Looking for advice on s/w tank...

[SamsonNY]

Hey guys,

I'm considering making my 400 gallon into s/w.

My personal experience with s/w is pretty much nill..

Please help:

My current 400 with the w/d (80 gallon total w/28 gal. bioballs) and the canister (mechanical filtration only).
Auto water changer obviously shut-off.
Lighting remaining the same.
U.V. remains.
Etc.


Questions my searches haven't been able to answer:
1.- Protein skimmer (preferably on sump).
Some yes and some say no. What's the real deal?
2.- Crushed coral substrate is a taboo. That's fine. I want to stick with my white sand. Any problems with that?
3.- Live rock. EVERYONE says that's a plus. But, honestly, I'm picturing a tank with corals (not live) and white sand and fish. That's it. (not my current fake corals). Is that feasible?
4.- Regarding corals and my ph: Will corals be enough to raise my Ph into the mid 8 range (currently sits in the low 7 range)? Just like my current set-up, I prefer to not use chemicals to alter the water parameters.


What else? Oh yes, fish.
I'd like:
1.- Clown trigger (I read somewhere to add him LAST and make sure he's the smallest; okay)
2.- DogFace Puffer
3.- Lionfish
4.- Snowflake eel

There was a post somewhere that the trigger and lion might be a problem while others have that combo with no major problems. Okay, but my underlying question is: Will these guys make an entertaining (ACTIVE) tank?

Feeding:
Shrimp and squid pieces (yes?)

What am I missing? Please criticize at will so that IF I go with s/w, I want to cover all of the bases first.

THANK YOU!!!

Richard.

[OrionGirl]

Are you kicking the rays to the curb?

1--Protien skimmer. Yeah, opinions are mixed. They defintely help maintain better water conditions. If you're not keeping a reef, this is not as critical. For a tank that big, you are talking some serious money to get one large enough. I'd forgo it, personally, since that volume of water will be resistant to major shifts anyway, and with a light stocking load, you won't have a problem, IMO.

2--Sand is better.

3--Live rock is the best filtration you can get. 'Coral' usually means the living animal, not the same thing at all as a chunk of rock, or the coral skeletons sold for decoration. The w/d that you have should be emptied of the bio balls, and used as a sump only. The live rock and the sand will be the best filtration you can have. You'll need a modified clean up (snails, crabs, shrimp, stars and worms) since you want aggressive fish, but the rock and sand will still do better service than anything else.

4--Any decorative coral skeletons will help raise the pH, as will the salt mix. Don't think you will EVER hear anyone in the SW section advise the use of chemicals to bring pH up. You could try mixing a small batch of SW, see where it brings your parameters to.

For you fish choices: The puffer will probably become a quick favorite. These guys are like puppies--they will beg, and follow you around, and generally be pleasing. The lion will swim around some, more in a larger tank, but still, don't expect it to be incredibly active. They are lurker predators, and those pretty fins don't make them champion swimmers. Strong, yes, but not fast. The eel you won't see often, but having lots of rock work will make it more comfortable, and more sociable. When we had a cave for ours, he only came out for feeding. Now that there's a huge jumble of rock, he's constantly gaping out of some place. With enough rock, you could easily support 2-3 eels, if you're interested.

The big toss up will be the trigger. Clowns are gorgeous, and with this big a tank, you should be safe, but keep in mind: clowns are considered one of the most aggressive triggers available, and triggers in general are considered very aggressive fish. The clown will limit you to no live corals. It may bully and harrass the lion and the puffer. It might go beserk one night and kill anything that is in with it. You shouldn't trust your own fingers with it, especially as an adult.

For feeding--shrimp, mussels, squid, small chunks of fish. The shelled critters will be important for the puffer and trigger--the puffer will have to eat crunchies to help keep it's beak trim. Without shells to munch, their beak will overgrow and prevent them from eating.

Should be awesome--I'd love to see pics!

[kreblak]

For a 400 gallon tank, a protein skimmer is going to be a big help in maintaining your water quality. On the sump or otherwise, it will really help you keep your levels of dissolved nutrients in the water down.

You can use crushed coral if you wish. It helps your saltwater's buffering capacity by adding calcium ions to the water. I use crushed coral and sand, but that's just my preference.

Live rock is GOOD for tank health and water quality. It is extremely porous, so it provides plenty of attachment space for your biofilter, it provides fish with hiding places that they desperately need in order to feel secure, and it often contains beneficial macroalgaes or other hitchhikers that are great for your tank's ecosystem. Do you have to have LR? No, but it sure makes a positive difference if you do have it.

