Fertilizer Recommendations & Info - the Informal FAQ

[nanahachi]

Plant maintenance and fertilizers can seem truly daunting at first. I was certainly overwhelmed when I first discovered all of this. but thanks to the insight and kindness of the people here at AC, I've been able to get a better understanding of it all, and I want to share this with the AC community.

So, in an attempt to collect and consolidate information regarding fertilzers, I have searched this forum and pasted some good snippets below. This is not written in stone. If corrections or additions need to be made, please do so. But maybe we should keep this like an FAQ (read: minimal OT discussion :p ) for AC members to refer to when they are wondering what fertilizers to use .


Absolute Must Haves - Traces & Macros (N, P, K)

For Traces - use Flourish - 10mls 2x week
For Nitrate (N) - use (KNO3), such as Spectracide Stump Remover, Salt Petre, Green Light Stump Remover, Grant's Stump Remover
For Phosphate (P) - use Fleet Enema (KH2PO4) - 3 or 4 drops after water change. Test at mid week and if under .5ppm dose again to reach 1.0ppm.
For Potassium (K) - use No-Salt / Nu-Salt (KCL) - 1/4 tsp. per 20 gals. after water change. Or you can mix a stock solution and keep in the refrigerator. Mix 1tbsp. K2SO4 with tap water in a 300ml bottle. Shake WELL until dissolved and dose 10ml 2x week in a tank of 30 gal. and over and 1x week in a tank smaller than 30 gal.


Should Haves - Micronutrients
For Magnesium - use Epsom Salt
For Iron - use Flourish Iron - 5mls per 20 gals. 2x week
For Carbon - use Flourish Excel &/or CO2 injection (DIY or pressurized)
To increase KH (Carbonate Hardness) - Baking Soda or Crushed Coral
Nutrients for plant roots – Jobes (fern & palm) or Flourish "Root tabs"


What AC members have said:

aquatix02:
to put it simply, aquatic plants require the following:

1. quality and bright lighting.
2. proper substrate with high cation ability and root fertilizer
3. carbon dioxide gases
4. liquid trace elements

in general, if you purchase good quality flourescent lights (for eg. Arcadia brand, 1-2W/gallon) meant for tropical freshwater tanks, use a 3-inch depth of 1-2mm sized gravel substrate mixed with flourite (plant growing substrate), add fertilizer tablets into the substrate and add liquid fertilizer in small amounts daily (during a fish feeding time), most plants would be able to do well.

however as pointed out by Oriongirl, if you want a real overgrowth of plants in the tank, CO2 will be essential as its effects are very obvious within a short period of time. as CO2 units are expensive, DIY sources or an increase in the number of fishes in the tank may also help.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5378


carpguy:
Macros are Nitrogen, Phosphate, and Potassium or N, P, K. They are the macronutrients as opposed to the micronutrients (Iron and other minerals). I use Flourish and Flourish Iron for micros, (am about to try some Flourish tabs because I feel like I space on micros too often). I use Spectracide Stump Remover to supplement Nitrate, NuSalt for Potassium, and Fleet Enema for Phosphate (just a few drops).
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11195


TwoTankAdmin:
Tropica Mastergrow for the water.
Aquarium Pharm Root Tabs w/iron and Jobes Fern & Palm spikes for the gravel.
Fourish Excel for carbon usable by plants in the water.
Flourish Iron in water every other week esp with red or heavily planted tanks.

Liquids are best dosed daily in smaller amounts than weekly in larger doses. Gravel ferts should be added at least every 3 months.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8110


gnome: (in the same thread as above)
I was too embarrassed to buy a FLEET . It was just my luck that the last time I decided to buy a couple of items from ThatPetPlace, I happened to find that they carried Flourish Phosphorus. I think it must be a fairly new product in the Flourish line. They had Flourish Nitrogen, as well. I know they've had Flourish Potassium for a while...

I like that it has dosing directions. I'd think there would be a greater tendency to overdose with FLEET, and aside from my being self-conscious about buying it, I would have been concerned about adding too much. With a large enough tank, however, there's more room for error and the FLEET might be an economical option.

I agree that Tropica Master Grow is a good product for traces, but right now I'm trying to finish an endless bottle of Flourish. For macros, I use stump remover (KNO3) and sulphate of potash (K2SO4). I've also found that for some plants, the Jobe's fertilizer spikes do wonders - just make sure you use sparingly and bury the pieces very deep. I also dose with Flourish Iron and as I mentioned already, Flourish Phosphorus. And I have noticed that my plants that are planted in Flourite are much more robust than those growing in sand or coarse gravel.


anonapersona: (in the same thread as above)
Basically, rooted plants may do fine with substrate fertilizers, but the sticks that many use are bad about creating algae if they are disturbed. If you have stem plants or plants that are on rocks or wood, like java fern and the like, you'll probably need fertilizers in the water column.

You can't go wrong with the Seachem line, or so I hear from those that use it. I was pleased with the Dupla24 drops that I used daily, though they ran out pretty quickly.

The reason that everyone keeps directing you to the home-made fertilizers is that you will go broke trying to fertilize the big tank. For example, Nutrafin Plant Gro iron enriched was about $8 at the Local Fish Store. 5 ml/10 gallons or 50 ml/100 gallon tank.... replace the bottle after 4 3/4 doses. They do not mention how often that might be but let's assume weekly. So, $8/month.

On the other hand, for $11 including shipping, I got a few years worth of traces, and for a year or more's worth of KNO3 was $2 at the feed store. For $7 I got 40 lbs of KCl which I am using up at about 1.5 grams per month so this will last me about 1000 years. I don't do phosphate yet, but I know I can get the Fleet stuff for $1 on sale at Walgreens from time to time.


plantbrain – Tom Barr:
Trace= the flourish, this will help. Add 5mls 2x aweek.
Flourish potassium: Add enough to get 20ppm once a week.

Do 50% weekly water changes. Call tap water company, see what the PO4 is or if they add polyphosphates to their/your supply. If so, that will take care of the PO4 needs of the plants.

K2SO4 is cheaper than Flourish K+/potassium. 5$ worth would last 10 years, maybe more for all the K+ needs.
KNO3 can be added if the levels dips down below 5ppm. About the same cost as the K2SO4.

For some more info:
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/fert/...est_index1.html

You'll spend much less time measuring and guessing if you do a simple routine.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7864


djlen:
If you want to dose K, why not pick up some K2SO4 or KCl which can be bought at your supermarket either with the salt products or in the dietary dept under the name 'NoSalt' or 'NuSalt'
K2SO4(Potassium Sulfate) is cheaper than KCl, but a little tougher to find. Can be bought on-line here: www.litemanu.com
Go to 'Shop on line' - Nutrients - Chemicals and scroll down to Potassium Sulfate.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12383

Re: Crushed Coral: If you go to LFS and ask, they will probably give you a couple of cups full of crushed coral that they use in their salt water tanks. Most stores usually have some laying around. Put 1/2 tbsp. in a small nylon bag and put it into your filter. It will help raise your kH and you won't have to mess with it after that unless you want the kH higher(add another 1/4tbsp).
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10429


Slappy*McFish:
Flourish Excel is a decent source of carbon for moderately lit tanks, tanks with low pH and very little kH(as it doesn't cause pH crashes)..and for tanks on the small/med size range. The cost of flourish excel would make it expensive to use on large tanks, and it isn't nearly as good as using CO2 injection for high light tanks. I use it as a DIY CO2 supplement on my tanks..mainly on my 10 gallon that has 3wpg of lighting that I can't seem to achieve high enough CO2 levels with the DIY CO2 and HOB filter.

