View Full Version : urgent: new additions to tank keep dying
my tank contains
a ghost cat fish
6 neon tetras
a java fern
gravel on the base
lately after a bacteria boom in my tank which killed another ghost cat fish, 2 neon tetras and 2 bronze corys, i've been unable to add any fishes to my tank with out them dying.
to solve the bacteria boom problem, i chnage about 90% of the water, added dechlorinated water and nutrafin's bacteria supplement cycle.
my fishes stopped dying. but a new problem surfaced. my ghost catfish is a community creature that likes its own species company, so i bought another ghost catfish for it. but everything i added to this tank had died so far. before they die, when i observe them in my tank, their eyes seem to have small white flaps on them. then they just die maybe half an hour later.
the weirdest thing is how come my old fishes have not a single problem, no deaths, no signs of anything but my new fishes just keep dying.
i cannot find the problem here. when the new fishes come in, i float them in the tank to adjust the temperature for maybe 2hrs and add some tank water to their bags to adjust them.
could someone please help me? and at least tell me where i've gone wrong? i've done 30-50% water changes everyday with dechlorinated water but nothing seems to help and the new additions just keep dying.
Sharyl C
06-23-2003, 10:40 PM
i would bet you are still having water quality issues like high ammonia or nitrites. the old fish have most likely "adjusted" to the poor water quality in your tank - although its not good for them they are managing to stay alive. the new fish are most likely coming from tanks that have fairly good water quality at the LFS and even though you are acclimating them, they can not handle the rapid change from no ammonia/nitrites to high.
my first recomendation would be to get you water tested. just becuase you water isn't cloudy from the bacterial bloom does not me your NH4 and NO2 levels have righted themselves. most LFS will test water for free if you are a customer. have them check your ammonia (NH4), nitrite (NO2), nitrate (NO3) and pH. also make them give you number measurements (versus "low" or "high") - your NH4 and NO2 should both be 0ppt and your NO3 should be no higher than 35ppt. pH for your fish should be in the neighborhood of 6.5-7.0.
a note on water changes - its usually better to do more frequent smaller water changes than really large ones. if you are having a water quality problem its better to do 2-3 50% changes over the course of 3-4 days than one big 90% water change. the reason goes back to changing water quality to rapidly for the fish to adjust. they get used to bad water (to an extent) just as they get used to good water. another reason for this is a bit more technical and it involves the interaction between the ratio of toxic to non-toxic NH4 and the pH. I will be happy to explain this at a later date if you are interested, but I must be on my way at the moment.
I hope this helps,
Sharyl
Sharyl C: thanks for your reply. around where i live the lfs just do not want to test your water. they would either ask you to buy the test kit and test it yourself, or they would want you to tell them the problem with your tank and help you solve it. the test kits are also pretty expensive so i've been slowly trying to get enough money for them.
IF my tank's ammonia and nitrite levels are high, how do i lower them? by doing more water changes? maybe 2-3 20% water changes per day? adding more nutrafin's powerful bacteria cycle?
i'm really quite interested in this technical bit about the nitrate and ammonia in the tank and how they are gotten rid of. could you further elaborate if you're free? thanks!
yashinfan
06-24-2003, 9:37 PM
Why do you float the bag in the water for 2 hours?!?! 15-30 minutes is enough to stabilize temperature. Just checking but you do open the bag before the first hour, right? Okay this is what I want you to try if you are going to try again:
1) Float the bag unopened for 15-30 minutes
2) Open the bag but have it still floating for 5 minutes.
3) Add a small amount of your tank water into the bag every 5-10 minutes.
4) Only add your fish to the tank after the bag is filled with 50% LFS water and 50% your water. Net them out of the bag instead of dumping it in with the LFS water.
If this doesn't work then there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with your water. What is your LFS that they won't test it for you? PetSmart does it, Al's Aquarium Services does it too. Complain to their manager that they are not helping you if they won't do this. If all else fails you'll just have to wait until you have enough money for test kits.
Encouraging illegal activities is prohibited by the TOS you agreed to when you joined the forum. OG
Sharyl C
06-25-2003, 12:19 PM
First give me a timeline of when you set up your tank, when you adding your "old/surviving" fish, when you had problems with bacterial bloom, and when you tried to add new fish that didn't survive.
I'm going to make the assumption that you didn't cycle your tank, or if you did it was unbalanced or partially completed when you began stocking your tank. If you want to give me more info on how you cycled you tank that would be good too.
