what fert... maybe a fish too?

[DarkSoul]

Well my tank is still currently cycling.... I think....... I say that because there are no ammonia readings since adding my plants, and its only been a couple of weeks so there are still no other readings either. Not only that, my ammonia level hasn't gone any higher than 0.25 ... so I'm not really sure where my cycle stands at this point.

Anyway, I have a few plants that Im sure you've seen me asking about, but I just got wondering, what ferts should I be feeding my plants right now, since they arent looking so good, and I figure its probably due to iron levels (between 0 and 0.05) so obviously bigals plant food isnt working quite right (like everything else of theirs)

What kind of ferts can I buy locally(and tomorrow) that I can feed my plants, that will give them what they need to survive. I would like something simple.

would it be of benefit to purchase a fish, possibly a betta, and continue my cycle with a fish?

I want to add more plants, but not if they are going to die.

[gingerinaustin]

What source of ammonia do you have in the tank to start your cycle? From what I've read, you need a lotta lotta lotta LOT of plants to cycle a tank with plants alone. What are your nitrite and nitrate levels?

I would not cycle a tank with a betta. The levels of ammonia and nitrite inherent to cycling a tank would irreparably damage a betta's fins and gills, possibly to the point of no return.

If you have access to a LFS that sells BioSpira (the only such product that works), you could add hardier fish (but not a betta) and BioSpira at the same time, and that could help speed up your cycle. Or, you could go the fishless cycle route, although I'm not exactly sure how that works with plants--hopefully someone else will chime in.

[DarkSoul]

Im canadian... apparently we cant get biospira here.

anyway, my ammonia source was some flake food I dumped in.... Ive been waiting for some ammonium chloride I ordered, but i think i got rooked on that deal.... which is why I was trying to find an easier source of ammonia.

[geofied]

What source of ammonia do you have in the tank to start your cycle? From what I've read, you need a lotta lotta lotta LOT of plants to cycle a tank with plants alone. What are your nitrite and nitrate levels?

I would not cycle a tank with a betta. The levels of ammonia and nitrite inherent to cycling a tank would irreparably damage a betta's fins and gills, possibly to the point of no return.

If you have access to a LFS that sells BioSpira (the only such product that works), you could add hardier fish (but not a betta) and BioSpira at the same time, and that could help speed up your cycle. Or, you could go the fishless cycle route, although I'm not exactly sure how that works with plants--hopefully someone else will chime in.

OK, I'm not trying be combative, but this simply doesn't make sense. Why would you think that a Betta, which doesn't utilize its gills for oxygen processing, would be less hardy than a non-anabantoid? Why would a fish that is hardy enough to live in muddy rice paddies, wriggle and "crawl" on dry land if necessary to get into another puddle. I fully realize that due to overbreeding, etc. we have done some damage to the immune systems of many of the currently available Bettas, but please provide some evidence to support this claim.

[Mgamer20o0]

add some more food or just wait until it to get in. look in the fert sticky for some ideas to picking up local ferts.

i would hold off on adding a fish until its cycled.

[gingerinaustin]

I fully realize that due to overbreeding, etc. we have done some damage to the immune systems of many of the currently available Bettas, but please provide some evidence to support this claim.

Bingo. You just did.

Here's a picture of a wild betta.
http://www.ibanorum.netfirms.com/bettabb.jpg

And here's a picture of a betta I bought off Aquabid.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1372/580890009_80135414b1.jpg

Completely different in regard to hardiness. I might use a wild betta to cycle a tank, but I don't think the OP was planning on traveling to Thailand to dig through rice paddies.

Although bettas obtain the vast majority of the oxygen they need through their labyrinth organs, this does not mean that their gill tissues are any less susceptible to disease and the toxic effects of ammonia and nitrite.

[end hijack]

[Volenti]

Since you have no fish as yet , what I would do, in your situation would be to add some natural garden soil under the substrate, "dig up the yard under the grass" type soil, just make sure it's not heavily fertilized.

This will add the bacteria you need for the nitrogen cycle, the organic materials in it will create ammonia to start the cycle and feed the plants and also add a lot of trace elements your plants may be missing.

