Having plant trouble....

[Feafur]

I'm hoping I didn't...but, I think I may have shot myself in the foot. Ok...for alot of you who are very experienced in large tanks, please forgive me. I am new to all of this large tank stuff. I have a 180 gallon tank with very few fish currently. I laid down some plain old gravel and then put sand on top of that...I have a few rocks scattered around. Here's the problem. I then decided to add plants. I should have read up more on adding plants, as I have now done since they are DYING! Almost everything I read says that they need some sort of substrate and CO2. So, am I completely screwed? I sure as heck don't want to have to take all that gravel and sand back out and the ad that I purchased the plants ( on ebay ) said that I would not need CO2 for these plants...any suggestions? I've already lost the pearlgrass and the Amazon Swords are getting brown spots. The plants that look like bamboo are almost completely colorless now....I would shoot you a picture, but I'm not sure how to do that either! Please help! Thanks, Kim
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=12466829608.521580432208.1189447467732&page=1

[shaggbark]

The first thing we need to know is how many watts of light do you have running?

[Feafur]

Well...I have the regular lights up there that came with the tank (flourscent type ) and then I added 2 full spectrum lights that I had on some bird cages ( used for keeping them in breeding season! ) All I can remember about them is that they say 5,000K and I believe they are 91% full spectrum....hope that helps. If you need more info...I can see if I see anymore specs on them....

[silentskream]

the sand and rocks should be fine.

HOWEVER you said you have very few fish currently.. my guess is that the plants dont have any food (they "eat" fish poo)
and with a tank that size (or that deep) you need some pretty strong lights to get down to the bottom of the tank. i can't advise you on the lighting, but i can suggest buying aquarium plant food. (you should be able to find it wherever you buy your plants/fish)

[Star_Rider]

get the wattage from the bulbs and add them up
5000k is the 'heat' of the bulb rated in Kelvins
what is most important is getting enough light to the plants.
and in the right spectrum
daylight bulbs usually cover the full spectrum

how deep the tank is will have some bearing on how much light you need.

the WPG rule is out the door on the large tanks.

normally 2 wpg is considered high enough to keep many plants without adding CO2. adding CO2 will help in most situations,
gravel and sand for substrate is fone for many plants.
but gravel is usually inert and some root feeding plants will need fertilizer tabs(sword)

other plants feed from the water column.

planted tanks are differetn than non planted in that you want some nitrtates to show..usually the minimum nitrates need to be atleast 10 ppm as the plants will need the nitrates .

how deep is the tank?

[Marinemom]

Most likely you need more lighting meaning stronger lights then the standard lights that come with the tank. Those lights are fine for viewing the fish but it has been my experience that they just do not measure up when it comes to live plants. I have 4 double strips of t-5 lighting for my 125 and it is adequate as long as I do not try to grow anything too elaborate. Also it sounds like for a tank that size you may need to add more fish. The plants thrive on the waste produced from the fish. Plant food will also help if you have some plants like amazon sword plants. The substrate you have is fine to grow plants in. There is no need to change it out unless you do not like the way it looks in your aquarium.

Marinemom

[Malefic23]

I was just thinking, plant food. Swords tend to need iron suppliments, and flourish makes a very good one. Or you could get the general flourish treatment, which will keep the swords looking good, but not growing huge, and should help everything else a good bit.

[Feafur]

Ok...I bought some seachem flourish excell....one bottle and then realized it said I needed to add almost a bottle of this DAILY! :( Man....having a big tank is expensive! DUH... I guess I need to go and buy ALOT more fish and ALOT more light. My lights that came with the tank say 25W...there are 4 of those and the full spectrum lights say 40W and there are 2....so I guess I don't even have close to what I need light wise. Oh...the tank is 24" tall. I do have about 3-4" of gravel and sand on the bottom.

[jtburf]

well, you could go and get some plant substrate, sometimes it is really cheap, here atleast, and mix it in with the sand. I'm just curuise as to what it is stocked as for now.