Regarding PH, dead corals aren't going to alter it any. Saltwater usually ranges from 8.0 to 8.4 PH (someone yell at me if I'm wrong there) The only real changes you chould experience in PH are due to nitrogen cycle activity.

[SamsonNY]

Thank you both for the replies. Very informative.
I've got a lot of things to consider here.

I didn't want to seem like an expert (which I'm not) regarding the chemicals. Regarding f/w rays, chemicals are usually a last resort and stable (but off, IE: ph) is better than fluctuation and chemicals. BUT, my mistake here is that I'm basing my f/w knowledge and trying to translate it to s/w. :p

kreblak,
My only disagreement is regarding the dead coral as I do believe they will raise the Ph somewhat. How much; I don't know?

OrionGirl,
I hear ya regarding the bioballs. WebMedia has VERY informative articles and Q and A sessions. The main theme there is dumping the bioballs and going with live rock, etc. filtration.
I guess I'm being stubborn here since I still prefer to stick to the "old fashioned" method here.

Anyway.... Thank you both again.

:cool:

[OrionGirl]

I hear ya'! the transition from FW to SW requires a great deal of 'unlearning!'

Decorative dead coral will raise the pH. Crushed coral = decorative dead coral after being pounded by waves and hammers. The exact amount of increase will be based on the GH and specifically the KH of the water to begin with. All salt mixes contain buffers to raise the pH as well. My water sits about 7.2 after aerating from the tap, but hangs steady at 8.3 after adding the salt mix.

Truthfully, bio balls in your w/d will work the same in SW--the problem is when solids get into the bio balls. Trapped, they begin to decay, resulting in rising ammonia/nitrites/nitrate. The ammonia and nitrites are not a big deal--the bacteria can easily cope with a little spike. Nitrates are slower to be broken down, so the increase here isn't not as easily addressed bacterially, meaning water changes or macro algaes are the only way to remove them. If you want to setup a sump, you could easily stuff it full of live rock, and put the clean up crew here as well--protecting them from the attentions of the trigger and eel.

The main tank will have to have more than just some decorative corals--the hiding places for the fish are very important--especially the eel. Without an adequate home, they tend to go wandering, and end up mummified behind the entertainment unit.

[kreblak]

Oops. :eek: I though the only effect dead coral had was to increase the buffering capacity of seawater. I didn't realize that it would actually raise the PH. Live and learn I suppose.

[SamsonNY]

OrionGirl,
Thanks Again! You're a true asset on this forum. :cool:

I hear ya regarding the eel. I have a fire eel right now who is a true escape artist. (But, he's never gotten out of the 400; I've got the tank so tight that you couldn't squeeze a quarter into it. :p )

Richard
:)

[SamsonNY]

kreblak,
No problem. ;)

[kreblak]

Every so often I write something here that just gets totally contradicted. That's when people like Oriongirl, Corax, Boogiechillin, Reefscape, Fish Whisperer, Mogurnda and Voodoochild chime in and clean up my dirt. That's what is great about these boards, the facts usually make themselves known quickly.

[OrionGirl]

You're not actually wrong--the coral will stabilize KH with carbon, and when this happens, the resulting calcium ions (and I forget if they increase or decrease) also cause a pH shift. The decorative stuff makes it happen, just a bit more slowly than crushed coral, since as with so much in this hobby, surface area matters. So, it's not an either/or with coral--you increase the KH, and increase the pH.

And that's the best part of being here--I certainly never really 'got' this stuff when I was in HS chem. Now, at least, it's starting to make sense.

[kreblak]

Yeah, things just make more sense when they have a real world application. I don't think I have ever learned so much as in the thread about shrimp molting over in General Marine a few weeks ago. The sad thing is, there is STILL no consensus as to iodine's role in the molt process, despite some very intelligent people's best efforts.

[OrionGirl]

:D Yeah--I brought the iodine issue up elsewhere, and everyone threw out the same anecdotal advice.

SamsonNY--so what is happening to the rays and aros?

[SamsonNY]

One of the factors I'm considering. ;)

[Ray Pollett]

If you are changing to a SW tank; 2 good books are:

"The Consceintious Marine Aquarist" By Robert Fenner

And

"Natural Reef Aquariums" by John Tullock

EELs can be escape artist. The Marine ones do seem to be better at it than the FW ones. I've seen them go thru some VERY SMALL opennings.

