What fish can survive with a high nitrate level(besides damsels)?

[sbpbasme76]

Hi, Currently my tank (a 72 bow front) reads 0 for Ammonia and Nitrite but the Nitrate is very high. The level is 80-160 ppm! I have tried water changes, I have cleaned the protien skimmer collection cup and have cleaned the bottom of the tank by taking out any wastes. I also have removed the algae on the bottom of the tank and on the glass. I was wondering if their were any fish besides damsels that would be ok if introduced into a tank that has a high nitrate level! Currently their are no fish in the tank! The fish I am mostly interested in are puffers and lionfish! Thank you!

[OrionGirl]

I wouldn't put any fish in there until you get those nitrates under control. Couple things: add some macro algae, or xenia--both will suck up nitrates. Have you had your test results confirmed by another test kit?

[kreblak]

Nitrate readings can be a funny thing. Do what OG suggested and test with a second kit. If your nitrates are really that high, then you should have had an algae explosion by now.

There are several things you can do to decrease nitrates. You are already skimming and performing water changes.

1. Try feeding the current fish less often. Cutting back on feeding should cut back on dissolved organics in the water.

2. Let your algae grow. Algaes cull organics from the water for their nutrition. The more you have, the less organics in your water, and the less your nitrates should become. (Yes, I know this is an "ugly" option)

3. Cut back on the current bioload. How big is the tank, and how many fish do you have in it? If you have overstocked the tank, your nitrates are going to be out of control no matter what you do.

4. You might try a deep sand bed in your tank. There is much debate as to how much sand is effective, but 4 to 6 inches is the rule of thumb. At the bottom of the sand, there will be almost no oxygen penetration. There, an anarobic bacteria capable of breaking down nitrates into carbon dioxide gas will grow, and help bring down your nitrates levels.

5. If you are currently running a filter, try removing the media. In SW, filter media become clogged quickley, and can actually raise nitrate levels in the tank by trapping organics.

I hope these ideas help you out some. Definately post the size of your tank and its inhabitants, though, as that will help us figure out how best to get your water parameters back to pristine!

Edit: I just realized that you posted already that don't have any fish in the tank. Scratch suggestions one and three...

[sbpbasme76]

Orion Girl and Kreblack: Thank You for the suggestions! kreblak, In my original post i stated both the size (72 Bowfront) and the inhabitants (none). It was occupied by a Porcupine Puffer at one point though! But for the past 3 months it has been empty!

EDITED: I DIDNT SEE YOUR EDIT Kreblack SORRY!

Thanks for the suggestions!

[sbpbasme76]

Would adding a cleanup crew (snails, crabs and shrimp ect) help take the nitrate level down?

[OrionGirl]

Yes, but all the clean up critters I can think of won't deal with the high nitrates well--crustaceans tend to be really sensitive.

Any chance there's a body decomposing in the rock somewhere?

[Ray Pollett]

Once again I'll be the voice that disagrees on the facts.

Contratary to all the literature a Nitrate reading of 80 - 160 is not going to kill very many fish. In fact I do not know of any.

Second I've seen many tanks that have no algae problems for years with nitrates that high.

Other than maybe cleaner shrimp, I've not seen nitrates at that level affect many animals we use in clean up crews.

You have to understand; this hobby is full of bad information that is passed on as Gospel. Where it comes from I do not know. Probably goes something like this.

" I had a fish die. Must be a reason- Ah! high nitrates. I tell people high nitrates killed my fish. Some one put it in a book. Since everyone who writes a book for this hobby just restates the same info in the books they read; it is now in all the books. Now it is Gospel"

Really pretty Sad commentary on our hobby and those who write the books.

I've got a tank that nitrates are rarely below 200. Did it on purpose, to see about nitrates; after reading what the Government said inverts could take. Tank is a 125. Has Blue Damsels, three stripe damsels( which spawn in it about every 3 weeks) domino Damsel, Yellow tangs, Flame Hawkfish, neon dottybacks, Splendid dottyback, 5 Clowns of different types, Sponges, anemones (over 18 months old). 2 leathers for the 2 years, Pistol Shrimp that bred, snails, crabs, pods, Mushrooms, a couple of octopus corals, and a Kenya Tree.

The anemones have not grown as good as those in other tanks, but have cloned.

Ray

[Mandairn]

Hight Nitrates for fish would be the equivlent to use breathing smug in a big city. Is smug harmful to us .... yes but, there are people who live there whole life, but it doesn't kill them and to some it does get to them and they leave. Are high nitrate bad, YES. But fish live in it, some YES. Ray Have your tryed and angle fish? Low nitrates is more a quallity of live then a life or death situation.

Off the topic Ray how big is the shirmps over the hawk fish?

Go with what OG wrote get a nother test kit, if still high drastic time call for quick though (well maybe not).. ;) do a 50-75 water change using RO water drastic call and costly but will do the job. If your dont want to spend the money one RO, just filter your tap water with the tap water filter thing (sorry names are not coming to mind).

