Water in airline - Help required

[nanahachi]

ok, this will sound lame, perhaps, but I'm again asking you guys and gals for help.

I was futzing with my Hagen CO2 system (I was attaching a second airline - its running from a coke bottle containing jello and yeast) and I pulled the airline and ladder out of the water. I attached the second airline (haphhazardly onto the bottom, where theoretically the CO2 bubbles will float up into the ladder mechanism), and resubmerged the airlines and the ladder.

Unfortunately, there now seems to be water in the airlines. I have tried detaching them from their sources, and blowing the water out, then reattaching them. however, water returns.

will the water be expelled by itself? right now, NO bubbles are coming out of either tube :(

I feel super lame, but if you guys can help, i would be in your debt. thanks so much for your help!!

(btw, this is all temporary. I am going to build a DIY reactor, and eventually get a pressurized system...)

[anonapersona]

Put the extra bottle on top of the tank and pile all the extra tubing on top too. Hold the tubing up and thump on the tubing to get the water to run back down toward the tank.

What's going on is that the column of water weighs more than the pressure in the bottle can move. Once that column of water is clear, the gas will keep it clear -- just consider this a warning -- if you ever take the top off the bottle while it is under the tank, it will siphon from the tank and make a huge mess on the floor (been there, done that!) A loose top can have it overflow the bottle and spill that yeasty mess on the floor -- nasty!

This is why the Hagen bottle is so clever, by hanging on the tank itself, it shouldn't have this problem. At least unless you've left a lot of tubing to hang down and get full of water, but if you've trimmed it this shouldn't happen to the Hagen bottle. If you've left it long, just pick up the excess and thump it the same as the other to chase the water to the tank, then leave it above the tank until everything is chugging along right.

Be sure to check the other end of the tubing, you might have pulled it loose from the bottle. The Hagen is easy to fix, the DIY can be a pain. I had lots of leaks with the aquarium silicon I used, leaks when using just silicone tubing, had best result from Liquid Nails adhesive from Home Depot. And of course check to be sure the Hagen top might need that last 1/4 turn after you thought you had it tight.

[anonapersona]

Do monitor your pH and Kh to keep an eye on the CO2 levels when you do this and it all gets going. Depending on your filtration and how much CO2 it blows off, you could get into an excess CO2 situation.

Check your levels CO2 charts (http://www.aquabotanic.com/charts.htm)

[nanahachi]

GREAT advice. that did the trick :)

the new coke bottle isnt putting out CO2 yet, but when it does, and I have probs, ill follow your method. Strangely, I actually trimmed the Hagen's airline in order to use the airline for the new coke bottle...so it wasnt sagging, but the new bottle's is sagging b/c the bottle is lower than the thank.

you hit it spot on, thanks for the help!. i hope if someone else comes across this problem, your answer can help them too.

ill check my levels after the light goes out...i just added some Equilibrium anyway, so my level will be different in a little while anyway.

your answer not only fixed my problem, but may help prevent any other problems from arising. this place is great. thanks! :)

[nanahachi]

also...for anyone who is curious:

my new jello DIY bottle has started putting out CO2 bubbles, one every 7 secs or so, and while the airline had first had water in it, with time, i could see the water line within the tubing recede as little by little the CO2 gas was pushing out the water

anyway, thanks again.

[Mantis_22]

why dont you just hang your DIY coke bottle on the tank also. Just get one of those cellphone clips and hang it on the tank. The ducttape the bottle to it or get a hot glue gun.?

[anonapersona]

I'd be afraid to try to hang a 2 liter bottle on a tank, If it breaks and crashes, you might never get the stink out of the carpet!

Yeah, and about that siphoning, don't think that you can put a strong clip on the line and leave it hanging below the tank while you change the bottle... you will end up with a big puddle in the carpet.

Just make it a habit, right now, that you only disconnect the bottle when it is above the tank, all the line is above the tank, and you don't put it back below the tank until it is bubbling into the tank. Safer that way.

