How Important is GH and KH for Africans?

[dcallen]

Hi,

What should the GH and KH be at in an African Cichlid tank? Also how sensitive are the fish to these parameters? Can the fish get sick or even die if the GH and KH is too high or too low? As always thanks for the help.



Also I just did my weekly water change of 30% and some of the fish are rubbing themselves against the rock like they are scratching or trying to get something off of them. They have done this in the past so I'm not overly concerned about it at this point, otherwise the fish look great and they are eating.

[optix]

im not sure about actual degrees but I know they like it hard :p (no pun intended)about 10 DH if not harder as far as the scratching that is sign of parasites usually.

[valerie]

they like hard water with a high ph but they aren't too sensitive so as long as your parameters aren't super soft and low ph you should be fine. Mine are ph 7.8 kh8 gh11 and they are doing great. The ph for africans ranges from 7.8-8.5 so as long as the water is hard it is ok.

As for scratching after a water change could be the amount of water you are changing, although 30% isn't too big. Or it could be the wate conditioner you are using. Or the temp of the water you are replacing is different.

If it is only right after a water chagne and it goes awa quickly i wouldnt' worry, mine have done this before too.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

my africans are also scraching not 1 sign of ich(white dots etc)the only obvious thing is the rubbing against the rocks and decor.I will try ich treatment and ill see how that goes.

[jimbo]

When I first started with Malawi cichlids (6 years ago) I used to keep them in plain tap water.
PH 8.3, kH 5 and GH 9. After reading an article about the water conditions they should require, kH and GH both 11/14, I’ve raised only the kH from 5 to 9 which took me 4 days to get there (1 degree each day), and actually they all ‘seem’ to ‘feel’ better, more at ease so to speak. I’ve kept on doing this for about one year. When I stopped adding kH+ nothing really changed much in their behaviour (for as far I could see) and they’re doing just fine ever since.

As for the scratching, partially it seems to be part of their natural behaviour; even in the wild they seem to do that according some people amongst whom, Ad Konings. Excessive scratching however, could be a sign of too many bacteria/parasites on/in their slime coat. Adding some salt would help them changing their slime coat more quickly.
In my tanks they’re scratching too, not excessively though. I think that’s because my water changes are pretty heavy. During the time I’m siphoning all the dirt from the substrate (sand), fresh water is flowing into the tank. (same temp) This takes 30 minutes or so. Then I stop adding fresh water to the tank and remove 40% of its contents. After that I resume adding fresh water, with the hose removing water still hanging in the tank. Filling up the tank like this takes about 1 hour for my 180. I used to perform my water changes once a week. Now I'm changing the water every Monday, Saturday and Wednesday (in that order)
Not just to avoid scratching but for several reasons. I’m a pretty conservative when it comes to keeping cichlids, better save than sorry. I guess there is no such thing as too much fresh water in a tank.

Jimmy

[Mystroe_TheMyst]

Hmmm I guess I should read up on GH and KH cause i don't have any clue what they are, cause someone please post a link perhaps?

[JSchmidt]

First of all, it's important to distinguish between scratching and flashing. Scratching is rubbing against the rocks, flashing is making little sharp movements around particular rocks to demonstrate territory. (Flashing is sometimes accompanied by flaring, a mating behavior where the fish flares out its fins and shakes and shivers in place.)

My mbuna often flash after a water change. It seems to make them frisky. I take it as a good sign.

If they are scratching, I'd expect them to do so all the time, not just after a water change.

RE: water parameters, I think it is possible to keep african cichlids in water that is softer and/or more acidic than their native waters. Mine tend to breed more readily (and seem more vibrant and active) when kept in water with high pH, KH and GH. I experimented with several tanks and slowly dropped those parameters to near what our tap water is (it's still pretty basic, but not very hard), and breeding decreased and the fish didn't look as robust. I've gone back to supplementing the water and the fish look better.

Given the relative ease and low cost of increasing KH & GH, I think it's well worth it.

HTH,
Jim

[jimbo]

Just scroll down to the middle of this article, that's where the GH, KH part is.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/gh_kh_ph.php

Jimmy

[Mystroe_TheMyst]

Thanks, I sorta knew what it was, just didn't know that GH stood for general hardness, I thought i was missing out on somthing vital that i didn't know...thanks again

[dcallen]

Thanks for all your replies, and for the link to that article which by the way is a big help to me in better understanding things. The fish primarily do this after a water change. I have seen a few of them do it at other times but certainly not excessively. I do add a Cichlid mixture from Seachem to the new water I put in the tank during the water change in an attempt to replicate their natural water conditions better but I have not added sea salt as yet. Should I add salt to the tank periodically as a preventative? I'm doing my best to insure that the fish are taken care of to the best of my ability so I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make it happen.


