yeah, I'm confident that the amanos will do alright, from what I've read. The tank will also house 1 or 2 (I only have 1 now) red claw crabs. in fact, the only reason the tank is brackish is for the one **** crab.... but I like them a lot. I've had no problems with the crab chasing amanos in my fw tank, in fact the crab seems to coexist with everything just fine.

I would prefer a non-dyed glass fish, but if it were dyed, it wouldn't stop me, unless I had a non-dyed option available. I think I saw one yesterday at a chain store, that had a blueish stripe on it, very faint... but there were no lables for that fish, and no one knew what it was...

[vampie]

I've kept amanos in brackish myself, with fiddler crabs. Do add them (if you haven't already) while your tank is still freshwater.

As for glassfish, the one place that always seems to have them is Aquarium Gallery on Avenue U. Though most Asian-owned stores seem to stock them regularly for some reason. Another fish that's dyed with a stripe is the Black Widow, but you can easily tell them apart as the glassfish is transparent.

[mellowvision]

awesome. I just got my wheels back on the road, so I'll head to U tomorrow for some fish gawking and bahn mi. thanks!

[janfow365]

I think one great option would be sailfin mollies. They are truely beautiful creatures, and when they get acustom to your tank, they will eat from the surface. They swim in all the water... not particularly top, middle, or bottom. They also breed fairly easily... and the babies are well worth raising, if you have the space needed.

Mollies, as most livebearers, can adjust well to brackish tanks. My tank is fully brackish, and they are thriving. I just feed mine freeze dried shrimp (the babies too, I powder it between my fingers), and they're doing just dandy.

[vampie]

Thought I'd also give you address in case you didn't know it - 1314 Avenue U.

Sailfin mollies are indeed beautiful, and brackish as well, but are too big for a 10g.

[mellowvision]

yeah, I think they're too big, and would rather not have live bearers. if there were a brackish equivalent to the neon tetra, or a bumble bee goby that didn't stick to the bottom, I'd be going that route.

thanks for the address.

[TheXman]

Most rainbowfish are freshwater, not brackish fish. However, Pseudomugil cyanodorsalis are brackish rainbows (blue-eyes to be more specific) and very pretty little fish, if you can find them.

[vampie]

There is a number of brackish rainbowfish once you start looking into it, as well as freshwater species (such as bosemani) that can be acclimated to brackish.

[mellowvision]

so, checked out Aquarium Gallery on avenue U... they had painted glassfish, but they were pretty large and really pink and teel. ugh. they had a few nice fish, but for the most part not as impressive a store as 65th and 8th ave or Pacific on delancy... neither of which had glass fish either.

no one was selling any decent java moss either. 65th street had about 6 tons of brown algae ridden moss, that I didn't want, and Pacific had none for sale..

what gives on the java moss front? :)

[vampie]

65th and 8th? I don't go there often, but they don't seem too impressive to me. They always had this saltwater graveyard in the back and a dog chained in the middle.

Java moss seems a bit seasonal. I get mine at Petco believe it or not. It's $1.99 a bag, but I have no idea when and how often they restock.

[Pufferpunk]

Please do not buy painted glassfish!

[mellowvision]

here's a link to the tank I'm talking about. it came mostly together tonight.

yeah, painted glass fish are only a last resort. I have no shortage of fish to occupy the tank before I start brackishinating... cherry barbs will be the first, besides the crab of course. the barbs will come out in a few weeks.

[mellowvision]

oops forgot the link
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1012228#post1012228

[Pufferpunk]

Even as a last resort, don't buy them & support such a horrid practice. Nevermind, their high rate of disease-low rate of survival.
See: http://www.deathbydyeing.org/

[TheXman]

There is a number of brackish rainbowfish once you start looking into it, as well as freshwater species (such as bosemani) that can be acclimated to brackish.
Don't do that to a freshwater rainbow like a bosemani. Yes, they might survive because they're tough fish, but they won't do as well and their colors won't be good. Almost all rainbows that you can find available are freshwater, and should stay that way. And it's not just me that is saying this. The world renowned fish discoverer and rainbow expert Heiko Bleher himself made this point very clearly on a rainbowfish forum a few months ago. Bleher is the one that discovered and brought the first praecox rainbows, Bleher's rainbows, turquoise rainbows and many others from the wild. If you have one of these rainbows, it's likely a descendant of the fish he brought back as very few other people have been able to successfully bring live rainbows out of the wild jungles of New Guinea. There are a few brackish rainbows, mostly blue eyes species like P. cyanodorsalis, but not many.

