Teracotta poison?

[birket]

Hi
I have been having a major problem with my Clown Loaches and Plec. 4 loaches have died, the Plec, and now my last Clown looks like its not going to make it.
I have been racking my brains trying to work out what has changed. Water tests for Ammonia, Ph and Nitrate/nitrate prove not to be the issue - they are normal. The fish that have died show now external symptoms.
The only thing I can think of is that about 2 months ago, I broke a small teracotta plant pot and thought that it would make a nice 'home' for the Plec to live under. It certainly did, and resided there most of the time. My clown loaches used the other half as a home. The tiger barbs and neon tetras in the tank did not use it at all.
I am wondering if over the two months or so that they have been living under the pot some kind of chemical has leached out of the clay and poisoned the fish. Like I said, there are no external signs, but before they have died, they have spend the time just lying and 'panting' at the bottom of the tank.
Any ideas?

[Cichlid Woman]

Was it painted or ceramic-fired terra cotta, or just plain clay?

-- Pat

[birket]

I think it was just plain fired - no paint, and it wasn't shiny which would suggest a glaze.

[wetmanNY]

If it had been used, it could have absorbed some insecticides or fertilizer salts...

but I think you might treat for external parasites, Costia and Trichodina etc., and at the same time eliminate any gill flukes. Look over the medications for ectoparasites at your LFS.

[RTR]

Plain terracotta pots should not be a problem in a tank, they've been used for such for years. But they should be new pots, not used. Used pots could have residual incesticides or such that could be a problem.

[wetmanNY]

Cancel my post! I prefer RTR's incesticides.

Great minds think... well, in parallel relays...

[birket]

I take your points, but the pot was only small - about 5 inches tall. Its only really had soil in it before (with a plant - obvioisly!), and I highly douby that we had used insecticide or anything like that. If we had used insecticide, surely the amount that could have leeched out into a 120 litre tank would be sufficient to kill 5 loaches and a Plec? But maybe it would? I don't know.
One of you mentioned parasites - I can't see anything though. Wouldn't you be able to see something? I even examined the bodies of a couple of the dead ones and didn't see anything.

The only thing I have noticed in my last remaining clown loach (which may by now be dead) is some red colouration near its tail - like blood inside that I haven't notoced before. Could it be internal bleeding or something? And if so, what would cause this?

Fish are a nightmare!

[TJcanada]

I doubt it was the clay pot - are you certian that no insecticides were used on the plant that lived in it?
Costia and Trich have been mentioned as possiblities - and Flukes - you will not see these with your "naked eye" you'll need a microscope. All three of these nasties love the gills and that's usualy where they are most numerous. You said you examined a dead fish - what did the gills look like? How long after it was dead did you do the exam?
Costia will sometimes will show as a very thin whitish/grey mucus coating over the body - very hard to notice and at that point has spread very far, likely hood of treatment being successful is minimal. It also kills very fast given the oppertunity to multiply(proper conditions which goes to water quality and stress of fish infected) - as can Trich.
With Costia and Trich salt treatments usually work - with Flukes you'll need something such as and MG(malachite green)/Formalin combo. Indentifying what you have in order to treat accordingly. Costia and Trich can be seen at 100xmagnification on a "cheap" microscope - Flukes can be seen at 40x. If you can get a hold of a scope by all means do so - in some ways it can be your best friend as far as your fish go. If not then someone else should be able to recommend a course of treatment to follow.
Hope that helps a little........


some red colouration near its tail - like blood inside - possibly the beginnings of an ulcer - could indicate bacterial activity.

[birket]

Geez! How complicated is this? I stupidly assumed that you would be able to see parasites! Why would this affect only my plec and loaches? My tiger barbs and tetras seem fine. I did really enjoy my loaches, but I daren't replace them in case they get the same thing.

"possibly the beginnings of an ulcer - could indicate bacterial activity."

How should I deal with this?