WITH a good live sand bed ( the best of the natural filters ) and Live Rock; get rid of the Bio-Balls. They may actually cause the Live Sand(LS) and Live Rock (LR) not to work as well in filtration.

kreblak,

"That's what is great about these boards, the facts usually make themselves known quickly."

I disagree, this hobby is full of myths that just keep getting told; repeated over and over; as if that makes them correct; including on this board.

Ray

[OrionGirl]

No apologies for not being perfect in advice. Everyone makes mistakes, and has their own opinions, usually based on experience but not always right. At least with a group of people, the odds of an error being identified and corrected are much higher than if your running solo, or taking the advice of just one person.

Rather than dogging people, stating your opinion and subtantiating it would be much more helpful. I appreciate it when I am politely corrected, and readily admit when I am wrong or uncertain, as will most people here.

[Ray Pollett]

Oniongirl,
"Rather than dogging people, stating your opinion and subtantiating it would be much more helpful."

I do not dog people. I do substantiate what I say or use "IMO"

"I appreciate it when I am politely corrected, and readily admit when I am wrong or uncertain, as will most people here."

Actual that is not what I've seen on this board. I've seen people stubbornly continue to put forward the same bad information time and time again.

Secondly show me where I corrected you in this thread. Personally I found your post to me in this thread, to be everything you Claim I did,

Ray

[OrionGirl]

Not saying you addressed me--I am a mod, and as such try to keep the mood polite for everyone. Your comment to kreblak seemed a bit strong--implying that people were deliberately providing bad advice in this thread.

[SamsonNY]

First off, thank you to everyone for all of the helpful advice.
But, let's stay cool and have fun while we (actually me) are learning. This is a hobby and like all hobbies, they're meant to be enjoyed. We come here to share our thoughts and knowledge and learn about this hobby. :cool:


Now, let me show you my further lack of knowledge here (it's my way of stating my stubbornness. :p )

Deep sand bed: If they're deep enough and don't get stirred up so that O2 doesn't go down there, I've read that they can become anaerobic (sp?) factories to take care of nitrates. That's good.
Live sand bed: I've read all of the "critters" in them will take care of fish waste. That's great.

BUT, my set-up has the return water coming in from one bulkhead fitting at the bottom center (sort of) of the tank which then has a Y and 2 nozzle jets. I currently have them pointed parallel to the sand layer so that they push all of the stingray "crap" around the front corners and to the back so that the pvc pipes pick them up and send them to my w/d. (It works very well; I never vacuum the tank!)
However, it also causes the front of the tank (in front of the jets) to have two long "runways" where the sand gets pushed away. So, I have a problem here. Though the live sand bed (I guess) would eat the debris, I guess I could point the jets further upward. Not sure on this one.

Deep sand bed: My tank is 24" high. I really don't want 4" (minimum; there still seems to be a debate on how thick it should be) of sand leaving 20" of viewing area (which is less since the canopy overhangs the front by about an inch).

My w/d is a beast: the bioball towers (2) are situated on either end and they extend upwards from the sump (they go much higher than the top rim of the sump). To keep the current set-up with the drain lines and bulkhead fittings, I have to keep the towers. Removing them or accessing anything under them (in the sump area; but not the central sump section) would be too difficult.

Long story short (too late, I know, sorry... :p ), I will keep the bioballs and stick with the old-fashioned method. I will be adding the protein skimmer (Red Sea Berlin Turbo XL).
I won't go with a deep sand bed.
BUT, can I have a 2" live sand bed? And, (don't remember where I read this), won't predatory fish pick-off the little critters?


Sorry for the long post. I hope you made it this far... :)

[mogurnda]

Not sure if I'm one of those perpetuating myths, but I do try to examine my beliefs.
In the long term, coral skeletons and crushed coral will not release much Ca or CO3, both because the high pH of a marine tank is not conducive, and because they will be covered with biofilms over time. Deep in a sand bed there will be some breakdown of the aragonite resulting in *some*help with your Ca and alkalinity.
Do FO people not have to add anything to their FO tanks to maintain alkalinity? My inverts suck down Ca like there's no tomorrow, so I have to use substantial amounts of ESV b-ionic to keep Ca and alkalinity up.

Edit: Fenner's and Tullock's books are excellent. I would read both cover to cover, before starting. If you have to pick one, and you are doing FO, CMA is clear and accurate.