Now, how big is this tank and what sort of filter do you run? The Hagen plus the DIY bottle is a lot of gas. I ran those together for a while while I was testing jello recipes on a 20 gallon but the Whisper HOB filter running with a slightly low water level kept the CO2 below 15 ppm at all times, so I could never OD no matter how much CO2 went into the tank. I had both systems running so that if the new mix was a low rate or died early, I could keep the pH level constant at 7.6.

On another tank, when I switched from HOB to a canister filter, the Co2 went up 10 ppm, from 15 to 25 ppm. I am careful to not run the gas too fast on that tank now. I've actually cut the sugar in the bottle to lower the initial rate, and I watch carefully for the first day of a new bottle. But, this shows you how important the filter is to the CO2 levels you maintain.

[nanahachi]

anonapersona, thanks for coming back to this thread, and for the clarifications about keeping the bottle and line ABOVE the tank. will do.

i have a 20g long, with Filstar XP1 cannister filter, AquaClear 200 HOB, JBJ 65w compact flourescent, the Hagen CO2 thing, and my DIY jello bottle.

so I am actually having some problems with my CO2 bottles, and its frustrating the hell out of me.

after much ado, I pulled the Hagen airline out of the ladder diffuser, and put the jello airline in instead, b/c it was putting out 1 bubble per 12 secs, as opposed to 1 per 20-30 secs (the Hagen). for the Hagen airline left hanging, I just attached an airstone to the end for now...it doesnt seem to be putting out any CO2 through the airstone.

tomorrow, i want to go out and get a T-shaped connector that will allow me to hook both the DIY and Hagen bottles up to the diffuser.

any and all suggestions will be very much appreciated.

I am going to check my levels in a bit, after the lights go out. ill try to post if i can.

also, if anyone has ideas: i bought 5 amano shrimp yesterday, and now can only find 4 :( the only other fish are 5 white clouds, which seem harmless. could one have climbed out of the tank? any preventative measures i can take to prevent it?

thanks!

[jdwyz]

the simplest and best way to prevent the back siphoning of water is to put the one way check valve inside your aquarium about an inch or so above the hagen diffuser.works perfectly.

[anonapersona]

When I had two units running, I stuck one below the diffuser with a suction cup and adjusted it so the bubble got caught inthe lower runs of the diffuser, like you had it before. but it just was open, no airstone. Airstones get clogged up so easy. Not needed with the diffuser ramps.

I'm not sure if the T in the line will work, the higher pressure unit may dominate, keeping the other depressed.

If this is the first time the Hagen has been used, it will get better, I can't explain why. I suspect some manufacturiing oils in the bottle, or something that takes awhile to get right so the yeast works. The second batch is typically much better, don't give up.

I am curious, is the bubble put out by the DIY bottle bigger in diameter than the Hagen bottle? Always was in my system, never knew why.

As for the shrimp, check the AC filter, they can climb up the outflow. All 5 Amano shrimp in my 20 gallon did that upon introduction to the tank, never after that. I suspect they are trying to get back to the tank they came from, in their little shrimpy brains they figure the old place must be *upstream*. The changing pH and CO2 levels will have something to do with that also. The shrimp have a harder time "hanging at the surface" when in need of O2 than the fish would, so they climb the filter, it can suggest high CO2 levels. Better measure.

Just in case you find CO2 levels levels are very high, or pH low, you might consider lowering the water level in the tank temporarily, or at least be aware that dong that could help quickly if the fish (or shrimp) get stressed. I am always concerned aout toying with things just before lights out. The plants haven't had a chance to boost the Oxygen levels in the tank, and the CO2 could get high. In the future you ought to delay dong this until morning, when you can obsreve longer.

It is quite possible that both CO2 units will get going better over then next several hours. Were it me, I'd probably try to wake up several hours from now, just to be sure the jello hadn't foamed up, or the bubble count gone sky high. (reminded to check the foam in my gelatine bottle, foam is slowly rising since new bottle on Monday -- OK now, might be an issue tmorrow or the next day)

[nanahachi]

wow, another great reply. thanks!!

the latest developments:

the DIY bottle is plugged into the Hagen diffuser. the bubbles DO seem a bit bigger than the Hagen bubbles. However, when loose in the tank, about 1 bubble every 2 secs comes out of the airline from the DIY. the Hagen's is much much slower. What is weird is that the DIY bubbles, when attached to the Hagen diffuser, come out about 1 bubble ever few secs, but after mayber 20 secs, it will stop putting out bubbles. it will start up again shortly after (i dont know how long...mintues?). The Hagen airline is just sitting in the tank, pinned between my Hagen diffuser and my cannister IN-pipe...with NO airstone or anything on the end.

I have added an AC 301 powerhead to the tank, on a timer, to run when the lights are off, for now. this should help the CO2 dissapate during the lights off hours. i will either remove this when i go pressurized, or get a smaller powerhead, b/c this one doesnt fit too well in my tank, and its pushing out too much water/bubbles even on the lowest setting.

I had HUGE problems with my cannister filter last night. spent hours trying to fix it, so my CO2 worries took a backburner last night. I have a Filstar XP1, and I had a hell of a time getting it to prime again. I dont know if this caused the problem, but I resolved it by fixing a kink in the outflow tubing. sigh.

as for my shrimp, after looking my my HOB, and finding no shrimp, I have 2 theories:
1) the shrimp molted, and is hiding where i cant find it
2) it is dead.

I found a clear, shell-like membrane lookin thing, with a bit of red running through it (resembles the shrimp's intestine/inner organs). Having only the harmless and skittish white clouds, and the shrimp, i dont think anything ate the missing shrimp. The other shrimp are fearless, swim all over my tank, and have made me incredibly happy to just watch them do their work.

thanks Anonpersona!!

I should have some pics up tonight or tomorrow, but my tank looks like crap since so many plants have died off...time to get more background plants and more shrimp!!

[anonapersona]

Hope it all goes well for you.

30 bubbles per minute is a lot of gas. You ARE testing the water, right? What sort of pH change have you seen? And the KH?

I'd suspect the shrimp molted and is hiding. They stay in the plants while they are shelless. A nervous time for a shrimp, but a good sign that he was eating enough to need to shed.

And, usiing a check valve is probably a good idea, but the plastic ones either don't work or get corroded by the CO2 and water... the one time I really needed it, it didn't work at all.

when you get this going, you will see results in just a few days.

[nanahachi]

I missed feeding time tonight (only feed once a day, when i get home from work). relationships can really suck.

anyway, as of 1am, 2 hours after lights out:

pH = 7.0
Nitrites = .3 (way way down from before, thankfully)
KH = 3 degrees(?)

i am sort of confused about my Tetra KH tester...it says to count how many drops to go from blue to yellow, without providing a color guide. well, it never starts blue. you add one drop, it turns a super pale yellow. 2 drops, pale yellow. 3 drops, yellow. 4 drops, more yellow.

so i counted 3 drops as the correct number. but i really dont have a clue...this test kit was reco'd to me for reliabilty and ease of use, but really, i dont think its that great....any ideas on how to tell *which* yellow is the right one?

still no sign of the shrimp, I hope he reappears soon.

as for CO2: when i checked, there were ZERO bubbles coming out. water again went up the airline. I lifted the DIY bottle and put it on the tank, but it is sitting there precariously. i'm getting pretty fed up at all of this. If i hadnt removed the original Hagen airline, I would at least be getting a bubble every 30 seconds. now, nada. I dunno what to do, other than go pressurized or put the hagen back on (which I will probably do tomorrow)

thanks for all the help.

[anonapersona]

You need to develop patience with this hobby! A year from now, you won't even remember all these issues.

If the CO2 is not bubbling it is either leaking or dead. I suspect leaking. Get a bucket of water and submerge the bottle, watch for 5 minutes or so for any leaks. What sort of airline are you using in the DIY bottle? Regular line leaks badly, silicone works a lot better. The CO2 resistant line with the Hagen is probably better than both, but I'm not certain, the Hagen line is so much shorter because of the hanging bottle, it probably doesn't matter much.

At this point, I suggest that you hook up the Hagen system while you play with the DIY.

A bigger issue is the KH... call the water company and ask about the KH, 1 degree is 17.9 ppm as I recall. If it is that low, you MUST get the KH up before you get the CO2 going.