..gOOD lucK oN WHat WaY(s) YOu Go ANd HAve FUn...!

[sbpbasme76]

Thanks for the info and suggestions everyone! I'll definitley buy another test kit and try a larger water change! I jsut hate looking at and empty tank! Hopefully, It will be all set and ready for occupants soon!

[FISH WHISPERER]

You're not hung out to dry, Ray! ;)

For years (with a crushed coral substrate) we couldn't get nitrates to even come close to the maximum on the color charts. :eek: It was way over 200... How much? No idea, we couldn't even get a reading.

We fed so much, and had such large fish... even with a skimmer it made no difference. Water changes? Totally useless in a high-nitrate system. We couldn't even find a temporary reduction with large water changes.

I'm not sure that nitrates are harmful to fish, or in what way they would be. I'd be most interested to know, since we never had a problem, nor did any fish appear to suffer. In fact, the tank pictured on our picture slide viewer on the webpage is the one with the high nitrates. I believe Ron Shimek has stated that nitrates are harmless to fish, as well. Inverts, I'm not sure about. Our snails/crabs didn't seem affected.

Whatever the case may be, nitrates should not be a problem (meaning, there shouldn't be any high levels) in a tank with a DSB - a normally stocked tank, that is.

[wayne]

Some thoughts after reading this - Bear in mind that according to a test kit review in 'Practical Fishkeeping' and my own experience (largely admittedly w/ freshwater), nitrate test kits along with nitrite gave what was describedin print as 'surprising results' and what I would call crap results. Did not always follow trends, did not often give the correct value, hard to read colour scales, plus they didn't all measure the same thing, nitrate ion or nitrate molecule (molecule readings need to be multiplied by 4.4 to give the 'normally' referred to nitrate ion number.) Very unreliable. Plus they also referred to several tests giving false positives, fewer giving false negs.
In reality, if people don't have an electric meter I rarely trust their test results 100%, especially 0 nitrates in newly setup tanks (almost an impossibility), from new fishkeepers
Ray - do you think that nitrate shock when introducing fish to 'old' water systems is also a myth? Do you think nitrate is harmless to fish, or simply a minor irritant? What do you think are the important parameters (measurable) in defining water as good quality? My experience is mostly with softwater freshwaer fish and for them I believe nitrate is a major hassle, but in the alkaline pH of sea waer this may not be the case (as it is with nitrite, less toxic in alk.)

[kreblak]

I just rechecked my nitrate levels using an electric meter and had to pick my jaw up off the floor. On the color charts I kept coming in at about 25 ppm. The electric meter reads in excess of 350 ppm!

I can tell you this, I have had two snails die recently for no apparant reason. Perhaps the high nitrates were to blame. Or not... who knows?

I know this, though, I can grow some algae. That would be great if I had some caulerpa in the tank. Although it seems that some of the corraline on my live rock has colonized elsewhere in the tank. It is really starting to take off too! My green hair algae grows like a weed, as well. It is actually starting to outpace my cleaner shrimp's ability to consume it.

[OrionGirl]

Sorry--guess I should always explain my thinking.

I agree, high nitrates are not harmful to fish. However, they are often times symptomatic of something else, something that can't be easily tested for. If a large water change did not result in any decrease to nitrates, then something in the tank is spewing nitrates wholesale, or they are being imported with the water. Without knowing why the nitrates are high, it seems that addressing them when there are no fish to worry about is just safer. If the nitrates are the result of crushed coral, or a clogged sponge/filter, these can be remedied fairly easily and mean a fish would have been safe. If the nitrates are from something else--ie, a puffer casualty that's buried in the rock, taking that out will improve overall water quality.

I have heard from many people that invertebrates suffer when nitrates are high. Could be causitive, or just correlative, and something else that isn't not as easily detectable but accompanies high nitrates is causitive. Without knowing, I won't advise someone to add something that has a high likelihood of dying.

[Ray Pollett]

Monty,

"You're not hung out to dry, Ray! "

Thanks, I'm usually the only one.



Wayne,

"Ray - do you think that nitrate shock when introducing fish to 'old' water systems is also a myth?"

No I think you have to acclimate the same as for Salt levels and Temperature. It is that it is different and the fish has to adjust thier system.

"Do you think nitrate is harmless to fish, or simply a minor irritant?"

I believe it is harmless until you get to abserb levels. Everything can be posionness in to high of levels. Water can be poisionness in to high of levels to Humans.

" What do you think are the important parameters (measurable) in defining water as good quality?

Sal at 34-36 for most pacific animals. a little higher for Red Sea Animals. 0 ammonia and Nitrites. I really would have a hard time saying for most , I never check anything but SAlinity in my tanks. I do water changes every week or two on all of them. That should keep the water well within good parameters in my opion; unless you have life that uses a lot of calcium.