[Ray Pollett]

Oniongirl and Mogurnda,

I was not talking about anyone in particlar. I was talking about the hobby in general. And it does occur on this board and on others as well. Myths get in this hobby a lot; and they just keep circulating. They are repeated over and over. They are in the books. They drive me crazy because I know I've past some of them on with out knowing better. I've been keeping aquatic animals since the 50's and still learn new stuff almost daily. I also learn almost daily stuff that was written in stone a couple of years ago is incorrect. It's not personal.

Ray

[Ray Pollett]

Oniongirl,

"Your comment to kreblak seemed a bit strong--implying that people were deliberately providing bad advice in this thread."

That was not my intent. I am sorry it came over that way. I hate myths in this hobby. They cost people money and can kill animals. They take away possiblities and different ways of doing something. Sometimes I am a little too passionate about it.

Ray

[Ray Pollett]

SamsonNY,

"BUT, my set-up has the return water coming in from one bulkhead fitting at the bottom center (sort of) of the tank which then has a Y and 2 nozzle jets. I currently have them pointed parallel to the sand layer so that they push all of the stingray "crap" around the front corners and to the back so that the pvc pipes pick them up and send them to my w/d. (It works very well; I never vacuum the tank!)
However, it also causes the front of the tank (in front of the jets) to have two long "runways" where the sand gets pushed away. So, I have a problem here. Though the live sand bed (I guess) would eat the debris, I guess I could point the jets further upward. Not sure on this one."

That should not be a problem in your tank. It is large enough that they should be plenty of sandbed .

"Deep sand bed: My tank is 24" high. I really don't want 4" (minimum; there still seems to be a debate on how thick it should be) of sand leaving 20" of viewing area (which is less since the canopy overhangs the front by about an inch). "

There is a debate on sand bed depth. I have not found a single study that actually shows what depth is optimal or even what depth works. I've heard of tanks with only a 3" depth working fine. With your size tank; you could try a 4-5 inch depth in back and a 2 inch depth in front. If it does not work you could add more latter if you wish.

"My w/d is a beast: the bioball towers (2) are situated on either end and they extend upwards from the sump (they go much higher than the top rim of the sump). To keep the current set-up with the drain lines and bulkhead fittings, I have to keep the towers. Removing them or accessing anything under them (in the sump area; but not the central sump section) would be too difficult. "

People ran tanks with bio-balls for years. Some very attracctive and healthy tanks. You have to remember there are a lot of ways to do reef tanks. Some people have success doing it one way while for others the same way is a disasster. I still have one very healthy tank that uses an UGF.

"Long story short (too late, I know, sorry... ), I will keep the bioballs and stick with the old-fashioned method. I will be adding the protein skimmer (Red Sea Berlin Turbo XL).
I won't go with a deep sand bed.
BUT, can I have a 2" live sand bed? And, (don't remember where I read this), won't predatory fish pick-off the little critters?"

Of course you can. Many a nice tank has 2 inches of sand and bio-balls. Yes, predotory fish will eat your clean up crew and detrivores. We try too get the detrivores going in large numbers before we add the fish. And both have to be replenished in some tanks on a regular bases.

Ray

[SamsonNY]

Very informative.

Thank you, Ray.

:)

[Sting]

I know what you mean about myths- and I agree there are still a ton that float around, that won't de solved for years to come! But out of all the places you can go to get the best information- I have to say IMO that the net is at the absolute top. I read somewhere on RC a statement I found very true. It talked about LFS workers only desiring your money, while they want to provide you with good information on starting your new tank, they will take advantage of your ignorance and try to make the best of your business. They are a business, that's how all businesses run- on money- Without that and they have and nothing! But here, on the boards or over the net- nobody is getting paid for advice, no one wants your money, they just want to share their experiences with eachother to leanr from them. A good example of this is how my LFS workers tried to tell me my Silica Based sand would cause diatomoascious algae, and that I should buy all these phosphate sponges ect ect. Maybe it was their own ignorance that lead them to give me that advice, or maybe they actually believe in that myth- Bottom line, I've heard LFS workers say it, "Don't believe what the net tells you-" What!? Don't believe what the net tells you because they'll run us out of business, because they know the real way to keep a tank - that's what they know, but don't want you to know. I say a guy in my LFS just the other day sell a man over 7 fish all at one time! He got a Hippo Tang, Clowns, a Royal Gramma, and a Niger Trigger plus more! Did the LFS guy try and stop him? Nah..."Good luck with the reef! No refunds!" Then he gives him the evil glare ;).

