Trouble with White Clouds

[Jhereg10]

I set up a quarantine tank and purchased a dozen White Cloud Mountain Minnows. These were the last stock remaining, and may have been in the LFS tank for some time.

After getting them into the tank (using drip equalization of water over several hours into the bag, then releasing), over the next several days I was horrified by the results.

First day, all seemed fine. Schooling fine, fin flaring at each other (dominance? mating game?), etc.

Then, I'd come home from work and find one dead with no obvious damage. The remainder would be fine. pH was 7.5, temp was 78F, all testable parameters were fine.

Go to bed, and next morning, another two dead.

And so on. All the remaining survivors would look healthy, active, normal. Then an unexplained death.

Finally, I was so freaked out that there was some contaminant in my quarantine tank, that I transferred the remaining 6 to my 75G. And there they were fine for several days.

Then one began showing signs of fin clamping, listless behavior, aimlessness. It would stop swimming and its tail would sag. It was not feeding properly.

I admit, I panicked. I dosed with a 1/2 recommended dose of aquarium salt and then a few hours later with a 1/2 dose of Tank Buddies Fungus treatment (all I could get my hands on at that hour).

Next morning, everyone was fine, and its condition has noticeably improved (problem with multiple treatment is...which one worked, or did neither have an impact and it just improved on its own?)

Now, that same one has a look of "permanent scream". It's lower jaw is permanently agape, and looks plain wrong. It doesn't look fungal (no fluffy texture?) but is reddened. The fish still eats voraciously (and can apparently swallow fine). Could it have damaged itself? Or is this related to the earlier event? Side note, maybe no relation, we did have a momentary ant problem in the house, and they were getting on the aquarium. Those tiny black ones, could one have gotten into the water and in the process of being eaten bitten the fish? I'm grasping here.

Any thoughts on the overall White Cloud mortalities? OTHER LFS says that since I eliminated all obvious water problems, and most of the fish would look fine, it was probably an internal infection of some kind (which I have probably now stupidly introduced ot my 75G). Stress of move brought it out?

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

[riffless]

I started with six 1 1/2 years ago, and have only lost one (they seem to be a very hearty fish, so your losses are kind of strange) the only thing I would look into is the ph, because I keep mine at 7.0 ph and they seem to be fine... so I'd look into that

[Jhereg10]

Yeah, that's the main reason I purchased them. I mean, they look good, I could support a fairly large school, and they're supposed to be quite hardy as you said.

Here's some info I found on them:

Temp: 60-75°F (16-24°C)
pH and dH Not critical
Temperament: Very peaceful, must be protected from larger agressive fish

The only place I'm out of range is that my temperature is a bit high. My 75G runs around 80F with no heater used. Just good insulation on the bottom and heat from the lights. Room temp is that room averages 75F. I dunno how I'll get the temp down (I'd like to, I've started leaving the top open hoping evaporation will help, but it seems to "want" to stay at 80F).

Thanks for the note.

[yashinfan]

Okay, I doubt it is pH but this is what to do:
1) Always ask your LFS for the pH in their tanks and bring a sample of your water to match with their pH testers, that way you have an accurate reading of the difference.
2) Integrate slowly (my process lasts an hour) and they will be fine.

So pH killing fish over many days is VERY unlikely. My first batch, when I wasn't at all knowledgeable about fish integration, died in 30 mins because of a pH difference of 1.0 to 1.5 So I'd strike out pH as a possible problem on your list. I also doubt ants would do anything to fish besides become lunch. I have fish outside and they'll munch and insect they can get their hands onto. If your fish has its mouth open all the time then I would think maybe it is having some breathing problems but if your other fish do not experience this same affect than maybe it is some sort of disease and that fish'll be the next victim.

[yashinfan]

Get your temperature down!!! The ammonia levels are higher when the temperature is up and that may be causing the deaths of your fish. Get the temp into the safe range, think 24 degrees (celcius)! 24 is warm enough that it causes fish to spawn so 80F would be in the danger zone for fish. Get a fan? Air conditioning? Cold water? SOMETHING!

[Jhereg10]

The LFS says "We keep the pH where the tapwater puts it, that way we don't have to adjust it after water changes, and pH stability is much more important than any particular pH value that fish prefer." He discouraged me from trying to "tune" pH in my tank to particular fish requirements.

We're on the same water system as the LFS, so it's about the same (7.5 plus or minus 0.1).

I'm religious about checking my ammonia. I check with a "rough range" test every few days, and if I get any reading at all I follow up with a "fine range" test. I'm measuring consistently < 0.1 ppm. NH by itself shouldn't be the issue. Nitrites are also practically zero. Nitrates running around 5 ppm or less. No chlorine (and our water system doesn't use chloramine). GH=7, KH=3.

As far as the temp being too high in and of itself, I'm concerned about that, and you've confirmed it.

I'll have to do something to ventilate the tank. If I lower the AC, the wife and I will freeze (we're acclimated to the warmer clime down here in Houston, for us 72 is freaking cold <grin>). Adding cold water isn't a fix either. My tank will consistently maintain 80F, cold water might temporarily reduce it, but without something continuously cooling it, I doubt I'll get anywhere. I'm in the process of building a suspended hood (hang from ceiling) for a 2x55W CF setup I ordered from AHSupply. That should move the hood off the glass and reduce heat input? (Though the wattage will be quite an increase. Right now I'm running the stock 40W plus and extra smaller hood at 18W.)


Thanks for the input!

[punch]

White cloads are a cold water fish, I think the temp is just to high for them. I don't even keep my tropical at 80.

