Non co2 nutrient plan?

[Cearbhaill]

I have a 90g (24" deep) planted tank that I am wanting to maintain without use of CO2.

My water is pH 7.0, KH 1, and I have 220 watts of CF lighting, (half 9325º half 6700º). I have used Onyx sand as a substrate, and the tank is filtered by an Eheim 2026 and a Penquin 330. My hopes are to add Discus in the future after the tank matures to some degree, so am dealing with warmer water. I change 25% of the water once a week and replace with aged (outgassed) water.
Plants include:
Java fern
Java Moss
Amazon Swords
Pygmy swords
Rubin Sword
Anubias
Bolbitis
Crystal Vals
Onion plants
Water sprite
Hydroplila (giant and sunset)

Fish include:
Cardinal tetras
Diamond tetras
Harlequin Rasboras
Hatchet fish
Corydoras
Otocinclus
Farlowellas

I know that some of these plants (i.e.the sunset hydro) may not do well in a moderately lighted tank, and that there are design flaws... we'll let that go for the moment.
My question is regarding nutrients- I have here Flourish Excel, Flourish, Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish tabs. I have a tab near each of the swords and larger plants. I understand that my fish provide the N and the P.

Is there a "keep it simple stupid" method to keeping this tank presentable without altering it's basic lighting/water/fish load ??
I prefer (at this point anyway) to buy prepared products. I know it is a large tank and CO2 would be preferable, but until I get a handle on my KH (hoping the Onyx sand will help)and grasp some basic water chemistry I am staying away from CO2.
I am not wanting excessive growth nor showstopping results. I am wanting the majority of my plants to stay healthily green.
I do not mind dosing daily. I am just looking for that elusive "simple plan" of what to add when.
Does one exist?

http://www.cearbhaill.com/planted1.jpg

[plantbrain]

> I have a 90g (24" deep) planted tank that I am wanting to maintain without
> use of CO2.
>
> My water is pH 7.0, KH 1, and I have 220 watts of CF lighting, (half 9325º
> half 6700º). I have used Onyx sand as a substrate, and the tank is filtered
> by an Eheim 2026 and a Penquin 330.

Well cut the light way back, 160w of NO FL lighting is about right.
Deeper 4 inch substrate is good.
You will have algae with this much light other wise.... unless you go to
CO2.

> My hopes are to add Discus in the future
> after the tank matures to some degree, so am dealing with warmer water. I
> change 25% of the water once a week and replace with aged (outgassed) water.

Non CO2 tanks are choosen for less mainteance, this is part of the
deal, no water changes. Top off for evaporation only. Water change
when you need to do a big trim or cleaning, about once every 3-6
months or so.

82-84F works fine for Discus, breeding even......... so I know they do
fine at that temp. Also, these are big cichlids and folks have
troubles not over feeding them. All this waste and leftover food =
algae.
So don't over stock the tank, like 5 fish MAX if you plan on feeding a
lot.

I see you plan on adding a bunch of smaller fish on top of this.
This is going to produce a lot of waste and there's no way a non CO2
tank w/25% weekly water changes is going cope with this loading.
You will get algae troubles.

> I know that some of these plants (i.e.the sunset hydro) may not do well in a
> moderately lighted tank,

It's not the light that is limiting the plant here, it's the CO2, the plants(just about any plant you want to pick for that matter) will grow just fine if you
added CO2.
If you want to improve plants growth(you would not have asked
otherwise), then CO2 is your only logical next step here not more light.

CO2 enriched tank can and do work great with 50% weekly water changes.
Many planted tank+ Discus owners do 50% 2x a week water changes FWIW.

and that there are design flaws... we'll let that
> go for the moment.
> My question is regarding nutrients- I have here Flourish Excel, Flourish,
> Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, and Flourish tabs. I have a tab near each
> of the swords and larger plants. I understand that my fish provide the N and
> the P.

In a non carbon enriched tank somewhat.
You are adding Excel to a larger tank and will need to pay a fair
amount over the course of a year for this.

I'd recommend using CO2 gas tank for your goal here. It'll allow you
to feed more, have more fish, do water changes etc and have faster
growing plants. It'll also allow more stable conditions and allow you keep it that way simply and with less guess work.

> Is there a "keep it simple stupid" method to keeping this tank presentable
> without altering it's basic lighting/water/fish load ??


Sure, but your stocking list is critical, lighting value needs to be
lowered.
Deep substrate, lots of plants from the start, 10-25% surface with
floating plants like water sprite.
You have too much light to balance this well and plan on too many fish on top of that.

> I prefer (at this point anyway) to buy prepared products. I know it is a
> large tank and CO2 would be preferable, but until I get a handle on my KH
> (hoping the Onyx sand will help)and grasp some basic water chemistry I am
> staying away from CO2.

It'll raise the KH some, for awhile. It's better to add those PC
lights last rather than adding the CO2 tank last. But the Excel will
help some. It'll get costly along the way.

Building a substrate well is a key for the non CO2 method with a
decent lighting amount, 1.5-2w gal or so, no water changes etc.

I've seen some tanks with plant filters and no water changes that folks have bred disicus in with no water changes for a couple of years.
But they did not grow much in the way of rooted submersed plants in the tank.

> I am not wanting excessive growth nor showstopping results. I am wanting the
> majority of my plants to stay healthily green.
> I do not mind dosing daily. I am just looking for that elusive "simple plan"
> of what to add when.
> Does one exist?

Both Discus and plants are more work than you may be prepared for.

Most everyone says the same thing about nothing great on the plants or
wanting fast growth. You do want good healthy growth(which is not always fast). Because if the plants are not growing, guess what will?

They often come back asking about how to cure
their algae problems.

Many Discus owners unwilling to try the CO2 and
other plant methods just live with their fur covered Anubias. Meantime
my fish are happy, get lots of water changes, high Dissolved O2
levels, and the tank looks nice.

Folks often think they have to apply strict discus breeder's habits to
their own tank. This is not true. Temp is one issue, low KH/Gh is
another, 3 degrees is fine, even up to 5 or so. I had them bred at
82F, GH 9 , KH 5.5.
Loads of plants and CO2.

They did not get any special treatment and were fed once a day(Varied
diet-no live tubifix worms) and got quite large 7-8".
Regards,
Tom Barr

[Cearbhaill]

Somehow I knew you'd be telling me that.
OK- I will reduce the watts while I begin studying CO2 systems.
Any plug and play ready systems you'd recommend?

While I really do appreciate your comments, I am still afraid of CO2. I'm afraid of ugly tanks and tubing in my home, I'm afraid of compressed gas, and I know I'll not know how to hook it all up. I'll bang the tanks against my walls lugging them in and out and the gauges will confuse me.
Feh!
<g>

There is nothing for me to do now but set out on my *very steep* learning curve.
Thank you for the time it took to formulate your response.

[plantbrain]

Does home brew beer and soda machines scare you? Known anyone harmed by the them? Not drinking too much but the other........

CO2 gas is easy to use especially once set up.
It's about like the lighting, you mess with it very seldom once it's on the tank.
The gas tank goes under the stand and has a simple silicone tube going into a reactor tube(You can make your own and comnnect it in line with the Ehiem).
The basic stuff:

A gas tank, 5-10lb range will fit under most 2ft stands, last about 1-3 years on this tank depending per refill. So you will not be making the trip to get a refill very often and the cost:10-15$. That's the cost of one 500ml Excel bottle.
The gas tanks this size are pretty small, easy to wrestle.

Regulator, this just steps the pressure down to something usable.
Screws on to the tank(use teflon tape for the connections etc).

Needle valve: this fine regulates the flow.
So you have a gas tank=>: Regulator(set output around 15-20psi)=> needle valve, set bubbles per second(start about 2-3b /sec for your tank) and feed into reactor.

Some folks find Bubble counters convenient and check valves.
I don't use them personally. It depends on youe set up and how you feed the CO2 into the reactor. If there's backpressure in the line(eg will water leak out if the hole is not plugged), then you'll need a check valve.

Most reactors are simply a larger diameter tube where the water and gas dwell longer time periods to help the gas dissolven into the water rather than having mist or bubbles leaking up and out the top of your tank.
I make them on ocassion for folks that want a nice clear one or with special applications etc but here's a simple model out of PVC:

http://www.aquaticscape.com/articles/co2reactor.htm

I think there's dlink's(search this and other forum achives, it's in there) mail order page which has a 99$ deal for the tank, regulator combined and then you can get a needle valve from Aquabotanic or other vendors including www.clippard.com under MVK-4(?) series valves. Call and ask as they will let you know what you need for your application. The shipping cost about 10$ but the valve is about 10 $ and most vendors sell them for about 20$ or so. So for the 99$+valve(20$) and either a powerhead or a PVC tube etc, you can have a nice CO2 set up for around 130$ or so.

As far as the chemistry/setting/measuring CO2, well it's easy unless you want to make it difficult.

You'll need to add some of that hard south Florida tap water to get about 3GH and KH.
, next add only enough CO2 to drop the pH to 6.5. Keep the pH there when the lights are on.

That's all you need to do for both fish and plants.
If the GH is over 3 and not over 10, you are fine. Just not under 3.

Look at it this way: you have spent the $ for the onyx, the lights, and now plan on spending more for the fish than the cost of the CO2.
Ask folks if the CO2 expense it worth it to them. It's the one missing part to your tank.