[vampie]

Yes, rainbows like bosemani are freshwater and ideally should be kept that way, but they won't suffer any damage when kept in brackish as long as you keep the rest of the water parameters ideal, in the same sense as mollies and brackish BBGs in freshwater.

Though it wouldn't matter, we've found that the OP's tank is 10g anyways.

[Pufferpunk]

Celebes rainbows are brackish, I believe. What about Werneri (sp)?

[mellowvision]

I like the celebes... they stay small too... now if I can find some... :)

[TheXman]

Yes, rainbows like bosemani are freshwater and ideally should be kept that way, but they won't suffer any damage when kept in brackish as long as you keep the rest of the water parameters ideal, in the same sense as mollies and brackish BBGs in freshwater.

That's not what Heiko Bleher says. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's hard to imagine any source better than Bleher when it comes to rainbowfish. I think that it's important to debunk the myth that rainbowfish species like bosemanis and praecox can be considered brackish when they are not.
I. werneri are also a freshwater species that shouldn't be kept in a brackish tank: "best results will be achieved if maintained at a temperature range of 23-28°C; pH 6.0-7.0; and water hardness of 10-70 ppm (mg/L)." (from Adrian Tappan's Home of the Rainbowfish: http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Werneri.htm ).
As for the celebes rainbowfish, I think they are freshwater, but I can't be sure because I'm not too familiar with the Telmatherina genus

[Pufferpunk]

Yeah, I wasn't sure about the Werneri. Pretty sure about the Celebes though. Bosmani is mute, as they grow quite large & it's only a 10g.

[vampie]

I wouldn't trust anyone religiously. I don't think anyone considers those rainbows brackish, just as no one would consider a black molly to be freshwater. But they can be kept in brackish and still thrive.

[mellowvision]

starting to get curious about other inhabitants, like barnicles, mussles, snails, and anenomies... wondering what is found at deltas and river mouths...

[vampie]

You mean brackish invertebrates? There are quite a few, though you're unlikely to see them in the hobby.

[Pufferpunk]

Nerite snails do quite well in BW. Also ghost shrimp.

[mellowvision]

well, just back from a local chain store, and they had a lot to keep me thinking... they had a ton of glass fish, in various sizes, some celebes rainbows, although no one could point them out to me... lol, and a lot of crabs as well.. It took everything I had not to buy them on the spot, but I'm not quite ready, so I held off. Instead, got 1 tiny hatchet for my 20gallon... been looking for them for so long.

[TheXman]

I wouldn't trust anyone religiously. I don't think anyone considers those rainbows brackish, just as no one would consider a black molly to be freshwater. But they can be kept in brackish and still thrive.
Seriously,
Bleher has introduced hundreds of species into the aquarium hobby from locations around the globe, many of which he discovered himself. He probably has a dozen species named after him and has spent his life studying, discovering and acclimating species to aquariums, and rainbows are one of his "specialties". Yet still you dismiss his opinion as if it was the opinion of just another hobbyist, when in reality, it is the opinion of an expert in the field. And for the record, it also happens to be the opinion of several other rainbowfish experts. And by experts, I mean people who have kept and bred DOZENS of species of rainbowfish each. So why should we take your word when your main argument has to do with black mollies? Tell me, what is your source that is so infallible that it should be believed over the word of Heiko Bleher and other rainbowfish experts?

[mellowvision]

how about some links to expert opinions instead of all this banter?

[Pufferpunk]

I'm all out of ideas.

[mellowvision]

that's ok. I've pretty much decided to go with glass fish or celebes. I have a book, "the complete aquarium" that lists a few good options including those... it would be great to find the brackish hatchet fish equivalent, or the micro mud skipper... but I need to be realistic. brackish tanks are best on the large scale, and I'm not at that level.

[vampie]

I don't care much for this banter. I doubt anyone really thinks "Hmm.. bosemani rainbows!" when planning a brackish.

I think I have that same book. It's quite outdated, but it's got some really nice tanks in it. It had a pretty good crab setup if I remember correctly.

Have you looked into native fish yet?