Root tabs are great for swords, crypts, anubias, and other "rooted" type plants..especially when first added to a "virgin" substrate. They aren't absolutely necessary, however, in mature flourite/onyx sand containing substrates with a good amount of fish mulm present within. I no longer use root tabs in my substrates for this very reason. However, if I purchase a "new" rooted-plant, I might add a root tab near it's base to help it get established.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11191

[djlen]

Excellent Job Nanahachi,
I would only include Salt Petre as an alternative for KNO3.
And I'm told that the Flourish Root Tabs for "ponds" are exactly the same ingredients as the regular Flourish Root Tabs, and you get twice as many tablets in the box.
This should definitely be a Sticky. It's like an instant reference for the new-comers who ask the usual beginner questions.

Here are two more products that are 100% KNO3 and can be used for dosing N:
Green Light Stump Remover
Grant's Stump Remover - this one is a bit more difficult to measure as it comes in pellet form rather than a fine powder.
Available at Ace Hardware and OSH.

Len

[NJ Devils Fan]

A while ago when I asked what fertilizers to get, someone told me that all flourish excel was was just watered down flourish. The problem I had was that I was getting a lot of black algae on my plants, it was beating the plants to the nutrients. The CO2 wasn't enough. So, I got Flourish, flourish Potassium, and flourish Phosphate, all made by Seachem. I took all the algae out by hand whatever I could get, and I've been adding my fertilizers 2x a week and I have been making sure my DiY CO2 is flowing ok. I have not seen any algae since, and that was over 2 months ago. If algae grows on plants, it usually means that something is not ballanced. You could have too much light and not enough CO2 or visa-versa. In my case, I did not have enough nutrients in the water, and what little nutrients that were there, the algae was beating the plants too it.

EDIT: spelling

[cpr4cpu]

great post, but be cautios with your quantites. I saw Plantbrains recommendation of 5ML of FLourish a day. That would be for a 125-150 gallon tank, 2ML a day for a 55 gallon tank.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
this link is a quick calculator of how much dry powder to mix to get your tank where you want it (as well as recommendations for target quantities for each nutrient)

Potassium Nitrate is a fireworks chemical, available all over the place (skylighter.com) and is a good source of Nitrate. Let's use that to calculate the dose using the link above.

First fill in the gallons for your tank size, then the quantity of solution you want to mix up (250 or 500 ML are best). This is how much water you will want ot have in the container to mix the powder into. I personally mix 250 ML of solution with 8 teaspoons and then add 50ML of the solution a day. Each ML will increase my tank concentration by .23 ppm, 4ML adds almost 1 ppm of nitrate. I like to try to keep my nitrates around 15.

Now, as for chemicals, I get all mine from Off-ice.
plantgeek.net

[happychem]

Great post, one comment, both KNO3 (for nitrate) and KH2PO4 (for phosphate) also contain potassium (K). I haven't actually calculated the doses, but I'm guessing that they alone would provide sufficient K.

[Mordred]

A question for clarification on the following:

"For Potassium (K) - use No-Salt / Nu-Salt (KCL) - 1/4 tsp. per 20 gals. after water change. Or you can mix a stock solution and keep in the refrigerator. Mix 1tbsp. K2SO4 with tap water in a 300ml bottle. Shake WELL until dissolved and dose 10ml 2x week in a tank of 30 gal. and over and 1x week in a tank smaller than 30 gal."

I looked in my local stores in the UK and couldn't find this brand. All the brands that I found are 50% KCL and 50% NaCL - can these be used or does it have to be 100% NaCL? Havent managed to find K2SO4 anywhere.

[happychem]

From a strictly chemical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with it per se, except you'd need to double the doseage. From a fish/plant physiology standpoint, I'm not sure. I wouldn't think that the quantities suggested, even when doubled, would be sufficient to affect any plants/fish sensitive to salt. But then, maybe some people more experienced in fish keeping could answer that. Perhaps this discussion should be it's own thread, not in the sticky.

[Earthie_chick]

do you know anything about Terracycle plant food specifically. I saw this brand on homedepot.com

[terror]

hi how about using fertilizers not meant for aquarium plants?
like growmore orchid fertilizer meant for orchids?

30-10-10 formula?
i'm planning on experimenting on my anubias plants...
do you guys this this could work?

[happychem]

No. As you've noticed we try to keep NO3 around 10 and PO4 around 1, that's a 10:1 ratio. The Orchid ferts have a 3:1 ratio, in other words, you'd end up with abour 3 times the PO4 you'd need. I think that it's a recipe for disaster, i.e. algae.

As a rule, using ferts for terrestrial plants, i.e. what you'll find at home depot, will be a)too strong or b)mixed in the wrong ratio. Plus, you'll likely find that as your tank evolves, you'll need to change the amount of N or P or K or traces that your tank receives, so premixed ferts aren't a good call, IMO. Get the individuals as recomended in the thread and mix your own using Chuck Gadd's aquarium calculator.

[terror]

btw what happens when you overdose with k or n or p?

[happychem]

Within reason, not too much. But if you really go overboard you'd probably end up with algae, but I'm not too sure, I've never gone too crazy.

[geoffgarcia]

Anyone know how to figure out how to calculate PPM?
In particular:

Flourish Phosphorus
(2.5mL for 10 gallons raises phosphorus by 0.10 mg/L (0.30 mg/L phosphate))
What ppm of phosphate would that be?

Flourish Iron
(1 mL for 10 gallons for 0.10 mg/L iron)
What ppm of iron would that be?

Flourish Nitrogen
??


I figured out:
Flourish Potassium
5 mL for 30 gallons raises potassium by 2 mg/L
The recommended dose of Flourish Potassium will increase potassium levels by 1 ppm

Based on this tidbit of info from the Potassium, should I assume that 2mg/L = 1ppm is a standard rule of thumb?

[happychem]

1ppm = 1mg/L

working backwards:
1ppm is 1uL of solute per L of water (the u should be the greek letter mu which means one millionth of whatever unit follow (litre in this case).

Water has a density of 1g/mL or 1mg/uL

Therefore:
1ppm=1uL/L=1mg/L

Since the solutions are dilute, we assume that whatever is added to the water (PO4, NO3, K, Fe, etc.) has no appreciable effect on density, and therefore 1mg/L=1ppm by very good assumption.

[Harlock]

Here's a Newbie question and hopefully I'm not the only peson who has ever worried about this regarding Dosing Fertilizers:

Do I need to dose ferts at any certain time? I mean like 2 hours after feeding my fish or something like that, so as to give the fertilizers time to dilute through the water column and not end up concentrated in some fishes belly?

[happychem]

I usually do it first thing in the morning, before the lights come on, I feed my fish in the evening when I come home from work.

[Homebrewhead]

These products you mention:

Stump Remover? For removing stumps outside in the ground?

Flourish, is this a Pet Store product or a Plant Store Product?

And Fleet Enema, is this a drug store item?

Nu-Salt, a Grocery Store item?


Need help on my situation. I initially got a tank as a gift. So we threw some gravel in, corny Pirate's chest, etc.

But after looking at some of the beautiful tanks out there I decided I wanted a natural planted tank with the most colorful fish available.

I have gravel in the tank, I'm reading Flourite is the substate to have.

Will Jobes Fern & Palm spikes be okay? What do I do with my Fish if I have to swap out the gravel?

I swear no one at Petsmart/Petco know what they are talking about! :mad2

Even my LFS can't answer my questions!

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Harlock]

These products you mention:

Stump Remover? For removing stumps outside in the ground?Yip, that's it. You can find it ni larger Home and Garden Centers for a decent price.
Flourish, is this a Pet Store product or a Plant Store Product?Pet store product. It's made by Seachem specifically for FW aquaria
And Fleet Enema, is this a drug store item?Correct. Most grocery stores in the US carry them in their drug aisles as well.
Nu-Salt, a Grocery Store item?Yes. Look in the spice section for salt substitutes like Mrs. Dash. It'll be around there.
Need help on my situation. I initially got a tank as a gift. So we threw some gravel in, corny Pirate's chest, etc.

But after looking at some of the beautiful tanks out there I decided I wanted a natural planted tank with the most colorful fish available.

I have gravel in the tank, I'm reading Flourite is the substate to have.