[Feafur]

Sad to say ( and people who are dying to fill a large tank will quiver )
It only has 2 green spotted puffers, 3 glass fish, 2 albino tiger barbs, 1 large pleco, 1 cory cat and 1 danio...whom I haven't seen in a little while! )
Any suggestions on types of fish I could add that wouldn't cost me a fortune? My biggest wish is to have some discus, but I'm still doing research on them and making sure I can handle the pressure of such delicate fish! I want to do everything right before adding something like that! I have a really good deal on buying a large group of them.... 6 for 170.00 and that includes shipping, but I haven't done it just yet!

[Draal5]

Discus are mot that difficult to keep. Discus juvenile fish are hard as they are can be easily stunted need daily water changes of 50% and low mineral water and 4-5 times a day feeding.

Adults can be kept in almost any water.

Your puffers will be the problem with stocking your tank. a large school of neons,cardinals or black neons is really cool in a large tank.

If you increase your lighting with out adding co2 and fertalizers you will have a big problem with algae burst.

Head over to theplantedtank.com (http://theplantedtank.com) and read up it has taken me a full year and lots of reading the forums to get to where I can not kill every plant I buy.

flourish excell is not a fertilizer it is a co2 supplement (there is more to it than that) and is often used as an algae control when you double dose for 10 days.

good luck (just have a lot of patients)

[Coral Keeper]

You should add a few angelfish.

[Star_Rider]

I agree discus as adults are not difficult to keep..neither are the juvies..in a large planted tank you do not need to do 50% daily water changes even for discus.
the assumption for discus is they are in a grow out tank..need 4-5 feedings and remove uneaten food.

in a planted tank..the plants will consume the waste(ammonia,nitrites and nitrates) in a large tank it is difficult to make shifts in the water condition..meaning the tank is more stable..they should get daily water changes..enough to remove the uneaten food and replace the water..
they will be fine in most water..the less hard the better but even they can adapt. young discus tend to be about 2" in size and should be raised in a Bare bottom..that said..they will grow in a large planted tank..mine did.

also sword plants are heavy root feeders..that means they do not derive most of their nutrition from the water column..you will need to add fert tabs for them..but they will be fine if you do that.
flourish excel has ferts its just heavier on carbon..

[red devil]

You need to get your water and plant situation well settled before you even think about adding discus. I have never done discus but have always been advised that this should not be a beginner's fish. One way around inadequate plant substrate is to plant plants in pots and then bury them in the substrate - bury the pots, not the plants :) Lights...if you need more, you need more. Has your tank cycled? What kind of filtration do you have? These things are not necessarily related to plants but you are talking about adding more fish, so you need to consider these things. RE: your plant that looks like bamboo, bamboo is not an underwater plant, even though many people try to sell it as such. If it is really bamboo you are probably lucky if it doesn't make it. If you look too many plants and need more look for creative sources of free/cheap plants. Check to see if there is a local fish club that will give/ sell for cheap some easy plants to help you continue. Also, if you have any ponds near your house consider them...but if you take plants from outside you should probably rinse them with a bleach solution first.

Congrats on taking this big step. Many people loose all of their stock and plants on their first attempt but the secret is to keep reading, asking and trying. You may have a lot of obstacles to overcome but once you have taken care of things you will feel really proud of your accomplishments...then you will be able to help people who post questions on this forum :)

[Feafur]

Thanks guys! I appreciate all the replies....
I had written to a guy months ago about his discus and he just wrote me back yesterday that he has 2 red melons and 7 diamonds...which are EXACTLY the types I was looking for and for very cheap! So....believe it or not, I'm considering it! I appreciate the encouragement that they are not as difficult as some have said....the blues are about 1 1/2" and the reds are adults. I also like the pot the plants idea...that way I could just pull them out and add some substrate to the roots and wouldn't have to redo the entire aquarium....but could give the plants what they need. Don't worry....I won't add the discus until I get my plants happy! Then I will work on getting my water right for the discus! Holy cow...I LOVE this site! You guys ROCK!
Would angels and discus get along in this size tank? I guess my puffers may have to go up for sale....the kids will be sad...they love those fish! Ah well...when they start paying for them....I'll care! ahhahhaha
Oh...I've had aquariums for years....just never a huge one like this!
Thanks again!
Kim