Adding nutrients and water changes are easy. The CO2 is about all you need to work on for now. Try it w/o the Discus first, get the plants growing well etc, then add the fish.

I can give you specific dosing amounts for this tank in the future so don't worry about the nutrients just yet. It's easy.

The hard parts for using CO2: setting it up and getting a good pH test kit.

Other issues: The pruning of plants is better than pruning algae. Consider herbivores(Discus will eat amano shrimps), and such. Feeding twice a day till the fish get use to the tank and fattened up. Keep up on water changes and dosing of the nutrients.

That's about it.

Don't try and under stand all the CO2/HCO3 chemistry just yet. You'll confuse yourself and just knowing the KH and what pH you need to achieve a CO2 ppm level is the nuts and bolts of it.

There's a learning curve but it's fairly short with this.
There are a number of web sites/archives detailing all this out.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[bmarcus]

You cant have discus with onyx, it buffers the water way to high.

[plantbrain]

Yea ya can, I added ground peat to the bottom 1 inch layer of my onyx and it's maintained the same KH/GH as the tap water now for 4 months so far(KH 3 and GH of 5 per Lamott test kits).
About a handful of peat per sq ft.

It's effect is lessened also from the large water change routine folks typically do with big overfed cichlids.

Discus don't need/require super soft water to live grow and breed in. Like I said, they bred in KH of 5 and GH of 9. I know of some folks that did it in higher KH's. You don't want hard water really if you want to bred, but they do okay at moderate KH/GH's and are just peachy at a KH of 3, GH 3-5, temps 82-84F.
While you may get a little bigger spawns, little larger fish with pure water, upper 80F temps, this is certainly not a requirement by any stretch unless serious breeding/commerical production is your goal. But I think a good goal is to bred enough to pay for the cost of the parents and some extra for the time. I did that very well with mine.

Good food, low stocking, frequent water changes and good feeding routines will produce good spawns with most fish. These are the basics folks often forget/don't do.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Cearbhaill]

Thank you Tom Barr for convincing me to try CO2.

And by the way- my "hard South Florida tap water" has a KH of 1-2, so a pH crash is probably my biggest fear. That's why I felt so smart in choosing the Onyx sand. The tank has had this substrate for only a couple of weeks- I'll give it a couple more then test KH again.
Breeding anything will never be my goal. My Diamond Tetras spawn regularly- the odd juvenile survives but mostly the other fish have caviar, and that's fine with me. This is strictly a display tank.

I am looking at the "Ultimate CO2 System" from Florida Driftwood with a pH controller. While I may be able to find the parts separately for less $$ by shopping, getting everything in one box from one vendor is worth time and money to me, so the price is OK. Plus they are in the same town as me if I panic while setting it up.

As soon as I feel secure with my KH I'll get one hooked up.
Until then I've cut the lighting back some.

[plantbrain]

I'd pass on the controller. Get a pH monitor instead.
Ther pH controller really doesn't control much and you don't really need it. But the regulator/needle valve etc is fine and all the other stuff.
Most vendors will have a pH monitor for sale if they have a pH controller.
The pH monitor is not hooked up to the CO2. It just measures the pH well and at a glace to determine the CO2 level. Convenient. Once the needle valve is set, the pH stays pretty constant.

The low KH, and the GH likely also, means the water is from the upper part of the aquifer and you got lucky sort of. Adding baking soda will be the name of the game. See how much it takes to do a 50 % water and raise the KH to 3. Remember this amount, say 1 teaspoon pr 50% water change etc.
Check your GH.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[punch]

Don't be afraid of co2! the tank can fit nicely under a cabinet and there realy isn't a lot of tubes. I use pressurized co2 and figured it out. I also just made my self a diy canopy with lights and wired it up my self. No previouse experience and (I'm a girl):D So I'm sure you can do it. Just one step at a time, follow instructions and follow thru, You should be fine. Once you get co2 set up (if you go pressurized) there is almost no maintance. Just filling up the tank every 6-12 months. (depending)

[Cearbhaill]

(I'm a girl)
Me too.
And I'm old enough to be guilty of letting that limit my willingness to learn how to do "manly" things like building sumps and retrofitting hoods and learning about CO2.
I'm doing to myself the same thing (limiting my horizons) that I would condem other people for doing to me.
Fishkeeping teaches you many things, grasshopper.
Guess I just learned a big lesson myself.

Heck- with a good diagram and a great pair of reading glasses I just might do OK!

[punch]

Believe me, Once you do it you'll wonder what you were so afraid
of:D When I did my canopy the wiring frighted me. I thought, I don't know anything about electrical wiring! I'll mess it up.
But I just did 1 step at a time and followed the instructions... and it works:eek: shocked me! (not for real, just figurtivley) I did my co2 a while ago and it was easier.