[yashinfan]

I think if you're going to have that much trouble cooling your tank down than you should trade in your fish for a different species which could stand your higher temperatures. I don't know how you'd go about finding out if you're on the same water system as the fish store, though, because I know in my area people on the same street have different pH levels.

[Jhereg10]

I read that while White Clouds are typically cold-water, they can live comfortably in a broad temperature range:

Tanichthys albonubes

Temperature Requirements: 40-85F, best breeding temperature 70F.

-Handbook of Tropical Aquarium Fish, Axelrod/Schulz, pg 334.

So I figured I was well within the safe range for them.

As regards my water system, we're both in the same MUD (Municipal Water District, there are dozens of these mini-systems throughout the Houston area) and the construction around here is all relatively new (<10 years old). I suppose if you had an older system, there would be more variation due to repairs using different materials, leakage, etc?

I talked to the Water Dept. here and the LFS numbers, their numbers, and my numbers on pH are all coming out within 0.2 of 7.5, so I'm pretty comfortable with pH consistency between my LFS and me..though I still am careful about acclimation.

[Jhereg10]

I still agree, though..80F is just too freaking high. I would prefer to run closer to 75 or at most 77F (24-25C).

Hopefully, raised lighting and some ventilation will buy me the few degrees I need.

I suppose I could remove the insulation from the bottom of the tank. The stand top isn't solid, it's a frame. I could remove the insulation and lose some heat that way...but I've got about 3" of gravel and no UGF, so I doubt that will be enough heat loss to get me very far. Worth it?

[yashinfan]

Probably not. Do you have plants in your tank? Because if you don't then you don't even need a light on your tank, I don't have one and my fish are fine :)

[Jhereg10]

Pretty heavily planted. All thriving thank goodness.

[yashinfan]

Hmm, is there a cooler room in your house, maybe? A basement? Other than that I don't know what to suggest except hoping your fish learn to adapt fast or else.. :(

[Jhereg10]

Well, basements aren't real big when you're scant feet above sea level (grin). Nope, no basements. And the downstairs is the coolest part of the house.

We're going to try to redistribute the AC load from upstairs to downstairs, lower the thermostat on the house and pinch down on the upstairs vents.

That, with getting the lights further from the glass and keeping more ventilation might get me a few degrees, no?

[TKOS]

How are the rest of your fish doing in the 75 gallon? If they are okay then it is most likely that you ended up with a really sick batch of white clouds that just didn't survive the trip. Increased heat is generally the way to cure many diseases as it speeds up the life cycle of parasites and bacteria. But if the fish were already pretty weak then it might have been just too much.

My White clouds have thrived at 76F, though I finally have the tank cooled down to 72F.

Hopefully the next batch of fish you get is a little hardier. Good luck.

Oh and I don't think it is that Ammonia levels are higher at higher temps but that Ammonia is more toxic at higher temps. So if you test and there is no ammonia then it isn't a problem. It is that higher temps make the water off gas the oxygen quicker, so airation is needed.

[Jhereg10]

How did you get your tank cooled down, btw?

I have a Rosy Barb that is multi-years old, he's jolly as can be. Two Plecos that are active nocturnally and at times feeding during daylight hours. I have a Ramshorn and a Mystery Snail, both are actively feeding, not stuck into their shells or anything.

I remember what you mentioned on Ammonia. It's not that ammonia is "more toxic" at higher temps, but there is more of it (sort of).

My understanding from what I read is that many (most?) ammonia tests register both ammonia (NH3) and ammonium ions (NH4). NH4 is relatively non-toxic, NH3 is relatively toxic.

The proportion of NH3 to NH4 is in equilibrium dependent on temperature and pH. The proportion of NH3 increases with temperature and pH.

So an "ammonia" reading that would be fine at lower temps or pH becomes toxic at higher temps or pH (because a higher proportion of that reading is NH3 and not NH4).

Right?

Thx!

[TKOS]

Well for me it wasn't too hard as I live in a basement apartment in Canada, so I just turned the heat down in my apartment. I can always wear a sweater if I need to so I figure I should make it comfy for my fish if it is easy.

Well you got me all stumped on the ammonia issue as I probably should pay a little closer attention when I read those other posts. But eh fact remains that you tested the water and didn't get an ammonia reading so that should be the problem or else other fish would be showing the sign of it already.

I am still thinking it must be a bad batch of fish, though if it was internal parasites you should worry about the other fish in the tank, unless they were eating them.

Maybe you should try getting some more rosy barbs so that you can have a nice exciting school of them. You know that barbs can survive in the tank.

[Jhereg10]

LOL, yeah, I guess I've proven that. I've had that fish through 2 moves and this is his second tank.

One of the LFS's said that a "bad batch" was a possibility. That since they were the last remaining of their batch, they had been in the other store a while and might have been stressed for some time, just waiting for a small nudge to push them over the edge. The transfer to a new tank might just have done it.

I'm hoping it's that and NOT internal parasites.

I hope I'm a little smarter now, I bought a slightly larger quarantine tank, have it all set up and cycling, preparing perhaps for another round of purchases in a month.

Here's a dumb question. If you aren't supposed to add more than 2-3 fish to a tank at a time (to give it time to absorb the load) but you should buy schooling fish in 6-8+ (so they feel at ease), which of these guidelines should you follow? Or do small, schooling fish represent such a small load that 12 of them is equivalent to 2-3 "normal" sized fish.

Thx!

[TKOS]

I would guess that adding a small school of rosy barbs or other small fish to your 75 gallon tank won't be too hard on the bio load as you only really have the plecos adding to it right now (though I hear they are really messy fish). Just keep that test kit handy and test a lot. Of course you can also make sure to reduce feeding during the early stages to make sure excess food isn't going to sink to the bottom and end up rotting and producing an ammonia spike.