A layer a half inch thick under the substrate will be a good start for primarily planted tank, though you only need a few tablespoons worth if all you want to do is jump start the cycle.

[geofied]

Bingo. You just did.

Here's a picture of a wild betta.


And here's a picture of a betta I bought off Aquabid.


Completely different in regard to hardiness. I might use a wild betta to cycle a tank, but I don't think the OP was planning on traveling to Thailand to dig through rice paddies.

Although bettas obtain the vast majority of the oxygen they need through their labyrinth organs, this does not mean that their gill tissues are any less susceptible to disease and the toxic effects of ammonia and nitrite.

[end hijack]

Um, no. Just because we have bred in more desirable coloring and finnage doesn't change the physiological make-up of the fish. They may have compromised immune systems (which was just speculation, I have found no proof of that in literature, BTW), but that is not a direct correlation to their general hardiness to cycling factors, i.e. Stress, Ammonia, and Nitrites. All fish are sensitive to Ammonia and Nitrites, but since Anabantoids do not filter the water through their gills, it reasons that they are less susceptible to poisoning from it than non-Anabantoids. I have found no evidence to the contrary, just folks like you saying that they are "really sensitive". In fact, most of the literature I've seen from "experts" claims that they (non-wild and wild Bettas) are more hardy than most other species. Do you really think pet stores change the water on those tiny cups they keep Bettas in (if so, how often)? If they were so sensitive, they would all have fin and tail rot and be dying. The breeder you purchased your beautiful Betta from likely bred and kept them in the tiny "Betta boxes" that hold a couple of liters of water at best, with no substrate, and no filter, and likely no plants to support substantial growth of beneficial bacteria. Again, please provide some specific information (other than my speculation on something adjacently related) to back up your claim that Bettas are less hardy than other fish, and more sensitive to Ammonia and Nitrite. I'm tired of seeing the same old myths being recycled in these forums, and want to see some proof.

That being said, DarkSoul, I have managed to "skip" cycling 3 tanks now by seeding them with filter media from existing tanks and by having them start out heavily planted. So having plants in your tank can mask elevated levels of Ammonia and Nitrites(because the Ammonia and Nitrites are being consumed before they show up on tests) , and potentially delay the growth/propagation of de-nitrifying bacteria since they are competing with the plants for food (on the other hand, plants provide surface area for beneficial bacteria to adhere to). Either way, not a bad thing at all, just something to consider When cycling a tank with plants.

[jpappy789]

All fish are sensitive to Ammonia and Nitrites, but since Anabantoids do not filter the water through their gills, it reasons that they are less susceptible to poisoning from it than non-Anabantoids.

Not true. The labyrinth organ is a secondary breathing organ. All anabantoids still need to use their gills! The labyrinth organ is a "back up plan" for lack of a better term.

Just making sure this is clear.

[DarkSoul]

I am using prime to condition the water :)

[Paccula]

I agree, the labyrinth organ is a back-up system in case Oxygen is short in the water. Even if the fish isn't consciously using its gills, and is relying on its labyrinth, the ammonia laden water would still come into contact with some parts of its gills. Gill covers protect them for the most part, but if they worked perfectly then fish would never get parasitic worms in their gills and what not.

:OT:
gingerinaustin, what a beautiful fish you have!!

[jpappy789]

gingerinaustin, what a beautiful fish you have!!

:iagree:

Nice fishies...ok back on topic...

[gingerinaustin]

gingerinaustin, what a beautiful fish you have!!
Thanks! He was beautiful, until his fins rotted off and he developed gill hyperplasia on one side. Hardy little fella that he is, he acts like nothing's wrong--swims, eats like a pig, flares at his reflection, does his little happy dance--but he looks terrible. Alas, he's had no fin regrowth despite pristine water conditions in a filtered, heated, cycled tank, six full cycles of different antibiotics, live foods and Betta Spa almond leaf extract. Despite it all, he'll probably outlive all my other fish, the raggedy little Andy.
:iagree: ...:topic: ! But the OP started another thread about his daughter's tank so I don't feel quite so ashamed.