Aquascaping with insulation foam

[ejmeier]

Has anyone done this, or can provide detail on the procedure?

I am definitely going to give this a try, and just want to get any tidbits of information before I dive in.

From what I have gathered, you basically use insulation spray foam that they sell in the hardware store. You just spray it to the back of your tank, adding a textured effect. You can then insert or stick all sorts of things in the back such as rocks, wood, etc. while the foam is still soft. Once it hardens, it's stuck in there for good, and viola! a beautiful - and real/living - tank background.

I have also considered making a compartment in the back and putting a powerhead down there, and then cover up the compartment with foam/rocks. You could practically hide all your equipment in a hidden area covered with a foam casing.

Does anyone have any tips, experience, etc. that they can share?

[wetmanNY]

Very interesting.

First step is to read the contents on the particular insulating foam you plan to use. Google each of the ingredients separately and get the skinny on how inert they will be over time.

Post all the stages of what you're finding here in this thread, and everyone will join in.

The concept is terrific. But you need some concrete information about stability in water and inertness etc etc.

[ejmeier]

Yes, I was wondering the same thing about safety, as I was actually planning on doing this with freshwater first, then use it a reef tank.

I actually remember reading about a guy in the Netherlands that did this same thing in his reef tank. His tank looked absolutely amazing. He said he used just regular insulation foam that can be found at the hardware store. He also kept several delicate corals in the tank, and if there was anything harmful leeching into the water, I'm sure it would've had a negative effect on the tank, but everything looked, and was reported healthy.

I have been wanting to experiment with this idea with some aquatic "guinea pigs" so to speak, but the price for the dispenser gun ($90 at Home Depot) discouraged me from this. If I can find this foam anywhere else for a better price, I will toy around with the idea. In the end though, I guess I would be willing to pay that amount of money if I am assured of the success that I have seen in others' tanks.

[wover98]

If I were you, I would get a piece of plexy-glass or something simular, then foam it, and place it in the back of your tank, then if it doesn't work out, you could simply remove it.
you could probably build a wire frame, and cover it with screen material, and have multiple shapes and landscapes.;)

[RENEGADE]

$90 bucks?!?!?!?! that not right it should be like 5 bucks

[somefinnfishy]

It rots and takes on water I just dont see it as a good idea plus try to use the stuff somewhere other than your tank and I seriously doubt you'd try it on any nice glass.
Other questions expanding or not what did they use?The non expanding kind I'm assuming.
They now sell foam sealnt in black for water gardens/ponds thats labeled fish safe so who knows?

[ewok]

interesting thought.....

you must be looking at something fancy. there's canned foam like "great stuff" or whatever and also "dap" makes a water soluable version. i think i would recommend the water soluable, the other stuff is just flat nasty for cleanup.... hm.... but the chemical version hardens, the water soluable stays somewhat pliable and is softer when it dries.

if you attempt the chemical clean up version, keep in mind you have to pretty much use it all in one sitting. usually it hardens in the valve and trashes the can after the first use. i have used both versions several times around the house for various insulation projects. the chemical version also has a couple varients, high and low expansion types, one will grow to fill holes and the other won't.

something else to think of too, i think the chemical stuff breaks down under time and sunlight (probably the uv). if you have a highly lighted tank, this might become an issue eventually.

how about a suggestion similar to what's already been posted? make it on a piece of plexi and then seal the foam with fiberglass resin......... or some other way of sealing it..... or use it as a mold to make a hollow fiberglass "skin". my friends tank came with a rock like that installed, we cut some openings for the fish to be able to use the inside as a cave.

sitting here thinking of something you said about being able to put things into it, etc.... it's not very sturdy, really. so if you bump into those objects after you may enlarge the holes or cause the foam to break up and pollute the tank. another thing to consider is whether or not the foam will absorb water... what then? and if it doesn't absorb water it should be pretty bouyant and will need to be anchored.......

just some random thoughts to add to what's been posted.

[carpguy]

I'm in the planning stages of something similar. There was a thread recently on this but I can't find it at the moment. That feller in the Netherlands had a nice page on how he did his and its worth looking for. Someone around here did a background based on it and it looked good (hopefully they'll chime in).

I played a little bit with "Great Stuff" ($5 or so a can, one can should be plenty) on a piece of ceramic tile and wasn't that ecstatic with the control. I'm going to try carving built up layers of insulation styrofoam and then covering that with coats of grout or alumina cement (still researching). I'll stain with extremely dilute acrylic paints and then seal the whole bit with epoxy.

http://www.btinternet.com/~colinlewis.bonsai/Reading/Cementpix/Cementcolor.jpeg

That's a piece of engineered concrete slab made by the guy who wrote this article (http://www.btinternet.com/~colinlewis.bonsai/Reading/Cement.html). I'm basing my approach on his techniques.

I think the more time you want to put in to this the better the results will be. Work-it-wet-and-voila! seems overly optimistic to me: I'm in the plan for a few weeks, carve and shape for a few weeks camp. I'll post whatever it is that I do (hopefully by the end of August).

[wetmanNY]

Chuck Gadd, planted-tank guru, did this paludarium (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/46g.htm) using pink insulation sheets, with extra sections glued on with silicone, then all carved down and epoxied and sanded with natural sand.

Gadd gives some of the best illustrated "how-to" on the 'Net.

I wish you folks would all read the ingredients on your packaging, google the stuff, and go back and edit your threads with some harder information on materials.

Brilliant thread. Thank you ej.

[ejmeier]

Well, I didn't know that there were this many different varieties of "foam" to choose from. Those that say that it is impossible or will not work would be surprised to see that this actually HAS worked for someone with a reef tank, under quite demanding conditions, and high intensity Metal Halide lamps. Now the only question is - what kind of foam did he use? He is from the Netherlands, and I doubt that whatever they sell over there is available here in America.