Will Jobes Fern & Palm spikes be okay? What do I do with my Fish if I have to swap out the gravel? I and several others around here dislike the jobes spikes. They contain ammonia and urea. Those can cause problems if you move plants around (I do all the time, I assume someone starting out would). Seachem makes a root tab you could check out. Flourite is a very popular substrate. I use plain old Pool Filter Sand with decent results. Most plants seem to draw the nutrients frm the water column as much or more than the substrate.
I swear no one at Petsmart/Petco know what they are talking about! :mad2

Even my LFS can't answer my questions!

Any help would be appreciated.

ThanksWe've all been there. I learned more on this forum than I could have in weeks at my LFS. Good luck! Oh, and I wanted to tell you to check out Big Al's Online for cheap planted tank stuff like Flourish and Flourish Tabs. They have the best prices and they carry it always.

[Homebrewhead]

Thanks for the help.

One last question. How would I handle my fish if I want to add Flourite to my tank?

Thanks again.

[Harlock]

You're very welcome. As for swapping substrate, I've never done it. I did a search on the forums and found this thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40146&highlight=changing+substrate) from a while back. Seemed to have some decent advice from some folks I trust. Give it a read.

[happychem]

Just a point, Fluorite can be messy, if you tried to add it to the tank with standing water, it will be a great big haze. Empty the tank completely, lay down the Fluorite then fill the tank very gently, pouring the water over a saucer.

[Swimfins]

I'd just remove everything, put the fish in buckets ( brand new buckets, no soap or cleaners ever in them). Remove most of the old substrate, leave some on the bottom, and add the new substrate (make sure its rinsed, rinsed rinsed rinsed rinsed rinsed.beforehand..especially with fourite!! or else you'll end up with a yucky tank and nowhere to put the fish!!) Save some of the old substrate and sprinkle it in an inconspicuous spot.

[SnakeIce]

Here are two more products that are 100% KNO3 and can be used for dosing N:
Green Light Stump Remover
Grant's Stump Remover - this one is a bit more difficult to measure as it comes in pellet form rather than a fine powder.
Len

I found that useing a small stone morter and pestle as found in high end cooking supplies outlets you can reduce the Grants Stump Remover to a fine powder with a little work.

[Zongyi]

Sorry, but I am a newbie at this. Would it be safe to add all these chemicals at once (in the correct dosage of course) into a tank? Would the chemicals counteract each other or effect each other? Thanks in advance :) .

[happychem]

They are fine all at once. However, there is a possibility that trace elements might react with PO4, so normally traces are dosed on alternate days. I doubt that there's much likelihood, given the low concentrations, but there it is.

[Zongyi]

Thanks for the reply. I have another problem; I am haveing trouble finding some of these products in Canada. Can a Canadian member please tell me which stores to look or which asile to look in?
Spectracide Stump Remover, Salt Petre, Green Light Stump Remover, Grant's Stump Remover - I am thinking Home Depot, but I havn't checked there yet. The few stores I checked didn't know what this was.

Fleet Enema (KH2PO4) - I tried looking in a pharmacy in Walmart with no luck. I am thinking it will be in the vitamin suppliments section.

No-Salt - I have no idea what this is or what it is for, so I have no clue which stores to look in. Someone said it is grocery salt, so will table salt do?

Epsom Salt - I am assuming this is a brand of seasoning salt, so I looked in the salt asle. Is this normal table salt? How is it different from No-salt?

Thanks for the help :) .

[happychem]

I've been through this myself, so perhaps I can help.

First off, if you know a couple of others around you (try your local aquarium society) who are also looking, then you can just order from www.gregwatson.com
The only reason I suggest having a few other on board is because the shipping is pretty steep for just one person. I ordered with two others and even after shipping Greg was the cheapest source for all our fert. needs.

My only complaint, which has nothing to do with Greg or his operation, is that I don't like the CSM+B trace mix. I'll use it until I run out, but the trace mix I got locally was better. The CSM+B stuff gets mouldy unless refrigerated and contains less Iron then the local stuff.

Another option is to phone your local hydroponics stores. A lot of the ones around here just sell mixtures, no good. But one or two have the individual dry ferts and it's just a little more expensive then ordering from Greg (if you have a few people, cheaper if it was just me).

If you want to go more DIY, here's a run down:
Fleet you can definitely get at a pharmacy. Go into Shoppers and ask for it, or just look for the Enemas if you're shy. Check the ingredients, you're looking for sodium (or potassium) phosphate (mono or dibasic).

NoSalt/NuSalt is not table salt. Table salt is NaCl, No/NuSalt is KCl. Look for it in the "Spices" Aisle, it's not cheap but will last you a long time. It also tastes like crap which makes me wonder how anyone could use it as a salt "alternative". ;)

Epsom Salt is MgSO4 (Magnesium sulphate/sulfate). They usually have it at Walmart in the pharmacy section. You can get a ton of it for about $5. Look around in the bath stuff section, it's usually for adding to baths.

[GregWatson]

I've been through this myself, so perhaps I can help.

First off, if you know a couple of others around you (try your local aquarium society) who are also looking, then you can just order from www.gregwatson.com
The only reason I suggest having a few other on board is because the shipping is pretty steep for just one person. I ordered with two others and even after shipping Greg was the cheapest source for all our fert. needs.

My only complaint, which has nothing to do with Greg or his operation, is that I don't like the CSM+B trace mix. I'll use it until I run out, but the trace mix I got locally was better. The CSM+B stuff gets mouldy unless refrigerated and contains less Iron then the local stuff.

Happychem:

Drop me an email message sometime soon and let me send you some new trace mix I've been trying out for the last week ... you can let me know what you think of it. It's 15% Iron, more than twice what Plantex CSM has in it.

Here's the catch with "trace" mixes ... some chelators are stronger than others forcing plants to expend a greater amount of energy to break the chelator bond with the element that the plants want to consume. Now I'm not the scientist type person, so I can't tell you much about the different chelators ... just that it is an issue ...

Thanks,
Greg

P.S. I've never had Plantex CSM get moldy ... but I also store it in a white plastic bottle and never make up more than about a two month supply at a time (<grin> ... and I use aquarium water teaming with all kinds of live things to make it up <grin>) ... I really think that an opaque bottle makes all the difference.

[reiverix]

I stopped making CSM+B mixes because of a problem with it going 'lumpy'. Nowadays I just add 1/4 tsp (~1.5 grams) to some water, give it a shake, and into the tank it goes.

[happychem]

Here's the catch with "trace" mixes ... some chelators are stronger than others forcing plants to expend a greater amount of energy to break the chelator bond with the element that the plants want to consume. Now I'm not the scientist type person, so I can't tell you much about the different chelators ... just that it is an issue ...
Indeed (I did honour's research on chelates), but I wonder if a stronger chelate is a good thing or a bad thing. The chelates are there to keep the metal in reduced form, so a weak chelate might just mean that the element gets oxidized quickly, also requiring the plant to expend more energy to first reduce the element before use. Perhaps the ideal is somewhere in between?

[Mykayel]

For Potassium (K) - use No-Salt / Nu-Salt (KCL) - 1/4 tsp. per 20 gals. after water change. Or you can mix a stock solution and keep in the refrigerator.

Why is it nessecary to refrigerate? And are there any others that when kept in solution are required to be refrigerated?

[happychem]

The potassium mix needn't be refrigerated. But trace mixes should be kept in a cool, dark place.

[telecubby]

hi how about using fertilizers not meant for aquarium plants?
like growmore orchid fertilizer meant for orchids?

30-10-10 formula?
i'm planning on experimenting on my anubias plants...
do you guys this this could work?


NO WAY too much nitrate you would need a diferant formula all together 30 10 10 is way off , check the numbers of your lfs plantfood products to get an idea of what rage you need,one of the number(maybe the 1st) should be 1 or 2 not 30 or 10 if you see where im going with this.Theres a great thread on plants in here AquqriumCentral search freswater topics or plants I 4get where I saw it . Nanahatchi Fertilizer Recomendations & info is one

[GregWatson]

NO WAY too much nitrate you would need a diferant formula all together 30 10 10 is way off , check the numbers of your lfs plantfood products to get an idea of what rage you need,

I think he wanted to make a statement <grin>... or at least make sure we didn't miss it <grin>...

But he is right ...

However, there is an even more critical concern ... you also need to check what "form" that Nitrate would be in ... in most cases a very large amount of that is in an Amonium Nitrate form or some variation of amonia ... which is esseentially an instant algae bloom ...

Greg

[beviking]

Happychem:

Drop me an email message sometime soon and let me send you some new trace mix I've been trying out for the last week ... you can let me know what you think of it. It's 15% Iron, more than twice what Plantex CSM has in it...
Thanks,
Greg

P.S. I've never had Plantex CSM get moldy ... but I also store it in a white plastic bottle and never make up more than about a two month supply at a time (<grin> ... and I use aquarium water teaming with all kinds of live things to make it up <grin>) ... I really think that an opaque bottle makes all the difference.

*cough* free trace mix...uh, mine is moldy too... :joke:
I store my dry CSM+B in zip-loc bag within a paper bag in the tank stand...been several months (a year?). No mold! If I ever use it up (few more months?) I'll be ordering the new iron rich stuff! :thm:

[wraithrose]

Has anyone tried using volcanic clay gravel. it has a large quanity of those minerals in it. ????

[Roan Art]

Okay, I think I've read this thread a zillion times. Maybe it's me, but I'm confused about one thing . . .

I know WHAT to dose and HOW to dose, but I don't see anything on WHY and WHEN to dose? I guess that would be a WHYN :D

I guess I'm leary of starting a chem war in my tank and don't want to add stuff where stuff isn't needed.

I haven't gotten the CO2 working 100% as yet so the following is based on IF and WHEN I get it running properly:

If my nitrate levels are above 0, is that an indication that I don't need to add more nitrates?

Phosphates, PO4 -- my tap water is 2+ off the chart somewhere and my tank after about a week or so reads 1.0. If it stays above 0, does that mean I need to add more?

How do I know if my plants need a certain mineral or whatever? Do I wait unitl they exhibit some defficiency? Or do I just dump stuff in?

Same with Iron and all that other good stuffs. I have an iron test and after a week I'm at .1mg/l, but I do not have a potassium test kit et al. Is that needed?

Betcha I'm making this more difficult than need be, but I can't see just sloshing stuff into my tank without a reason.

Roan

[GregWatson]

Betcha I'm making this more difficult than need be, but I can't see just sloshing stuff into my tank without a reason.

Roan

Back when you were in school ... you learned about nutrition in a health class somewhere along the line ...

Plants need to be fed ... and they need to be fed a well balanced diet ...

What happens to you if you do not eat a well balanced diet? Malnutrition, susceptibility to disease ... and you start to waste away ...

Your plants are no different ... if you do not feed your plants ... you are essentially starving them ... and condeming them to a slow death ...

Plants need to be fed ... they need to be fed a well balanced diet ... and they need to be fed in a consistent timely manner ...

Greg

[Roan Art]

Exactly, but if I'm eating broccoli and liver every day and supplement that with an iron supplement, that's overkill, no?

I'm used to mammal diets, horses in particular. Dunno much about plants :) Having an imbalance of something, say potassium and phosphorus, can lead to a lot of health problems in horses.

What about plants? What happens to plants when they get too much phosphates? Iron? Magnesium? Do they just ignore it when there's too much, or do they try to use it and cause other problems? :huh:

Roan

[GregWatson]

Exactly, but

1. Feed your plants ...
2. Feed your plants a well balanced diet ...
3. Feed your plants on a regular basis ...

It really can't get any more simple than that <grin> ...

Do you or I *personally* understand every single subtle nuance of the bio-chemical interactions in your body? Do you or I need to in order to eat a relatively well balanced diet? No.

... you and I have been taught the general broad concepts about how to eat. When you or I sit down for breakfast, do we read the label of everything you are going to eat and then figure out the 1,000 biochemical responses for every single item? When you or I sit down for lunch, do we read the label of everything you are going to eat and then figure out the 1,000 biochemical resonspes for every single item? When you or I sit down for dinner, do we read the label of everything you are going to eat and then figure out the 1,000 biochemical responses for every single item?

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about many of the physiological interactions ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about many of the biochemical interactions ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about dosing strategies ... how much, how often, and when ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about plant nutritional deficiencies ...

Encylocpedias worth of technical details ...

To the extent that you desire ... all of this is a browser click away for your reading pleasure ...

The key is understand the relevance of that information ... is it relevant to the knowledge that you need to feed your plants ...

Obviously - in general - most of it is not relevant to our personal lives ... you and I haven't needed to understand the 1,000 biochemical and physiological consequences of each type of food and nutrient you consume for breakfast ...

What has been relevant to you and I ... is that we both know that we generally need to eat a well balanced diet and that there are consequences if we don't ...

I personally don't want to have to earn a PHD is plant phsyiology before I am allowed to feed my plants <grin> ...

I took the time to read the valuable contributions that my fellow hobbyist have written ... I listened to their advice about different dosing strategies ... I chose a strategy that made the most sense to me ... and I chose a strategy that matched my lifestyle ...

I then fed my plants ... in an incredibily simple and straight forward manner ...

I have four undergraduate degrees ... one of the philosophies of the University was "Applied Science" ... their emphasis was on the ability to "Apply" concepts in the real world ... all of the theory and all of the king's horses can't put humpty dumpty together again - if you can not "Apply" what you know ...

It's that concept of real world applications that taught me more than anything else I learned ... I learned how to cut through all of the noise and find the key concepts that were relevant and necessary to apply to the real world ...

I would encourage you to cut through all of the noise ... find a dosing strategy that makes sense to you and matches your lifestyle ... then apply it to your aquarium ... you might be suprised to find that it works ...

And over time ... as your experience grows ... your knowledge and understanding of this vast hobbyist encyclopedia will grow as well ... and based on your real world experiences, you will be better equipped to interpret what of that encylopedic knowledge is relevant and what is not ...

Good luck ... but I would encourage you to actually "apply" the concepts and practices that you have already learned from your fellow hobbyists ...

Best of wishes ... feed your plants ...

Greg

[Roan Art]

1. Feed your plants ...
2. Feed your plants a well balanced diet ...
3. Feed your plants on a regular basis ...
It really can't get any more simple than that <grin> ...
Yes, master. :bowing:
Must. feed. plants.

Why do I feel like I just stumbled into the Little Shop of Horrors? :eek:


All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about many of the physiological interactions ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about many of the biochemical interactions ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about dosing strategies ... how much, how often, and when ...

All over the web, there is an abundance of very very technical details about plant nutritional deficiencies ...

I really hope you copied and pasted that, or your hands are gonna hate you :)


. . .
I would encourage you to cut through all of the noise ... find a dosing strategy that makes sense to you and matches your lifestyle ... then apply it to your aquarium ... you might be suprised to find that it works ...Unless the algae finds it works better?


And over time ... as your experience grows ... your knowledge and understanding of this vast hobbyist encyclopedia will grow as well ... and based on your real world experiences, you will be better equipped to interpret what of that encylopedic knowledge is relevant and what is not ...

Good luck ... but I would encourage you to actually "apply" the concepts and practices that you have already learned from your fellow hobbyists ...

Best of wishes ... feed your plants ...Boy, I've been told!

I will use the Ferts. I will trust in the Ferts. I will ignore the Dark Side of too much technical verbage and just DO it. I will wield my Fleet Enema with confidence, knowing that I dose for the good of the Plant Republic.

I need more coffee. :coffee2:


Hrm, in case it doesn't show, thank you. Sometimes I need a kick in the butt :)
Roan

[EcoPit]

I went out this weekend and bought almost everything on the list. I am having trouble with the stump remover, but I will keep looking. I was hoping to find dosing instructions now, but I read this thread more closely today and see that there are none. Dosing requirements are different between tanks and will change over time. So basically, dose and test, dose and test, until I figure out what the correct dosing is for my tank, right? Then, what is the target concentration for each nutrient? And, do they make tests for micronutrients? The Flourish w/ Iron I could add per label instructions, but I am concerned about the Epsom Salt. I have not seen a Magnesium test kit.

[beviking]

:thud: If only he put THAT much effort into getting the extra iron!!! :D

Roan, pick something and go with it. Change it down the road if you encounter a problem. If there is iron, phosphorus, in your water already, don't dose it. Your dosing regime will change anyway and you're free to change it anytime. You'll get the nack of what is deficient with experience. To single anything out though, only change one thing and wait a week or two to be sure that one thing was the cause.

EcoPit, this link http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm is all over these boards. It is a good bookmark/favorite to add to your list! Micros you dose according to the label and as stated earlier, you're free to change it down the road. If things look better after the change, continue to do it. If not, go back to what you were doing. Stump remover is a seasonal item and can be hard to find. Mg can be figured if you know your GH and Calcium level. Or, if you know how much is in your source water via city water report or the like.

[Roan Art]

:thud: If only he put THAT much effort into getting the extra iron!!! :DBoy, would I like to know that story behind that :)


Roan, pick something and go with it. Change it down the road if you encounter a problem. If there is iron, phosphorus, in your water already, don't dose it. Your dosing regime will change anyway and you're free to change it anytime. You'll get the nack of what is deficient with experience. To single anything out though, only change one thing and wait a week or two to be sure that one thing was the cause.
Good advice! Much thanks :)

I think, for now, I'll just use Flourish on this 36g and see how it goes. Once I get the 75gs up and running, it'll be a whole new ballgame since the plants and lighting will be much different.

Roan

[EcoPit]

In the OP it says to add KNO3 for nitrate, but also KCl for Potassium. Is there not enough Potassium in the KNO3?

[happychem]

It depends on how much you add. Check out the Sticky written by Plantbrain (Tom Barr) about using KH2PO4 and KNO3 as the sole source of NO3.

From my own experience, my high light tank (which is dosed w/ KNO3 and KH2PO4 every other day) receives sufficient K from the NO3 and PO4 doses. In my lower growth tank the leaves start developing pinholes after several weeks.

[beviking]

I had looked at that, but couldn't figure it out. I took another look after your post and I think I have the mechanics of the calculator figured out. Thanks.

Geesh, I just re-read that reply of mine...I hope I didn't come across too snobby! :duh: Just because it's there doesn't mean everyone knows how to use it, sorry, and if you need any clarification...just ask! :)

[Onikun]

I agree with Roan Art, I'm trying Flourish and CO2 in my tank right now. All the other stuff sounds complicated and I don't even know if my plants need that extra stuff. I mean i dont even know why the plants need some of those and also how to dose it.

Why do we need to pute nitrate in? i thought we were trying to get rid of nitrate through water changes? If i have a decent stock of fish producing ammonia won't nitrate be produced via the nitrogen cycle?

[reiverix]

Why do we need to pute nitrate in? i thought we were trying to get rid of nitrate through water changes? If i have a decent stock of fish producing ammonia won't nitrate be produced via the nitrogen cycle?Nitrate = plant food.

Whether or not you need to dose nitrate depends on lighting, plant mass, fish species, tapwater content. I'm sure there's other variables. In a planted tank it's not a good idea to let the plants be deficient in nitrate.

[happychem]

It's not so much the NO3 that we're trying to rid our tanks of, but the other chemicals produced by the fish along with ammonia (such as hormones and pheromones).

If your plants are growing well your NO3 level be 0 ppm, which means no more food for the plants. As Reiverix said, not a good thing. Flourish is just traces, a great trace mix, granted, but your plants need macros primarily.

[blackthorne]

Hey guys,

Not sure if i missed something but I read through the topic and still have a few questions. How much nitrate do you guys shoot for. I have a decently stocked 55 gallon with plants and my nitrates are just under 5 ppm. Too low? Too high? Also I am currently using kent freshwater plant and kent pro plant. Does anyone know how these stack up? I know for a fact that they do not contain any nitrate or phosphates like the original post suggested having. So i guess my question is, if im using these two feralizers, what else would I need in addition for healthy plants? More nitrate? more phosphate? Doesnt phosphate promote algee growth though, or do the plants soak it up before the algee can get at it?

And with the nitrates, Im planning on stocking cherry shrimp which are very sensitive to nitrates. Anything over 10 would be too much for them.

Going off the top of my head because i not currently at home I believe that my fertalizers do have Potassium, magnesium, and iron, which were mentioned in the first post. As well as some other stuff. Again im not sure as i dont have the bottles readily at hand. I also have a bunch of DIY co2's setup for carbon. PH is about 7 and KH is about 5-6 so that comes to a bit under 20mg/l of CO2. I read this is a good level to have it at for your plants without harming fish. True? False?

And if it helps any I have about 4.5 watts per gallon. Compact flourecents at 6700k. And i have an R/O unit that I run all my water through. After i add kent r/o right and ph stable.

Many questions I know.. Thanks for any help in advance though.

[happychem]

Well, first of all, why the RO? You're spending a lot of time and money to (essentially) take stuff out, then spending some more money (RO right) to put it back.

Secondly, how are your plants growing? Generally, I shoot to keep my NO3 level between 10 ppm and 20 ppm. However, if your plants are growing well and you don't have any algal problems, I'd say don't change a thing.

[blackthorne]

Well, first of all, why the RO? You're spending a lot of time and money to (essentially) take stuff out, then spending some more money (RO right) to put it back.

you are correct, however the ro unit is more for the fish and less for the plants. I have sensitive fish like clown loaches and so I got the ro unit to get all the crap out, and as you said, in turn takes out all the good stuff too. So i need to put that all back in.


Secondly, how are your plants growing? Generally, I shoot to keep my NO3 level between 10 ppm and 20 ppm. However, if your plants are growing well and you don't have any algal problems, I'd say don't change a thing.

Plants are growing good but seems to be a little slow. I guess im not really sure how fast they are supposed to grow in perfect conditions anyway. Many of the plants i got for free and thus dont know the names of most of them. The ones i do know i have are an amazon sword, and some anubius. I do know that the anubius are supposed to be slow growing plants, but so far i have seen no growth from them at all in a three week period. is that normal for them?

otherwise algee seems to be very much in check.

[happychem]

Anubias is a very slow growing plant. On the flipside, it can tolerate low light, so it's ideal for most "stock" tanks.

[beviking]

What is in your water that is so harmful to loaches? Have you tried keeping them on tap water?

At your light level and with presence of CO2, bottled fertilizers aren't adequate at the "recommended" dosing levels, especially since you've removed any usable elements from the water to begin with. Double or even triple the doses recommended would be a good start.
Yes, nitrates and phosphates...the plants need them. I always had good luck sticking to 5ppm Nitrates/.5ppm phosphate using "medium" lighting. I think with higher light, you'd want to go higher. I recently upgraded lighting so am now shooting for 10ppm/.1ppm and I keep Cherry shrimp.

[loaches r cool]

I was reading over this sticky in search of info on the 2 Kent ferts mentioned, but it appears mostly everyone here does there own. One of the plant guru guys at the lfs here has an awsome plant tank and keyed me in on the kent ferts. I am just started them this week. FWIW I will post up the specs.

Kent Freshwater Plant 0-0-3
K2O 3%
Cu .00001%
Fe .24%
Mn .01%
Mo .0009%
Zn .00014%

Kent Pro Plant 1-0-0
N 1%
B .0002%
Mg .05%
S .06%

The recomended dose is 5-15ml/1-3tsp per 30gallons for each (they are meant to be used together). Niether contains no phosphates. Also says "Do not use more than twice the recommended dosage". So the two combined would be like 1-0-3 I guess.

I also ordered some flourish excell since so many here use it... dont know if I am going to use it also on my co2 tank or just one the couple that I dont have co2.