[Darkangel]

No one has asked what size tank this is or how often you do water changes. Visible blood on the tail fin, which looks like thin streaks could be indicitive of ammonia poisoning. You say you did water tests and they prove not to be the issue. Are you sure the test kits work? Are they old test kits? What is the filtering like? It is strange that all the fish you are having trouble with are bottom dwellers. Also the clown loaches are the most delicate in that tank IMO. How big were the loaches? Small ones tend to be a little weak. Did you have all the loaches in the tank at once or have they been dying and being replaced? Just some ideas.

[birket]

The tank is 120 lires (not sure about the gallons equiv). The loaches are about 3 inches long (quite young). They have been added in batches of 2 or 3 at a time, but this has all happened in the last couple of weeks and I have had the fish for 3 or 4 months.

I have an external bio-flter (eheim) with a spray bar and an internal mach-filter that came with the Jewel tank. I will try the water tests again. I change the water (25-30%) once every week or 2.

Is that a typical indication of ammonia poisoning then? My last loach is panting and seems to loose balance evry now and again. I can only describe the behaviour as a bit 'stiff' if you catch my drift.

When I do my water changes, I use tap water and add Stress-coat. Is there any other thing I should be adding/doing when I add this new water. I'm in oxford (UK) and I know that the water isn't fantastic. The Ph has always been at about 8-8.4 but I have been told by my local shop that this should be fine.

[TJcanada]

EDIT:*you beat me to it;)*

hmmm Dark may be on to something...? *rubbing posterior from the cyber kick about not asking tanks specs :p *
Ok tell us more birket - how do you keep your tank, size, water changes/gravel vac, filteration, any water additives, plants, no plants, substrate material, feeding schedual, new fish additions, and post your test perameters(numbers!), when did the fish start dying off, who first?????....questions and more questions...til someone can help point you in the right direction...guessing/hypothizing is all anyone can do;) - and fish keeping doesn't have to be complicated....but knowledge is power :) figuratively speaking.

[birket]

OK y'all - I shall do my tests again and give you the full low-down tomorrow.

Thanks again.

[TJcanada]

Is that a typical indication of ammonia poisoning then? My last loach is panting and seems to loose balance evry now and again. I can only describe the behaviour as a bit 'stiff' if you catch my drift.-birket
Gills can swell with ammonia toxicity and they do "pant" - but nitrIte will do the same if not more damage. One of the first signs of NitrIte poisoning is "red streaked" fins and/or skin(veining)- as it's been my experience, not seen that symptom with ammonia personally. BUT parasites that infest the gills will also cause the fish to strain for O2 uptake and sometimes cause excess mucus production.
Did you quatentine the new arrivals before adding them to the tank?
About bottom dwellers: being so close to the substrate, IMO, if it's not kept in very good condition(clean of dirt/decaying matter), they are the first to show signs of stress and symptoms of falling water quality.
One thing to consider is that water quality and parasites go hand in hand - declining waterQ stresses fish which inturn can cause parasites and/or bacteria to take advantage of thier "hosts". The overall health of an individual fish determines the possiblity/amount of time in which these problems start to show.

Just my thoughts for the moment..........

[wetmanNY]

birket,

at your very high pH (8.0-8.4) just about all your ammonia is in its toxic un-ionized form, NH3. Even the merest trace in an ammonia test will be toxic. When posters say their tests for ammonia are" normal" I always wonder what that means-- and I'm wondering whether Oxford's water is chloraminated. That would mean that when you de-chlorinate at water changes, freed ammonia is stressing your fishes. Water statistics are available on-line.

I would strongly suggest that you use AmQuel to detoxify the freed NH3. It binds the NH3, but leaves it available for your nitrifying bacteria. Avoid water conditioners with ingredients that supplement mucus. The mucus layer on a healthy gill is one micron thick!