I did some searching, and found the guy's thread, his name, or at least his user-name is Tanu.

Here is a link to his thread on Reef Central, note that the "foam" discussion doesn't take place until about 3/4 the way into the thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148461

Here is a quote from the thread also: (turns out that he didn't apply it directly to glass, but made it on acrylic sheets, then glued it to the glass.)

[QUOTE]Spray foam indeed. After the foam has hardened, the tank is rinsed thouroughly 3 times: fresh water, fresh water with table salt, fresh water again. Hereafter, no problem.

Some people also seal the foam with epoxy. It is just ordinary 'hardware store' foam. I didn't really incorporate powerheads in the foam, but I have one pump chamber. In there are two pumps: one Tunze Turbelle and one no-name pump to achieve (with the help of pvc tubing) a bottom dwelling current.

The sand used on the surface was just 'ordinary' crushed coral.

These backdrops are created the easiest, when one applies the foam, rocks, sand and so on, when the acrylic sheets aren't glued in place yet. Better have the sheets lying on a table or so. When everything has hardened out, you glue the sheets in place and 'bond' them with a little extra foam.[QUOTE]

You guys should definitely check out this guy's tank, it looks great.

[ejmeier]

Ok, I reread that thread, and Tanu said that he used "pur-foam" from a hardware store. I did a search on pur foam, and came up with this on from greenpeace's website:

" Rigid Polyurethane foam (PUR) is commonly used in construction as an insulating foam. There are a number of different kinds of foam which are all rigid PUR - most noteably, boardstock, sandwich panels and spray foams.

...Spray foams are made at the point of use and are literally sprayed into place. They are highly suitable for the insulation of uneven or inaccessible surfaces and are used in storage tanks, pipe work and refrigerated trailers.

...Alternatively, CO2 is currently being used as the blowing agent by ICI and Liquid Polymers Group in the UK, ResinaChemie and BASF in Germany and Nassau Doors in Denmark. Carbon dioxide blowing, in combination with process changes, as demonstrated by Windsor Doors in Norway, is a proven technology for spray foams."

This was taken from:
http://archive.greenpeace.org/~ozone/excuse/18excuse.html

From the looks of it, this kind of spray foam is being developed/pioneered in Europe, hence Tanu could have easily acquired this stuff. I have no idea where to find this in the states. This could become a quest...:)

[wetmanNY]

Famous aquarium designer Nanne de Vos in the Netherlands is using some kind of similar spray-on polyurethane foam: http://www.biotopia.nl/ne/frames.html

Of course the Swedish "Back-to-Nature" backgrounds have inspired some sophisticated Swedish and Danish DIY projects. (http://hem.spray.se/cichlids/construction_background.htm)

[carpguy]

There are large scale commercial versions of that sauce for construction-type applications and I think that the Greenpeace info is kind of geared to that. I also think its what the guy is using in the pic from WetMan's Dutch site. If you don't want to invest in a rig that could insulate a row of houses in a day, you can find very similar stuff in spray cans at your Lowes/Home Depot/local hardware store for a few bucks each ($5 a can?).

The brand I experimented with is called Great Stuff -- insulating foam sealant (http://www.dow.com/greatstuff/index.htm) . Its made by Dow and will be where they keep insulation materials. I played with it a bit and found it hard to control. I decided to go with an approach more like this (http://hem.spray.se/cichlids/construction_background_jimchamberlain.htm), from WetMan's Swedish and Danish site. Some differences… I want to do detailed features for a small tank, some background but also floor structures, and… I'm a control freak. Tanu's approach from the ReefCentral thread seems like its well suited to a simulated coral reef and less well so to simulated stone features. The right technique will really depend on what you want the end result to be.

You should be aware that the crushed coral he mentions is fine for a salty tank or a very alkaline freshwater tank (like a rift lake tank), but will wreak havoc on the water chemistry for most other applications.

[ejmeier]

This all has been very helpful and informative.:)

Those were great links wetmanNY, and I don't feel as apprehensive as I did before in terms of the toxicity of the foam. This seems to be a semi-regular practice over in Europe.

Also, the techniques that they used seemed very much geared toward a freshwater tank, where you try to make a mold or imprint of something. For my reef tank however, I just want to use the foam to sort of "hold" the actual pieces of rock/sand in place. So I guess there is little need to carve and shape the foam, the more irregular, the better!;)

[wetmanNY]

Eric, if your finished surface is "sanded" with crushed coral and fine aragonite, it will develop a "live rock" surface as the setup matures. If you "sand" the wet final surface with crushed coral first, then follow by dusting it over with finer aragonite grit, you'll get very complete coverage. (My limited experience is in freshwater, with fine gravel, followed by construction sand.)

Will you disguise filter intakes and outlets etc?

[ejmeier]

Well, reef tanks can be a bit more involved when it comes to filteration, etc. Basically, all of the filtration and other equipment will be located in the sump, so the only thing to hide on the intake side is an internal overflow box where the water exits the tank to go to the sump. However, the water is then returned from the sump via a pump to the main tank, so there are also return pipes to bring the water back to the tank. So I would use the foam to hide the overflow box and the return pipes.

[ejmeier]

Just an update, FWIW.

I went ahead with this project, you can see the results/pics over on this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206567

[somefinnfishy]

Minnetonka ;) drove through there today to my buddys house in victoria.I cut the lawn and water the indoor plants at benigans on 394 in SLP
do you shop at forest lake pets?if you have never been there check us out not a salt specitaly shop like something fishy but huge in comparison.Best glass prices around perfecto jetstream (drilled overflow)90g for $199:D Come see me I work thurs,fri,sat,sun,mon the name is eric:cool: