German Rams - are they hardy (enough)?

[nanahachi]

I did a search for "German Rams," and read every post, and am now concerned that the fish i was planning to buy, will not be the best purchase.

I was originally planning on picking up some Bolivians, but when I stopped by the LFS, I was told that they had some Germans which just came in and will be out of quaranteen next week. I saw how gorgeous they were, and decided to wait.

Now, however, after reading that some people had experiences that Germans are less hardy, and some die after taking them home from the LFS, I'm having second thoughts. I dont want to spend $20 a fish, only to have them die on me.

Can we dispel any false rumors, or set the record straight?

My info"
*Right now I have a freshwater 20 g long tank, which has been going since May 3, that I cycled with 5 white clouds, which are still healthy and in the tank.
* The tank is moderately planted, I am running DIY CO2, and will soon have a pressurized system
* I also just picked up 5 Amano shrimp, which are busily cleaning my tank, and hope to pick up 5 more soon.
* I dont plant on having that many fish in my tank, just the 5 white clouds, the shrimp, and maybe 1 or 2 pairs of Cichlids. I have 2 cave areas for fish to hide in, right now, and can make more
* pH has been around 6.8 to 7.0; my nitrites are under 1.6 (harmless according to the LFS), but my hardness is pretty low, which I will test and try to remedy today.
* I have a 65w comp. flor. light on my 20 g. tank

I am willing to buy any Cichlids that will be OK in my small tank, but I'm especially drawn towards the gorgeous German Rams.

Thanks for your help.

[optix]

Rams enjoy soft water around 5 DH and ph around 6.5-7.5 if you meet those standards and keep the water clean you should have no problem at all out of them. Tank raised are more hardy than wild caught, that may be the topics you were reading about.

[Xeider]

You will probably be ok. I would check with the LFS to see what kinds of water parameters the fish are currently in and compare those to your own. That your LFS is quaranteen these fish, should give you an opportunity to see how they are doing (especially if the your water parameters are similar to the store, though most likely the store is running RO). I would still give them a try. With moderate planting, caves and a few dither fish, they should be fine. Watch your CO2 to make sure it doesn't cause any drastic change to your water parameters.

[Z Man]

First off, $20 each is an outrageous price for Blue Rams. You should get a young pair for that price. Second, I would like to suggest that you look into Apistogramma cacatuoides as a good starter dwarf cichlid. They can adapt to most any water conditions and breed in it as well. They are also very good looking and more active than the Rams. If you local store can not supply then I suggest visiting Aquabid or contacting me privately for other people who sell them.

[Xeider]

Z man, how common are the Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma cacatuoides)? I have yet to see one (though I really have only been to 3 LFS not including Wal-mart and Petsmart). Is it something that many LFS would be able to order through their wholesalers? I had read that they are very hard to keep and for advanced fish keepers only (and then a different article stating the exact opposite). It sounds like you have personal experience with these fish, and I am wondering what your experience has been.

Edit: while looking for more info on the Apistogramma cacatuoides I again saw one of the articles stating Apistogramma cacatuoides being a beginner dwarf by a Don 'Z-Man' Zilliox (previously I had only seen the Don Zilliox, and didn't make the connection). I am going to stop by my LFS and see if they can get any of these in... now I just need to figure if they will work with the other fish in my 20...

[Z Man]

A. cacatuoides or A. agassizi are two of the more available Apisto's in many stores. Either would be fine. On the east coast there are many mail order/breeders who would be able to help you. Try mgallade@hotmail.com

[Deb2]

German rams really aren't hardy, they are sensitive fish. Remember they need excellent water quality and if you are one to put off water changes these are not the fish for you. Your pH sounds good, hopefully your water is soft since you want a pair. They have been kept in hard water but rearing fry in hard water is a challenge at best. If you need to medicate the tank you are better off using 1/2 dose for twice the time or you rish loosing the rams. I find both the A. agasizzi and A. cacatuoides to be hardier. I do find that the rams are out in the open more than the apistos contrary to Zmans experience. Caves and plants are good. Rams are also a naturally short lived fish, only about 2 years.
Also be careful to buy only healthy fish. It is very hard to find quality blue rams or german rams, or golds for that matter.
Bolivian rams are very hardy and are quite beautiful themselves.

[Z Man]

Deb, I may have worded my statement the wrong way. Rams are not usually as active or out in the open as much as most of the Apistogramma species. I have both and the Apisto's show themselves most of the time unless breeding.

[valerie]

personally i would wait a few more months untill your tank is done cycling and matured a bit. Dwarf cichlids aren't a god fish to add to a new tank.

As for rams, 204 is a lot. I only payed 8$ and that is canadian. It also depends if you get good stock.Some rams die easily and are very sensitive. My rams on teh other hand seem to be quite hardy, they live in ph 7.8 kh8 gh11 and are doing great. It depends on the source of rams.

I was going to get some Apisto. caucatuoides but decided against it for my tank since i have a 15gal and its best to keep more females to 1 male.I didn't feel i had enough room to do that. They will be a dwarf i'd consider buying down the road.

Good luck with your tank. but i wouldn't add anythign untill your nitrite gets down. 1.6 is way too high.

[jimbo]

If your LFS is telling you less than 1.6 nitrites is harmless, he could be right about that. But did he ask or tell you how much less
There should be no nitrites in your tank at all.( or at least less than .2)

I would suggest you better find a new LFS.

Jimmy

[wayne]

Got to agree with jimbo re nitrites. I've found pretty well all dwarfs are sensitive to poor water conditions and any nitrite is definitely poor. Rams are better used to the conditions in a well maintained tank that's been running for a while and has stbilised (as are many apistos).
Beware injecting CO2 into very softwater tanks, you might get some big jumps in your pH and kH, unless youve been doingit for a while and got it stable.

[nanahachi]

thanks so much for all of your comments!!

Tonight I will retest my tank, for pH, KH, nitrites, and amonia (my only test kits)

I dont mind doing weekly water changes. Its getting to be a habit now.

As for the Rams...I think I might wait, based on your advice. I do want my nitrites to disappear, and would hate to kill $20 fish (and yes, that does seem like a lot!!)

As for my LFS, I am getting pretty sick of them. They are close by, and do give me freebies from time to time, but the staff's knowledge is beginning to really show limitations.

As for CO2: as I've been stating in my aquatic plants thread (HERE) (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12125) I think I may move to pressurized pretty soon. I just need to make sure I can handle the costs (~$200 with tank, regulator, reactor...shpping, tax...). DIY just isnt a sure enough thing for me, I want to be able to have complete control.

So, thanks to everyone here for giving me some consensus on my tank. I think I will get some Bolivians, but will wait another month perhaps(?)

please keep the info coming!!!

[Deb2]

Bolivian rams are really rather hardy, much hardier than any other ram and the apistos (although the 2 mentioned are more hardy than others). Once your nitrites are down to 0 you could get Bolivian rams. $20.00 is way too much to pay for any rams, they go for about $8.00 around here.