" My experience is mostly with softwater freshwaer fish and for them I believe nitrate is a major hassle, but in the alkaline pH of sea waer this may not be the case (as it is with nitrite, less toxic in alk.)"

Since I use heavily planted tanks on the freshwater side; I never even think of nitrates after the tank cycles.


Mandairn,

"Off the topic Ray how big is the shirmps over the hawk fish?"

I've found if the hawkfish (flame) is well fed; they do fine with cleaner and Coral Banded Shrimp. Neon Dottybacks are much more likely to attack the shrimp than a Flame Hawkfish in my Experience.

"Hight Nitrates for fish would be the equivlent to use breathing smug in a big city. Is smug harmful to us .... yes but, there are people who live there whole life, but it doesn't kill them and to some it does get to them and they leave. Are high nitrate bad, YES. But fish live in it, some YES."

Sorry, but not a good comparision. Smog is deadly and causes health problems, nitrates in the levels we see do not.

" Ray Have your tryed and angle fish?"

No, I can never seem to fine one of those rare angle fish :D

Yes I've done angel fish.

" Low nitrates is more a quallity of live then a life or death situation. ""

Not really.

Ray

[Mandairn]

oh man....i think i keep my fish well fed and my flame still got my shimp who for what i can remeber was at lest the same size if not bigger. it sux i liked my cleaner shimp (though i like the flame more). oh well..

"Hight Nitrates for fish would be the equivlent to use breathing smug in a big city. Is smug harmful to us .... yes but, there are people who live there whole life, but it doesn't kill them and to some it does get to them and they leave. Are high nitrate bad, YES. But fish live in it, some YES."

Sorry, but not a good comparision. Smog is deadly and causes health problems, nitrates in the levels we see do not.

..did you not write any thing in hight lvl to b deadly. somg in high lvls is deadly low leaves cuase minor compication that we do not see.. but this is a better live discution(spell check) then a post form.

will write this to help your point of view: have i read this in a book, no, proven it my self, no, but, when i was in school i did a lot of field water testing in local lakes and pond (bell(sorry) of a lot of them in Minnasota) and fish in high NO3 lvl ten to have a lot more help problems then those in lower lvl. You could say thats fresh water fish though, or like OG pointed out could be a corlation but not a direct influce (which i would beleave in the waters i tested), or it is harmful to fish.

But as u point out not in a book, though no book said other wise.

oN a fORm WE cAN OlnY GIve YoU iNSites ANd IdealS ClowED by OpionS, iTS Up TO tHE REaderS TO cHOSe WHat TO gO On anD wHAt TO pAss UP...WOW i WroTE THAt FUge

[wayne]

Ray, out of curiosity, and robably the root of another thread, what fishes do you like to use in the tanks you maintain, an what stocking levels do you like? Have you ever tried reputedly fussy fish like butterflies, how do you find tangs? Personally mine are creeping ever down as I get lazier and fussier at the same time.
Fossa and Nilsson in their book 1 state nitrate levels in the 1000's stop various cell functions, I don't know if that implies lower leels have lesser deleterious effects, or none at all till a threshold is reached.

[Ray Pollett]

I sell set up and do the maintenance on tanks. I try to find out what the customer wants be before I start designing the tank set up. Some you realize really do not care; they just want people to WOW!; when they see the tank.

I like to use clowns, angels, Firefish, gobies, some of the dottybacks, fairy & filament wrasse, royal grammas, and yellow tail blue damsels when I have the choice. Some people I give a list of fish that I recommend along with a book (Scoott Micheal's "A Pocketexpert guide Marine Fishes") so they can pick what they like. We then talk about compatibility, of them I tell them to pick the one fish they must have; and design the setup for that.

The only butterfly I have is a copperband at the present time. My customers want coral reef tanks usually plus I refuse to set up a bleach coral tank like most in this business set up. A lot of them want Anemone & clowns together.

"Fossa and Nilsson in their book 1 state nitrate levels in the 1000's stop various cell functions, I don't know if that implies lower leels have lesser deleterious effects, or none at all till a threshold is reached."

Yes I could believe that. But I consider 1000s to be absurbly high. You have to remember the numbers quoted most often for high and dangerous nitrate readings are 10, and 40; some say 5.

I love tangs. Most of my customers want the old standard Yellow Tang. Next are the Naso, Pacific Blue and Powder Blue tangs.

Stocking levels are varied a lot with the tanks I do. Some people let me set the stocking level for a healthy tank. Most of mine would be considered med. to med-high stocking levels. Some customers have a new fish every month they saw and bought. Their tanks can be very over crowded. I have one customer always buying big aggressive fish. He has a 50 gallon tank. IT had 2 - 4 inch Clarkii clowns, A blue Damsel, A 4 inch Coral beauty Angel and he buys a Niger Triggerfish. You try to tell them that does not work. Then he wants to know why the Coral Bueaty died; Just like you said it would.

I also try to use autofeeders. I feed heavily by almost everyone's standard.

Ray