[mellowvision]

by native do you mean native to around here, or native to south east asia?

when I first started out, I had this strict idea that everything had to be exactly like the crab's native environment... but let go of it after finding how large most of the native fish were, how difficult brackish tanks were, and how few plants from the region were available. If I could, I'd have a 200 gallon paludarium with crabs, skippers, and archers, and it would be a no brainer how to set it up... but I can't, and right now I'm stuck with a 15 gallon.

that's why the glass fish are attractive. they're small, cheap, hardy, and generally from the same region... maybe not a perfect choice, but one I can work with.

[vampie]

US native I meant. There's quite a number of US brackish fish I believe.

Most brackish fish do require bigger tanks, but the payoff is that they're some of the most unique fish you'll find in the hobby. Imagine what you could do with something like this: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2000.cgi?&op=showcase&category=1&vol=-1&id=93

Speaking of glassfish, did you ever manage to find them?

[mellowvision]

glassfish: yes, petco at union square had a handful, but I didn't buy them yet. they looked healthy.

I like what that guy in your link started... but it's not even close to how I'd want to see it planted... it feels empty, a bit bland, and unnatural.... but it's an awesome size, and the concept is there. thanks for the link.

[Pufferpunk]

Does look empty/boring but may be more like what the archers are used to living in--lots of swimming room.

[vampie]

I think it's one of the most accurate and natural biotopes I've seen. I probably would've planted it a bit more both in and above the water to give it some more interest though.

[mellowvision]

I don't think you'd ever come across something like this in nature, that wasn't also surrounded by more dense root systems and eroding coastal shelf. yeah, maybe you'd find a group of mangrove seedlings in sand, but not by itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mangroves.jpg

http://www.mongabay.org/images/aus_nz_full/fraser_mangrove_creek.gif

[Pufferpunk]

The 1st pic is what I picture archers swiming around in.

[mellowvision]

sooo, I found 3 awesome celebes rainbows at a LFS... and they are really healthy nice fish. so I did a little more reading and many sources say they are 1.5-2.5" others say 3-4"... doesn't seem like these will do well in 10 gallons of water. any thoughts?

[Pufferpunk]

I've never seen a 4"er. I tink 3 should be fine.

[mellowvision]

3 in 10 gallons?

[Pufferpunk]

Will that be the only fish? I think a pair would be nice.

[mellowvision]

the tank will have 1 crab, 2 or 3 amanos, and whatever fish I choose, it's between the unpainted glassfish or the celebes. I was thinking 3 fish would be ideal in the tank, in terms of visibility. right now I've got 2 cherry barbs in it with the amanos, and it seems empty. I can never find anyone.

[mellowvision]

but also, the lfs has 3, and their policy is buy 2 get one free... so I'm imagining they're going to WANT me to take the third, just to not have a single fish alone in a tank.

[vampie]

The rainbow and glassfish are roughly the same size - about 3". Both are schooling fish.

[Pufferpunk]

Yeah, go ahead & get the 3.

[mellowvision]

funny, I've never seen a glassfish larger than 1.75"...

[vampie]

Likewise, I've never seen an iridescent shark bigger than 4 inches.

A quick Google search on the rainbows point out that they'd need a 30"+ tank.

[mellowvision]

not sure if that's going to happen. the tank's a 15g tall as of now.

[TheXman]

OK,
Sorry for the delay.
I had trouble finding the original source of where I read Heiko Bleher's views on rainbows being brackish (celebes are different, so these comments don't necessarily apply to them), so I PM'd him on a rainbowfish site and this is his entire response word for word:
"Hi,

just a fast answer to your question: rainbowfishes are NOT used to brackish water - none. Only some species of blue eyes are.

Do NOT keep rainbowfishes in brackish watrer and do not try it, if you love your fishes. And why should you? The boesemani live in a pure freshwater lake in the center of the Vogelkop peninsula in New Guinea and have NO access to saltwater whatsoever.