[loaches r cool]

Good luck on whatever you decide. Starting off with such a large tank & plants isnt the easiest way. I'd keep it low tech, and try and add plants that will be suitable for lower light and lower nutrient demands. For your swords you might add some root tabs like from Tropica, crypts, and java ferns would be good too. For tanks that size 2wpg will usually grow just about anything, for low tech I'd definately stay below that. CO2 will always help, but on low tech isnt as critical. And since no one has said it yet (I hate to be the stocking police) but the green spotted puffers arent really good comunity fish and is recommended to be in brackish and usually full marine as adults. Read up here (http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/ug.php/v/PufferPedia/Brackish/T_Nigroviridis/), and here (http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/puffers-in-focus/an-introduction-to-green-spotted-puffers/), just FYI. And BTW if you dont realize it yet but the link to your gallery in your first post requires a log in so we cant see them.

[Feafur]

yeah....I'm a little confused about the puffers. I bought these little guys at Walmart and I honestly read about them and looked up everything I could about them. I had cichlids in my tank when I originally purchased the puffers and a couple of "odd" fish that people had given me....a danio, some tetras....anyways...the GSP's have NEVER gone after any of my other fish. At first the larger one chased the little one around and now....it honestly looks as if they are a couple! I know people say they are impossible to breed....but, the larger one is laying under a rock most of the time and the smaller one is "guarding" the area. Every now and then they will come out and swim around and eat....but mostly they just hang out under that rock. I'm not sure, but I think I have really unusual puffers who love everyone! hahahahaha I watch my fish ALOT and they seriously never go after anyone...maybe I overfeed them and they are too fat to chase others! hahahha
Oh...on a really great note....as I was getting ready to turn out the lights tonight....I noticed some new growth on my "bamboo" looking plant.....these plants that I bought on ebay were supposed to be low light and NO CO2 plants...which is why I bought them in the first place.....do you think maybe they were just going through a transplant phase? Just wishful thinking...but, it looks like the bamboo looking stuff is gonna make it ( maybe to my dismay! ) I'll probalby have a jungle in there next week! hahahah Ok....don't wanna make you guys sick of me....I've turned this into a flippin' novel! Soooorrrryyyy....!
Kim

[Feafur]

I couldn't get the plantedtank to come up....acted like the link was broken!
Kim

[Feafur]

You need to get your water and plant situation well settled before you even think about adding discus. I have never done discus but have always been advised that this should not be a beginner's fish. One way around inadequate plant substrate is to plant plants in pots and then bury them in the substrate - bury the pots, not the plants :) Lights...if you need more, you need more. Has your tank cycled? What kind of filtration do you have? These things are not necessarily related to plants but you are talking about adding more fish, so you need to consider these things. RE: your plant that looks like bamboo, bamboo is not an underwater plant, even though many people try to sell it as such. If it is really bamboo you are probably lucky if it doesn't make it. If you look too many plants and need more look for creative sources of free/cheap plants. Check to see if there is a local fish club that will give/ sell for cheap some easy plants to help you continue. Also, if you have any ponds near your house consider them...but if you take plants from outside you should probably rinse them with a bleach solution first.