Ah, it all boils down to the whole Matrix deal...control. LOL- nah it's not that deep. But hey, that's why wer're here huh? To learn from eachother experiences, and dissect those common myths, and bring out the truth in them- to benefit all fish keepers alike. And heck, I have fun doing it too!

Good luck SamsonNY, I see you've chosen some different paths than most, but I'm sure it will all work out for you if you take care of your system correctly. Good luck! :)

[Sting]

I hate myths in this hobby. They cost people money and can kill animals. They take away possiblities and different ways of doing something. Sometimes I am a little too passionate about it.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to FFS's taking advantage of that!!!

[Ray Pollett]

Sting you are right about the differences of information available. I also agree the net is a much better place for correct information. I just get very passionate about it. I learn all the time here on the different forums. That's why I am on them. But they do pass on questionable and even wrong information also. I've had to apollogize on boards before because I found out info I passed on from an "Expert" was wrong.

It is funny though. The Mom & pop aquarium stores that do the best are the ones that look after the customer and his tank instead of quick sales.

Ray

[mogurnda]

I have been thinking about this thread, and realized that something that is very important doesn't get nearly enough emphasis on this board. Whenever someone starts a thread "newbie starting out," I feel like the first response should be "read, read, read." Then decide what you want, because saltwater can be anything from a simple FO tank to a high-end reef. Then start figuring out the details of equipment.

There are many sources of info, books, your lfs, and the web. They all have advantages. In the end, you will be facing a heap of opinion, and will have to take some form of action on your own. And you will face the consequences, not us.

The reason I am focusing on books, is that a good book will provide a level of detail that is unavailable from the other sources. I have seen some excellent, well thought out advice given on this site, but it still pales in comparison to what you can get from a writeup in Fenner's CMA, or a book by Martin Moe, John Tullock, and so on. They are experts, and have taken a lot of time to write the stuff down clearly and systematically.
The downside of books is they can become obslolete. Especially about equipment. That's where talking to your fellow hobbyists and surfing sites like AC, Reefs.org or Reef Central comes in.

As far as I can tell, all the reading and research I have done isn't for day-to-day operation. It's for getting a system through the hard parts, like setting up and when the system goes out of balance for some reason.

Anyway, here's a summary for those who skipped the wad of text up there: If you expect to learn all you need about setting up a marine tank from the advice here, you're asking for trouble. Not because the advice is bad, but simply because what you really need is a good understanding of the principles of captive system function. I might suggest a sticky with the books and other info that a newbie should explore before starting to ask about specifics.

[SamsonNY]

Thank you, Dave. I do understand where you're coming from.

Although I am not an expert on f/w stingrays, I have acquired quite a bit of knowledge on them and I am often asked to offer advice on them (on other boards). Please bear in mind that the f/w stingray hobby is not as saturated with information as s/w tanks (be it FO, FOWLR, etc...), and thus, not as much printed material or personal experience is available on them.

I try my best to give the novice as good advice as I can along with the clause that this is supplemental to: first a solid understanding of the high demands that are required to keep f/w rays by reading Ross' FW Rays, etc.

But, at the same time I try not to become overly excited when giving advice as I have seen others do (not here) and fall more into the preaching category. In the end, this is a hobby. Hobbies are meant to be fun (sure, they'll have their aggravations as well, but the fun and enjoyment better outweigh them!).

I do not expect to learn everything I need to know by asking questions here. I have done quite a bit of research and I'm taking everything in steps to have a proper system ready to go when the time is right. I feel fairly confident that I am ready to tackle this project (FO predator tank; possibly live sand but no live rock; current filtration set-up stays with the addition of the protein skimmer). And, the oddball questions that I seek answers to might still be posted here. I listen to (AND APPRECIATE) everyone's response. This board is EXTREMELY helpful.

Thanks to all.
Richard.

[mogurnda]

Richard,
This wasn't particularly directed at you. The thread started me thinking, that's all. There was a lot of back and forth discussion on this thread about what is current good practice and what is myth, and the best defence against conflicting info is a lot of knowledge.
Off the soapbox and back to enjoying the hobby.

[SamsonNY]

Not a problem at all Dave. I didn't take anything negatively and I didn't mean to put any kind of negative tone in my post, or anything like that.

I restarted this hobby a year ago (after a long time off) and I'm very glad I did. There's nothing like coming home after a long day and having a brandy while sitting in the den and watching a little piece of the underwater world right infront of your eyes.. :)

[Ray Pollett]

Dave,

I agree, that is why my first post in this thread started with 2 good books.

Ray