If you want to be good with your fishes and enjoy them, dont. If you want to follow other, who have no idea and never went to colelct and never researched the habitats (as I do all the time), than just do it. It is up to you.
All the best

Heiko"
Like I said, he's certain about his answer, and he's got more field research experience than any other human alive, but If you don't just want to trust one source even though he's the most famous and generally accepted as the most knowledgeable person on the subject, here's a thread where other rainbowfish afficionados visit the subject: http://bowheads.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1707&highlight=brackish "Rainbowfish" is Gary Lange's handle, he's the rainbow expert in the US, gives talks regularly, and currently keeps about 30 species of rainbows. "Coralnerd" who referenced the article that found that long term exposure to salt reduced longevity, is a marine biologist who also keeps several rainbow species, but mostly Australian species. It should also be noted that the Australian species used in the article are some of the more salt-tolerant rainbows. Bosemanis, praecox, lacustrus, herbertaxelrodis, and incisus are all more common in pet shops, but are all PNG species that live in tropical jungle lakes or streams, have no access to saltwater, never experience high salt conditions in the wild, and therefore have an even lower salt tolerance than the Australian species.
Those are my sources, what are yours?

[Pufferpunk]

Likewise, I've never seen an iridescent shark bigger than 4 inches.
Here ya go!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/Pufferpunk/Other%20Fish/iridescentsharks.jpg

Celebes rainbows are blue eyed.

[mellowvision]

the only rainbow I've ever considered is the celebes...

3 posts up, we sorta ruled out celebes for this application, due to the small tank size. so I'm probably looking at 3 indian glass fish, with the crab and shrimp. I think it will be a lovely tank...

[Pufferpunk]

You are correct--it will be!

[TheXman]

Yeah, I know, but you did ask for the links to back up what I was saying, and I think it's important to debunk the myth that you can put any kind of rainbowfish in brackish conditions without harm. Did you ever look into the Pseudomugil cyanodorsalis? They are truly brackish fish, very small, and very beautiful little blue-backed fish. Here is a link if you're interested:
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Cyano.htm

[Pufferpunk]

That one looks very similar to the Celebes. Probably verry difficult to find I'd think.

[vampie]

Like I said, I don't care much for this debate as it is in large, quite pointless.

So what is the stocking plan now? The crab, amanos and 3x glassfish?

[mellowvision]

yeah, that's the current plan. it seems like the way to go being that i can get glassfish locally for 1.50 each...

[mellowvision]

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Cyano.htm

these are cool but I've never seen them anywhere, in person or in online stores.... doubt I'd be able to get them

[Pufferpunk]

They look a lot like the werneri.

[mellowvision]

thinking about it more, they may not be popular in the hobby, but there MUST be smaller brackish fish, the size of neons and smaller... the food chain doesn't usually just skip sizes... or is this where guppies fill the void?

[vampie]

Most brackish fish are specialized feeders, and generally aren't part of each other's food chains, fry aside.

[TheXman]

Like I said, I don't care much for this debate as it is in large, quite pointless.

So what is the stocking plan now? The crab, amanos and 3x glassfish?

In other words, you don't have anything to back up your position. The point is, I hope you stop suggesting rainbows as brackish fish, it's a myth that shouldn't be perpetuated.

[mellowvision]

seriously xman, get your own thread for that soap box of yours. no one cares how expert you think you are. you're just making it less likely anyone will discuss the topic at hand, my stocking plan. really. grow up

[TheXman]

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Cyano.htm

these are cool but I've never seen them anywhere, in person or in online stores.... doubt I'd be able to get them
They show up on aquabid from time to time. I also know a couple of people that keep these from the bowheads forum: http://bowheads.org/forums/index.php?gclid=CMyluf6vm4gCFR8eYQod1W75XA
You could post there to ask if anyone has some available, or if Gary Lange is giving a talk in your area, he might bring some cyanodorsalis eggs with him. Cyanodorsalis are related to threadfins which would account for some of the similarities, but their coloration is different and threadfins have much longer fins.

[TheXman]

And you need to live up to your handle a little better. My posts aren't killing your thread, and I've supplied you with some links that are directly related to what you're asking for. You also specifically challenged me to back up what I said and I did, so don't jump all over me when I then challenge the other guy to back up his claims.

[mellowvision]

you're just being way more aggressive than needed. I've been biting my tongue for several pages now. the argument's over.. let it go.

[vampie]

I don't care for this because it's too high-school and pointless for me. If you read through the pages, you're obviously just looking for an argument, and whatever result comes out of this isn't going to be of use to anyone.

You want me to stop suggesting rainbowfish for brackish tanks? That'd be quite easy, because this is the probably the first time I've done so. Did you think this comes up often?

You're right, I'm wrong, no rainbows in brackish everyone. If that's what you want to hear and what will stop this, there be it.