Congrats on taking this big step. Many people loose all of their stock and plants on their first attempt but the secret is to keep reading, asking and trying. You may have a lot of obstacles to overcome but once you have taken care of things you will feel really proud of your accomplishments...then you will be able to help people who post questions on this forum :)
Yes, my tank has cycled....I bought my tank used on ebay!!!! Got a great deal...only paid 611.00 for the tank, stand, 2 whisper power 60 filters, 1 magnum canister filter, lights and a bunch of odds and ends items! I was SO happy! Anyways...that gives you an idea of the filters and such! I will try again to link that kodak gallery here....
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=12466829608.521580432208.1189822755932&page=1
I think the password for it is 146336 and the email is feafur@yahoo.com
If anyone wants to see what is going on in the tank!
I am going to try some fertilizer and maybe the little potted plant idea too! Thanks a bunch!
Kim

[Sammie7]

Nice tank! You have your java fern's rhizome buried. It will die if kept like that. The rhizome is the horizontal bar that the roots come out of. If it's not above the substrate it won't have any circulation and it will rot away. Either tie the ferns to a piece of wood or a rock, or bury it so that only the roots are under the substrate. http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_javafern.php I can't see what bamboo-like plant you are talking about.

[galen]

how about some simpler, low-light plants, like some anubias and java ferns?

170 for 6 juv. discus is a good deal. shipping would prbly. put you at 250 altogether, which isnt bad considering the herd your getting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discus_(fish)

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/index.shtml

by the way, i like the setup of your tank right now. pic 15 is great- i love the puffer on the upper left! nice job!

[ThePBM]

flourish is not a good idea for larger tanks logistically, you're better off with root tabs.

[midiamin]

Well I didnt take the time to read all the information that has been given but here are a few things that I can offer. PUFFERS ARE FIN NIPPERS. So if you start to notice ragedy fins that is what is happening. They will nip a fish until it cannot swim and then have a feast. Substrate should be at least 2 inches deep.

[Feafur]

Ok! Yes, as you can see, I still have alot to learn. I will have to unbury the ferns this afternoon! I was going to see if I could do something better with the rocks too....maybe set them up in the middle somwhere. Also....I have a question about my bubble wand. If I cover it up with gravel/sand, it seems to get clogged and won't produce very many bubbles at all....but, I HATE the looks of it and don't want to see this unatural blue thing sitting at the bottom of my tank....any suggestions on that? How do I get an image in my reply? I've tried hitting that image deal and then copying and pasting it in the bar, but it comes up with an x every time!
http://www.kodakgallery.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=12466829608.992390542208.1189863055811&photoid=792390542208&folderid=0&view=1&page=1&sort_order=&albumsperpage =&navfolderid=2007

[Feafur]

Oopss....what I was going to say about that picture is it's the one with the "bamboo" in the center. If anyone knows the name of this plant...that would be good! :) Also...does anyone know where I can get REALLY high wattage bulbs that don't cost a fortune? Like an idiot...I thought there was 2 bulbs in each light, but there is a reflector beside the light...so I don't even have as much wattage as I originally thought....shheeessh....I feel like a real knucklehead today! hahahhaha
I really appreciate all your help guys!
Kim

[Sammie7]

Oopss....what I was going to say about that picture is it's the one with the "bamboo" in the center.
Kim


Here ya go. I'd have never seen that plant before.

All you have to do is go into the image section(which it seems you know how to do). Then use the one for uploading images from your computer(you must have the pic saved on your harddrive). Browse your folders and find the image. Then upload it. Pretty simple. I'm not sure how the uploading from a url works.

[Feafur]

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos4052/2/12/35/73/17/8/817733512208_0_ALB.jpgOK...let me see if this works....I just hit copy and paste...is that what you meant? I'm sorry, I'm not very computer savy either. Man, you're probably all really starting to wonder about me! hahahaha OH, well....at least I'm trying!
Oh, I got some Jobe fert sticks....I can't remember where I read that or if one of you suggested it, but I'm going to try putting them under sometime this weekend. Hope it helps. what I read said to break the stick into 4 pieces and push it under the plant. We'll see....Kim

[Feafur]

Ok....trying to see if this works....
Kim

http://www.kodakgallery.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=12466829608.992390542208.1189949434702&photoid=792390542208&folderid=0&view=1&page=1&sort_order=&albumsperpage =&navfolderid=2007