BTW blackthorne, I have 3 clowns and they have done just great with city water... even been through a few months of not changing the water (thanks to my former job working me to death lol). But I suppose the best water would be pure r/o water with only exactly what you need put back in. If you do this, then I guess more power to you :thm: but for most it might be unecesary.

[vidiots]

I am new to this site, and was reading through this thread. I found a number of posts made me laugh, while others disturbed me.

One of the most frequent questions I noticed was on how to know how much of or if add something. I was especially shocked by the responses that seemed to say "don't worry about it just add it without reguard to amount".

For those that are new to fertilizing, I suggest you start simple until you learn more. Stick with premixed aquarium fertilizers that contain Potassium, Iron and trace elements. Unless your using purified water these are the items you are most likely to be deficient in, at least at the beginning.

Now to figure out what if anything else you may need. Look at your plants, are they growing well? If so stop here, if not continue on. I recently read a very good way of determining this, take a picture of your tank today and another a week or two from now and compare the difference.

Start with one nutrient at a time and research it on the various websites or from books. Try to learn what most sources agree upon as an ideal level, as well as what is considered too high or low. Also try to learn what the effects of too much or too little of a nutrient are.

I suggest measuring your tank conditions if possible with a test kit before and after a water change. This gives you a starting and ending value to determine a rate of change if any.

I'll use the example of Nitrate, since it was mentioned in the other posts and most of hobbiests eventually buy a test kit for it. Lets say that we did the research and determined that 10ppm was ideal with 20ppm getting a little too high and 5 ppm getting a little too low.

Now first example lets say that we measured 20ppm right before a regular consistant 50% water change and 10ppm right after the water change. We now know that the Nitrate level is increasing from 10 to 20ppm between water changes and that the water we are adding isn't adding any additional nitrate to the aquarium. This also tells us there is no need to add nitrate to the aquarium because it is already there in an adequate amount.

In the second example suppose we measured 0 ppm before the water change and 5 ppm after the water change. This tells us that the nitrate level is decreasing between water changes and that the water we are adding contains a small amount of nitrate. This also tells us that we need to increase the nitrate level. How much do we add?

Well if we purchase a good brand name aquarium fertilizer the directions will tell us. Something like SeaChem's Flourish Nitrogen's directions state to add 2.5ml per 40 gallons to increase Nitrate 1ppm. If we didn't purchase something with good directions or went the DIY route, all is not lost, we can can figure out how much to add using our test kit. As mentioned in another post you can add a small measured amount to a gallon jug of water and measure it with the test kit to see how much it increased. We may have to dilute it with more water or add more nitrate to the water if it is not within the range of our test kit.

A word of caution, not all fertilizers are compatible with all test kits. Make sure that what you are measuring is the same thing you are adding. I had a Red Sea Iron test kit and tried this test using SeaChem's Flourish Iorn. No matter how much Flourish Iron I added to the water the Red Sea test kit always read zero. I later learned that the Red Sea test kit measured chleated iron and that SeaChem used something other than chleating agents to keep the iron usable to plants. To resolve this I purchased SeaChem's Multitest iron as suggested on the bottle of Flourish Iron and the problem was fixed.

Now for the example of what if there is no test kit available or the test kit is too expensive. This is where the last part of our research comes into play and that is knowing what the effects of too much or too little of something are. Keep in mind that "MOST" water sources that are considered safe to drink are relatively low in nutrients. Also keep in mind that fish waste produces some Nitrate, Phosphate and possibly Potassium.

Our research tells us that excess nutrients like Nitrate and Phosphate can cause problems so they should only be added with extreme caution if your not measuring because your taking a risk and falling back on much less reliable trial & error. On the other hand our research tells us that excess nutrients such as Potassium are relatively safe and do not cause any problems at reasonable levels, so you should be able to reason/calculate the amount to add to bring your tank to ideal levels. If some was already present in your aquarium and you added enough for your plants on top of it you should still be safe.

Please do not just accept the values I used as examples as the "right" amount for your aquarium but instead research and compare what those who have been getting it right for many years are doing. Many of them disagree upon the exact right amount, but if you choose a happy medium you probably won't go wrong.

[happychem]

While I do not disagree with the general sentiment of process detailed in your post (it was very well done), I suggest you update your research somewhat. Excess PO4 and NO3 are not the cause of algae, despite older references stating that they do. Test kits, while a good idea, are not strictly necessary. That said, I prefer kits to no kits. Dry ferts can be weighed accurately and the concentration provided by adding a given mass can be calculated easily.

On a side, and less important, note, there are only three ways that come to mind to keep iron in its 2+ state: chelates, strong acid, and anoxia. The last two are simply impractical. Hence, I'm very interested to find out where or how you learned that Seachem uses something other than chelates to stabilize their Fe(II).

[vidiots]

Here is a link to one of the references I found about Flourish Iron.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/flourish.html
Not being a chemist, I don't really understand how it works, but it has gotten a number of recomendations, from very experienced hobbiests, whos advice I have grown to trust.

I am a little biased when it comes to measuring, I'm a metrologist and measure things for a living. For me it's all about attention to the details.

As for my research being out of date that is quite probable, I tend to look for info from those who have been getting consistant great results for many years as opposed to those that only tried something in the short term. But because the older info has been around longer than I have, it is much more widely spread than the newer info.

Oh the bottle of Flourish Iron reads:
"Flourish Iron™ is a highly concentrated (10,000 mg/L) ferrous iron (Fe+2) gluconate supplement. It should be used in those cases where the iron requirements exceed that which can be delivered by Flourish™ at the recommended dose or signs of iron deficiency appear (such as short and slender stems or yellowing between veins.) Plants are able to much more easily derive a benefit from Flourish Iron™ than from EDTA-iron sources because all EDTA iron is in the ferric (Fe+3) state. Since plants require iron in the ferrous state, additional physiological energy must be expended in order to extract the ferric iron from EDTA-iron and then convert it to the ferrous form. Contains no phosphate or nitrate."

"DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) or as required to maintain about 0.10 mg/L iron. For smaller doses please note that each cap thread is about 1 mL. Use MultiTest: Iron™ test kit to monitor iron concentrations. Use as needed to combat signs of iron deficiency (usually seen in new growth) which include: chlorosis (yellowing) of tissue between veins and short and slender stems."

[happychem]

Thanks.

The gluconate is a chelate, just not in the traditional sense that one usually thinks of chelates. Basically it's just a big (a statement open to interpretations) organic molecule which binds the metal and keeps it in its 2+ state.

I'm keen on measuring stuff myself - being an analytical chemist turned chemical oceanographer (which is really just analytical chemistry on a ship ;) ). However, I'm also a little leery of the reliabilities of them. I've prepared the same reagents used in the kits for nutrient analyses in the lab, our references state that the reagents are useable for at most a couple of months. Granted we have a much greater need for precision and accuracy than the hobbyist, but it does leave me a little skeptical as to the reliability of the readings from my kits - especially since the kits probably sit in a warehouse for a couple months before making it to my home. I can standardize most of my kits, most folks either can't, or don't, but if one is going to rely on them, standardization is a must. But this is coming from an analytical chemist, sometimes I get a little lost in the details myself. :D

As for the research, I hear ya. Check out the Barr Report (www.barrreport.com/). Tom Barr has done, and continues to do, very good and rigorous research. It's well worth the $15 price of subscription.

[Aravind]

I have the following to be added to my 320 litres planted tank.

K2SO4
KNO3
KH2PO4
MGSO4
CACO3
CACL2
PMDD WHICH I NOW ADD ABOUT 1ML DAILY
RAW IRON WHICH I NOW ADD 0.5ML DAILY

wat is the quantity of these do i add daily to my densely planted tank daily(please specify in terms of teaspoon)?

Early reply appreciated....

[StLouisan]

OK here's a question. This thread says one could use products such as Fleet Enema or a specific brand of stump remover. Question is about the Fleet product. Can one use a generic that has the same active ingredient? I'm wondering if the slightly different inactive ingredients would affect the water chemistry. Has anyone had similar success with generic Fleet?