Nitrites, eh? So the tank is new and still cycling? The shrimp may have climbed out.

As for pressurized, it is not the holy grail that you think, leaks will kill you there too and if your KH is 0, you have to fix that first anyhow. You must add baking soda, for a quick fix, or coral for a slower, less easy to measure fix. I don't have the numbers, search here or at Aquabotanic or the Planted Tank sites for that.

You can handle a 20 gallon with the Hagen just fine, hook it back up and remember to tighten one more 1/4 turn after you think it is tight.

[nanahachi]

Update:

After finding a bit of patience, and a chill pill, I've returned to futzing around with my CO2 setup, and still have some problems.


My Tank =
* 20g long freshwater planted tank
* 5 white clouds, 3 amano shrimp (another just died, right after molting....??? :confused: )
* small to moderate amount of plants, incl. a bunch of anunbias nana, a rejeuvenating amazon sword, a green onion like plant...
* Black Beauty gravel (fine gravel substrate - no onyx sand, flourite)
I dont have any level #s handy. I can post tonight.

To recap the events up til now:
I started using the Hagen CO2 system, but when I became unhappy with the few number of bubbles it was putting out (1 / 30 secs) I tried hooking up a 2 liter bottle with jello and yeast instead of the Hagen and had a few probs (see above :p). Basically, I found that the DIY bottle was not putting out enough CO2, and that water kept creeping into the airline, no matter what I tried. Thus, I went back to the Hagen. I have been getting consistent results with it, although not optimal (only 1 bubble per 30 secs). I am going to change the Hagen's mixture tonight to the second set of packets. I will wait to see if i get more bubble per min, as anonpersona suggested I would with the second mix. I really would like to have more than 1 bubble / 20-30 secs.

However, yesterday, when cleaning my tank and changing the water, I had to unplug the airline from the yeast container, and I blew through the tube to dislodge something stuck at the other end. the result: the airline filled with water, up to where the line exits the tank. It is still filled with water, but I hope that eventually the CO2 from the yeast will push the water back out.

As for my Jello Bottle:
I currently do have an airline running from the DIY 2 jello liter running into the tank, but no bubbles are coming out at this point. It is not attached to a diffuser. Up til now, I somehow missed anaonpersona's last post, so I will try the suggestions he posted. However, I somewhat gave up on the 2 liter, so the airline is just wedged behind my filter's intake pipe, with nothing attached at the end. I was hoping to have both the Hagen and the DIY run into the Hagen step diffuser, but anonpersona stated that connecting both might not be a good idea due to differing air pressures (see that thread above). Should I just ditch the 2 liter bottle at this point? is there a way to have it run in conjunction with the Hagen cannister into the Hagen diffuser?

so that's my deal. I will try to take my levels tonight, to provide some specifics. Last night I did a 33% water change, and dosed most of the recommended ferts (i still need to track down spectracide, No-salt, and something else that I'm forgetting...)


Thanks for reading. any/all comments are welcome.

[Dabbler II]

All you have to do is make sure there is no blockage in the co2 line. It takes the same amount of pressure to blow the water out of the line as it does to get the co2 down to the hagen ladder (reactor). The further or deeper the end of the hose is to the bottom of the tank, the more pressure is required to get the gas to the end. It works on the same idea as if you fill a 45 gal drum with water and put a tap in the middle and on the bottom of the drum you will get more pressure out of the bottom tap than the middle tap. when you try to get co2 to the bottom of your tank you have to put more pressure into the line to overcome the water pressure. I hope this is clear. Also it took us a few times to get our hagen going properly (1st one didn't work, second one worked great , 3 didn't work as good as second time and now we are going on the 4th :D ) good luck

[anonapersona]

I still want to know about your KH.

My AP test goes to blue on the first drop, then more blue, and more blue, and more blue then it starts getting blue-green, then suddenly it is yellow. In 9 drops.

If yours goes yellow in the first and stays yellow, I thnk you might have ZERO KH.

You REALLY, REALLY need to know what your KH is before you go adding CO2 to this tank. (Having the CO2 refuse to bubble might be a GOOD thing)

I never saw your pH numbers, you ARE testing aren't you??