Thanks again...

[jimbo]

Do you know your tap-water parameters, PH KH and GH?
Not straight from the tap but after 24 hours sitting in a bucket with an air-stone (and air-pump of course) in it.

[dcallen]

Jimbo,

Nope. I have not checked this as yet, I guess I need to buy a cheap pump and airstone and put the water to the test. It would be good to know what my natural water parameters are. Would the water need to be dechlorinated etc. before the test?


Thanks...

[Faramir]

After 24 hours in the bucket it would be dechlorinated.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by Faramir
After 24 hours in the bucket it would be dechlorinated.

Unless the water supply has chloramines rather than chlorine, in which case a dechlorinator is necessary.

Jim

[dcallen]

Thanks guys. I'll check with my water department and find out how they treat the water, then I'll run the test.

[jimbo]

Make sure to use a plastic bucket, not a metal or somthing.

[dcallen]

Jimbo,

Thanks for the tip. I have quite a few Home Depot plastic buckets.


:D

[Tiger15]

Here are the parameters for the three lakes I compiled from several sources:

Victoria 2-8KH 7.1-9.0pH 98-145cond
Malawi 6-8KH 7.7-8.6pH 6-10GH 210-235Cond
Tang 16-19KH 8.6-9.2pH 11-17GH 606-620Cond

As for me, I don't add salt or buffer, only rely on dolomite substrate to raise the hardness. I do very large water change, about 75%, every two weeks and the steady water parameters are around 12 GH, 4-5 KH, 7.4 pH and 230 conductivity. So my tank parameters are pretty much in line with Lake Malawi except for lower pH. I used to add salt and found my fish scratched a lot after water change and I stopped doing it altogether. Many people don't realize that by adding buffer salt they end up raising GH and KH to adnormally high range even though the pH is closer to the lake range. It is debatable on whehter pH matching or hardness matching is more important.

Also, some cichlid experts suspect that the fine from crushed coral will irrigate the gills and cause scratching. I found that crushed coral is too hard to maintain because they are too light and get finer with time so that it get siphoned off easily. I have replaced crushed coral with dolomite gravel years ago and along with stopping to add salt, my fish have stopped scratching . I suspect that adding salt can lead to parameters swing that can cause more irritation than benefit.

[dcallen]

Thanks for the detailed info Tiger15. I don't know exactly what the KH and GH is at right now, but I do know that the last time I checked them, I remember them being really high, with the pH being around 8.0. I believe you are correct in that by my adding the Cichlid buffer it has raised the GH and KH to levels that are really too high. I think I'll skip adding it to my next water change and then see what the GH and KH readings are at, hopefully they will be decreased a bit.


Thanks again...

[JSchmidt]

If you're going to change your water parameters, just be sure to do it gradually...

Here's more data on the chemical compositions of the Rift Lakes:

http://malawicichlids.com/mw01011.htm

HTH,

Jim

[Harry Tolen]

dcallen: what kind of "Africans" are you keeping, anway? Knowing that would help us make more specific recommendations, and you can see from the stats posted above that the different Rift Lakes have significantly different parameters.

I would not wait to check your tapwater before deciding what to do, by the way. Test the water from the tank. Tetra makes a test kit that includes tests for GH, KH, pH, ammonia, and nitrites, availale from the on-line retailers for about $15, that will do quite nicely.

Once you get those results, please post them here.

Incidentally, I would continue to add the buffers and Cichlid salts you have been using; as long as you are only dosing for the volume of water you replace during changes, you will not create a significant problem. Your pH being at 8.0 is an indication that you are not having a problem; that is a good number for Malawi and actually too low for Tanganyikans.

I should mention two other things: if you are adding only Cichlid salts, you are not significantly buffering the water. For that you need to use the separate buffering product. And sea salt is not a good thing to add to Rift Lake tanks, as their water does not naturally contain high amounts of sodium chloride.

[dcallen]

Harry,

Thanks for the advice. I will take some readings and post them to this thread. As far as fish go I have male Peacocks and one male Yellow Lab in the tank at the moment. I have 8 fish total in the 70 gallon tank.



Thanks...