[beviking]

I am new to this site, and was reading through this thread. I found a number of posts made me laugh, while others disturbed me.

One of the most frequent questions I noticed was on how to know how much of or if add something. I was especially shocked by the responses that seemed to say "don't worry about it just add it without reguard to amount".

As Happy pointed out, most of the "too much PO4/NO3/Fe" has been gone over extensively. In a moderately planted tank with good CO2, there isn't too much worry regarding amount...if you're close to target for a given nutrient. Don't stick a sword plant, a few java ferns, some moss, and a few stems of Anacharis in a 55gal with 30W light over it and think you can dose away.



For those that are new to fertilizing, I suggest you start simple until you learn more. Stick with premixed aquarium fertilizers that contain Potassium, Iron and trace elements. Unless your using purified water these are the items you are most likely to be deficient in, at least at the beginning.

Good advice, but if one starts out heavily planted, they will quickly become nutrient deficient. Low light tanks are a different game compared to high light tanks.


i dunt get it!!!!!!!
can sumbody say it in a short kind of way?
Doubt it.
The part about test kits...they don't last forever.

The molecule mumbo jumbo...plants can't use iron unless it's in a specific form (the 2+ state/chelate) and the gluconate molecule (of which the iron is part of) is usable (at least part is) by the plant.




wat is the quantity of these do i add daily to my densely planted tank daily(please specify in terms of teaspoon)?
You can use chucks calculator or the fertilator on APC. Both found in the stickies. PMDD incorporates macro and micro-nutrients usually. Are you asking for the pmdd formula for your tank or individual nutrient calculations?

StLouisan, I always used generic enema with no problem.

jgulecas, yes, for now. You may find that you still have to dose it if you have lots of plants, CO2, high light so it is still worth testing in this case.

[Stunner09]

I have a 60 liter 2feet tank. Will my plants grow quick or slow if i go with the following plan?

Put one 36W T5 compact lighting(the double tube one.
Buy eco complete substrate.

Do i still need to add ferts because the eco-comlete apparently turn fish waste and waste food to plant nutrients.

I am planning to grow amazon swrds and all teh beginner plants. I woud Love to grow ricca so would it grow with my 2/wpg lighting?

Regards.

[grannylvsfish]

wow this thread confused the heck out of me!
I am new to plants, , and this stuff went right over my head.the last time I got plants they were awsome, but died quickly. I am up grading my lights, (GE Fresh/Saltwater Fluorescent (20 watt) ) but no co2 will be added. I need to know if there is a one dose pill or what ever to put in my tank to do all its suposed to do in making my plants grow well. I am doing low light plants, and I have a gravel bottom. I do not know about fleets, iron etc, I need to know something easy and basic. soooooo tell me what product to buy that will work in my tank, how often its to be used and how and this info will be wonderful :)
my fish are cichlids, ( angels, parrot, sevrum firemouths) other tank will be electric yellow and blues.

[Jag1980]

If you thought about making your own fertilizers at a cheaper cost, here is what you need to replace the Flourish products.

aquariumfertilizer.com is a place to buy dry fertilizers at a low cost.
Total cost for me was $42.00 shipped for everything I needed to replace all products of Flourish. Not sure how much it makes, but I know it's cheaper then buying bottles already made by Seachem.

I sent them a email asking about what I needed and this is what they sent me.

Flourish = our PMDD PMDD = 1 part each of KNO3, KSO4, MgSO4, and CSM+B
Flourish Iron = our Iron Chelate
Flourish Potassium = our Potassium Sulfate (KSO4)
Flourish Nitrate = our Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Flourish Phosphorus = our Mono Potassium Phosphate (MKP)
Flourish Tabs = They are not yet on our website, but we our now selling our own AquariumFertilizer.com substrate fertilizer Tabs.
Flourish Trace = our Plantex CSM+B
--Plantex CSM Guaranteed Analysis:
--1.50%Total Magnesium (Mg)
--0.10% Copper (cu)(chelated)
--7.00% Iron (Fe)(chelated)
--2.00% Manganese (Mn)(chelated)
--0.06% Molybdenum (Mo)
--0.40% Zinc (Zn)(chelated)
--~1.18% Boron added to mix
--All chelated nutrients are
--chelated using EDTA.
--EDTA content (minimum) 55%

Cheapest I found Flourish fertilizer products are $5.00 per bottle plus shipping cost of $10.00
Local pet stores sell them at $10.00 to $14.00 per bottle plus tax.

[Mindcrime121]

Well, having read the whole thread and understood a lot less of it, I'm sticking to what I'm doing now. I added seachem flourite to the substrate and am dosing Flourish in my 20gal with 2.25 wpg over it, mostly because 1: it seems a LOT easier than preparing and figuring out dosages for DIY ferts, 2: My tank is only 20gal which means the Flourish bottles will last long enough to make the cost worth it, as opposed to larger tanks where the bottles will need replaced a lot more often. Regarding dosing amounts, I'm dosing 1/3 of the recommended dose on the bottle which is listed for a 60gal tank, not quite as often as recommended, and letting the fish do the rest. Since I started doing this my plants have started sprouting new leaves again, greened up some, and seem quite happy. If and when this stops working so well I'll check my nitrate level and if low I'll increase frequency of dosing on the flourish, and if THAT doesn't work, I'll start adding Flourish trace. I've never even SEEN test kits for most of these, and every time I see KNO3, KH2PO4, or some other chemical compound abreviation it just makes my eyes hurt! LOL! If the combo of Flourish and Flourish trace fails to kick things back in to gear, THEN I may consider looking in to dry ferts one at a time to see if the addition of one or another makes a difference. Any of the experts see anything wrong with this plan for a planted tank newb like myself? :)

[Riiz]

Mindcrime are you using the whole seachem line? List each product your using and how much of each.

[Mindcrime121]

At this point, having just begun with ANY of this stuff, I just added Seachem Flourite substrate to the existing gravel bed and mixed it in a bit, then replanted the tank and started dosing Flourish only, 1/3 cap full about every 4 or 5 days. Did a water change about 3 days ago using bottled water to reduce hardness and PH after discovering that they are coming out of the tap higher than my test kit can read them. Currently my nitrate is around 15-20 ppm, GH is about 75, KH is around 100, and PH is about 7.2. Since I introduced the floutire and started using Flourish several plants that had been pretty much in "stasis" have come out of it and started popping up new leaves. One small anubias rysome has started to spit out 5 new leaves after having sat without a single new one poking up for over a month or so.

sidenote: Unless you're using pressurized CO2 on a high light tank, I don't believe the plants can/will consume so much that anyone should need to use ALL the Flourish products, especially not on a regular basis. This whole thread seems geared for the experts with high end, high tech, large tanks... a catagory I certainly don't fall into on any of these counts, lol!

[plantbrain]

I've suggested many methods and dosings over a long time to folks.
Most new folks really end up more confused at the end of large threads.
So what is it that they, like most of us when we where "new", want?
Something simple, easy, no chemistry lessons or test kits involved.
What else do they want? A nice looking planted tank. Most have some idea about keeping fish tanks.
You do this and avoid most of the dosing stuff by doing a non CO2 planted aquarium. There's soem trade offs there and caveats. But that's another thread.

1. They can do things like water changes pretty easy, no hard concepts there.
2. They can use things like teaspoons/mls volume measures
3. They can buy the cheap ferts rather than buy the vendor brands at 1000X more $
4. They can "garden" some(prune, preen leaves, trim etc).

Most can do this pretty easily. No background in chemistry is needed. No testing NO3/PO4/Fe, calibrating test kits, and spending lots of $ on name brand stuff.
Folks did not get into this hobby to do this. I do not care what anyone wants to say about advice, not one person I've met in well over 30 years has ever gotten in to this hobby to test water and learn chemistry. They get into it because they like the look of plants, like them when they see them grow, want a more natural look than plastic plants etc, mop up nutrients etc.