You seem so confident about your used flowerpot that I assume it's one you bought new and that you have potted up your plant in it without fertilizers or insecticides. I think it would be hard to persuade you to replace it with a new one. (brightening up) Perhaps you have already done so.

Toxins in the water would be adsorbed by fresh activated charcoal in your filtration. Highly recommended. After four days or so, carbon is pretty much spent. If you're medicating for microscopic external parasites, though, you'll have to leave out the carbon til you're finished. This you already know...

[birket]

I'm pretty sure the water is chlorinated - i can sometimes smell it feintly. Where would I get AmQuel in the UK? I just did a quick search and had no joy.

I noticed an 'ammonia alarm' which might be a useful thing.

[Darkangel]

Personally I am leaning more and more towards ammonia here. 120 litres is only about 30 gallons. That is a fairly small tank for 5-3 inch clown loaches an unknown size pleco, a school of neons and a school of tiger barbs. You never say how big the pleco was or how many the other fish were. Toxins like insecticides would only need to be in the vicinity of parts per million. A very very small amount would kill your fish. What I think wetmanNY was asking you was if you have chloramine in your water which is different then chlorine. wetmanNY, as I do not use test kits I do not know but you may, will ammonia show up on a standard test kit in its toxic un-ionized form. This statement of "I change the water (25-30%) once every week or 2." by birket also leads me to believe it is ammonia. Perhaps you have skipped a change or two? Easy to do at this time of year for any of us. Again all this is just my thoughts, just my 2 cents worth.

[wetmanNY]

Chloramine is a molecule of chlorine and ammonia that is more stable in the water mains than simple chlorine. That "chlorine" smell in your tapwater doesn't tell you which your utility is using. Go to their website and find out!

Twice the dose of your usual dechlorinator (sodium thiosulfate) breaks the chlorine-ammonia bond of chloramine, freeing that NH3. You want to bind it immediately, because it's toxic. Ammonia-adsorbing zeolite in the filter will be good, or zeolite products with names like "Ammo-Lock"

There have been many thousands of aquarium fish deaths in the US as we've switched to chloramines in the last decade...

[wetmanNY]

Yes, DarkAngel, a test kit will test for non-ionized NH3 and ionized NH4.

[RTR]

If I can be forgiven for incesticides (which do sound intriguing for a mental typo), I guess Wetman can be forgiven for exaggerating the percentage of ammonia at the stated pH - it only gets to >20% at 86F and pH 8.5

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

But if you take in the whole article, ammonia is just not a good thing at hobby-kit-detectable levels.

[Serrateeth_2002]

Is terracotta made of clay?They couldn't have leech clay particles like when clay is mixed with water,it softens and clouds the water.More likely i am wrong:D

[wetmanNY]

Oop! embarassing. I'm a long way from home at pH 8.5... thank you for the krib link, RTR!
How'd this post get in this thread?

[birket]

Well, as predicted, when I got home from work last night, my last Clown Loach had died! Now I am left with 5 tiger barbs ( about 1 inch long) and 6 green neon tetras (about 1/2 inch long). I did another 20-25% water change last night, and added Stress Coat to the new water. This morning, I tested the levels, and they are as follows:

Ammonia 0 PPM
Nitrite 0 PPM
Ph about 7.8
Nitrate 40 PPM

My test kits are all well in date.

My Plec (a queen something or other - it was black with very fine squiggly white lines all over it) was about 4.5 inches long).

Just so that you know, I took the terracotta pot out as soon as I thought it might be the culprit.

[Twilight]

Some Terra cotta pots are not real on the inside though they may look or be so on the outside. Some are just coated. I crack or break my pots and sand the edges smooth. By doing so I can tell whats inside them. I have ran into some that were different on the inside then the out.

[birket]

I did notice that the pot was grey in colour between the inner and outer faces.
Might this suggest anything?

[RTR]

LOL @ Wetman... I'm near-home at that level w/moderately hard moderately alkaline water, plus a few tanks pushed into brackish ranges with aragonite substrates.