Taking a big step back and looking at the social issues why and what folks want, what their goals are is critical. From there, now you can see what is likely the best method to advise to a new person vs someone who might be obsessed about every detail vs someone who is less likely to care for things/lacks the time etc.

Dosing is actually a relative small part of the planted tank but still important, light and CO2 are the big issues.

For management, less light, moderate light is best. Generally 2 w/gal, not more. Less light= less CO2 demand. This makes adding CO2 much easier and less light also = slower, easier to manage growth rates.

Slower growth(Slower algae growth as well)= less nutrient dosing require, more wiggle room. Poor CO2 causes most of the issues folks tend to have.
So less light helps that crowd as well as those who mess up their dosing or are just not that attentive.

Dosing itself is really easy. Most new folks tend to be scared about it and particularly with dry fertilizers. They are taking a leaf of faith here. Just keep that in mind when helping them.

They are not sure what KNO3 is, or KH2PO4 and all this weird Chem lingo looking stuff. That's okay, they generally are okay with things like baking soda, they rarely call it "sodium bicarbonate" NaHCO3 :evil_lol:
They can add 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda no problem to a cookie recipe without getting too unsure. They should be able to do the same saltpeter or KNO3 by adding 1/4 teaspoon in the same manner.

If they make a mistake, they can do a large water change and re set the tank. That's simple.

So the dosing part only involves perhaps 3-4 things at most, folks might add every 2-3 days or they can do it daily if their habits are best suited, much like feeding the fish daily, they can feed the plant daily.

After doing this for a week or two, it becomes very simple and "old hat".
I add 2 teaspoons of KNO3, 1 teaspoon of KH2PO4, 50 mls of Tropica master grow every 2-3 days. I add 1 table spoon of GH booster after each water change(60% weekly etc).

I do not need to do anything else other than watch CO2, clean filters, prune etc.

Here's yet another view of EI dosing from another perspective which you might understand a bit better:
http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm

Many of these folks are relatively new to all this as well.
But they have come a long way in a very short time frame.

For those not wanting to do much dosing, few water changes, then a non CO2 planted tank method/s are much better suited to your goals.
This does not mean you will grow a nice looking ADA style scape by simply not adding CO2 and no nutrients, far from it. It still takes patience, a lot more than many think, but the end result might be something you are happy with. As the light is also low, no CO2, the plant growth is slow.

This means the plants demand for nutrients is also slow.
So fish waste alone often, but not always, can meet the nutrient demands.

So for the CO2 enriched tanks, you will generally need to add ferts regularly(2-3x a week, to daily), maybe 1-3x a month for the non CO2 methods and then only a small amount if at all.
There are trade offs for both methods, but trying both of them is the best way to learn about each.




Regards,
Tom Barr

[Mindcrime121]

Awesome post Tom. That simplified a LOT of this thread right there. Being that 'm running a non CO2 20 gallon tank, my biggest thing is watching the nitrates and making sure they stay low enough to avoid an algae bloom and high enough to feed the plants as I understand things so far. My PH is a simple matter of knowing what plants I have and looking up the conditions they thrive best in and not having plants that require high PH along with those requiring low PH in the same tank. From what I've seen most have a fairly wide range to play in though. Now that I'm using filtered water I no longer have the issue of adding unknown amounts of trace elements and jacking up my phosphorus levels with the liquid rock that comes out of my tap here, again which to my understanding would simply cause an algae bloom in my tank. As long as things remain good and the plants show visible growth and no issues, I'm simply going to dose a little Flourish once or twice a week to feel like I'm doing something, lol! If I get too much in there that way, my water changes will resolve it anyhow. Sound about right? Or am I completely missing something here?

[Juicybear]

I was wondering if going with the Total Substrate pellets on this site http://www.aquariumplants.com/AquariumPlants_com_s_own_SUBSTRATE_VITALIZATION_p/fert.htm is a good deal....

[Juicybear]

or if anyone knows of a good All-in-one fertalizer

[Mindcrime121]

I've read a few posts from people who used their stuff and liked it. Thought about getting their substrate and pellets myself a while back but decided to avoid ordering online and just bought a bag of Seachem Flourite at the LFS and a bottle of flourish. If you get it you should make a post to detail how things go from the time you set up and update it so we can have a running testimony, good or bad. :)

[barbarossa4122]

40-60 Gallons
1/2 tsp KNO3 3x a week
1/8 tsp KH2PO4 3x a week
1/8 tsp K2SO4 3x a week
1/8 tsp (10 ml) traces 3x a week

Hi,

Can you please tell me if these instructions are for dosing the powder directly into the tank. Thank you.

[barbarossa4122]

If you thought about making your own fertilizers at a cheaper cost, here is what you need to replace the Flourish products.

aquariumfertilizer.com is a place to buy dry fertilizers at a low cost.
Total cost for me was $42.00 shipped for everything I needed to replace all products of Flourish. Not sure how much it makes, but I know it's cheaper then buying bottles already made by Seachem.

I sent them a email asking about what I needed and this is what they sent me.

Flourish = our PMDD PMDD = 1 part each of KNO3, KSO4, MgSO4, and CSM+B
Flourish Iron = our Iron Chelate
Flourish Potassium = our Potassium Sulfate (KSO4)
Flourish Nitrate = our Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Flourish Phosphorus = our Mono Potassium Phosphate (MKP)
Flourish Tabs = They are not yet on our website, but we our now selling our own AquariumFertilizer.com substrate fertilizer Tabs.
Flourish Trace = our Plantex CSM+B
--Plantex CSM Guaranteed Analysis:
--1.50%Total Magnesium (Mg)
--0.10% Copper (cu)(chelated)
--7.00% Iron (Fe)(chelated)
--2.00% Manganese (Mn)(chelated)
--0.06% Molybdenum (Mo)
--0.40% Zinc (Zn)(chelated)
--~1.18% Boron added to mix
--All chelated nutrients are
--chelated using EDTA.
--EDTA content (minimum) 55%

Cheapest I found Flourish fertilizer products are $5.00 per bottle plus shipping cost of $10.00
Local pet stores sell them at $10.00 to $14.00 per bottle plus tax.


Buying the Seachem Flourish line is $ 64.00 and will last around 3 to 4 months by my calculations.

[plantbrain]

Awesome post Tom. That simplified a LOT of this thread right there. Being that 'm running a non CO2 20 gallon tank, my biggest thing is watching the nitrates and making sure they stay low enough to avoid an algae bloom and high enough to feed the plants as I understand things so far. My PH is a simple matter of knowing what plants I have and looking up the conditions they thrive best in and not having plants that require high PH along with those requiring low PH in the same tank. From what I've seen most have a fairly wide range to play in though. Now that I'm using filtered water I no longer have the issue of adding unknown amounts of trace elements and jacking up my phosphorus levels with the liquid rock that comes out of my tap here, again which to my understanding would simply cause an algae bloom in my tank. As long as things remain good and the plants show visible growth and no issues, I'm simply going to dose a little Flourish once or twice a week to feel like I'm doing something, lol! If I get too much in there that way, my water changes will resolve it anyhow. Sound about right? Or am I completely missing something here?

This tank runs NO3 limited pretty fast, I need to dose about 20ppm a week in addition to feeding it heavily.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/3923d17d.jpg

Non cO2, but the plants have access to the air above.
If you run the non CO2 method correctly, it should have higher PO4 and Fe etc, and low/limiting NO3.
Most soil based tanks end up there after a few months, year or so.
Non CO2 is a much more modified dosing (reduced) goal for most.

I feed such tanks very well and then top off with ferts as needed, mostly by eyeballing the plant growth/health etc.
Every once in a awhile, I'll measure the NO3. Rare I get over 2ppm even if I dose 10ppm 2-3x a week. Plants suck it up.
Other CO2 enriched tanks I dose more, and keep the NO3 at 20+ppm.
Fat cardinals, fat breed like roaches RCS etc.