Ok here's is a little bit on water chemistry please remember I'm not a chemist:)
In the wild and in your aquarium there is a Nitrogen cycle. It starts as fish and decaying organic material (i.e. dead plants or leftover food) produce ammonia (NH3) as a waste product. There are good bacteria (nitrosomas - i think) that break down the toxic NH3 into nitrItes (NO2). N02 are just as toxic as NH3. Another type of bacteria (nitrabacter) breaks down the NO2 into less toxic nitrAtes (NO3). NO3 is removed from the water as it is used by growing plants in the wild or planted aquarium , or through routine water changes.
If a tank is not allowed to cycle properly there is not enough of the good bacteria present to break down the toxic NH3 and NO2. and you end up with problem like cloudy water, dieing fish, and so on.
Ok so pH is also effected and has an effect in this process. As the levels of organics rise in your tank the pH will will decrease. This is one reason why its important to do routine water changes.
As the pH changes, signified by changes in the concentration of OH- and H+ ions in the water, the ratio between NH3 and NH4+ (less harmful ammonium ion) is changed. With a lower pH (higher H+) the ratio leans to the side of NH4+, therefore with a higher pH more NH3 is present. This is really technical but it can be applied to the following scenario. Imagine a tank is having an "ammonia" problem, and the pH has gradually dropped as described above. All of the fish are surviving, but perhaps there are signs of stress or a water test indicating a problem. The owner decides to do a big water to get the water quality back up to par. The water change raises the pH back to normal levels and tilts the ratio of NH3:NH4+ to the toxic NH3 side. Now the fish begin to die from the resulting water quality despite the well intentioned effort of the owner. So the lesson is smaller water changes to change the water quality slower.
ok so my advice is still continue doing smaller water changes as i mentioned earlier. and find some way to get your water tested. if your LFS won't do it for you - try another. also check with chain stores like petsmart/co, and walmart for cheaper test kits for you to buy. look online at Big Al's online or petsolutions.com for cheap supplies too.
i hope this wasn't too confusing
let me know if you need more help:)
sharyl
Sharyl C : thanks! that was very informative.:)
could you help me? my cousins have recently gotten onto this fish craze too and before you know it, my aunt being the indulgent mom she is because she is a single mom and loves my cousins to bits, bought them a 2ft tank(abt 50litres, 13.2gallons) and added into the tank two stalk of plants, 1 orange molly, 3 guppies, 2 corys, 6 neons and one glass catfish(the 6 neons and glass catfish were from my old tank and my aunt decided to 'save' them out of my horrible water conditions to put into her new tank)
it all sounds nice and lovely but the problem is very obvious. she has not cycled her tank at all!! i was not sure how to advice her so decided to ask you to help. besides a 10% water change everyday and adding cycling bacteria, is there anyway to help ease the production of waste in the tank before it gets too toxic and kills the fishes?
what else can she do to help promote the complete cycling of the tank?
so sorry to have bothered you!
if anyone else can help me, i would be grateful! thanks!
there's a great sticky in the newbie section that details what to expect when doing a fishy cycle.
I accidentally did one and managed to get 2 F8puffers throught the initial cycle (tho they died later:( ). The advise I got was to do regular (at LEAST daily) small water changes (15 - 20%). This will not slow the cycle down but will dilute the toxins to a level that the fish might be able to bear for a short while.
You mention cycling bacteria. If that is 'cycle' or suchlike, throw it away - its useless.
You can use a product called Bio-Spira if you're in the US, otherwise get a handful of gravel from a cycled tank (the friendly LFS?) and put that in the new tank to give the bacteria a helping hand.
If you do use Bio-Spira it needs handling correctly (refrigerating). This product (from other people's experiences) is the only 'bacteria in a bottle' that seems to do anything.
Oh, and you could buy something to bind the ammonia into ammonium (I think ammo-lock2 does it). This won't slow the cycle but will change the ammonia into a form that won't damage the fish as much (but may still test positive on test kits).
Did I mention the water changes...
You probably knew all that anyway, but still.
HTH
Ade
SBA : i just saw that sticky after posting and spent a great deal of time looking at everything everyone had to say in the nwebie section! it was tough and long job! :rolleyes:
BUT it was well worth it! learnt alot from there and really thank the people who took the time to do all these!
btw, i realise that my cycling bacteria product is as you said called cycle! why do you claim that it is useless? have you used it or have heard of anyone who used it before? it claims to consume ammonia and bacteria and helps to age new tanks.i've never seen bio-spira but then again i am not living in US...so that's also why Sharyl C i am unable to get my water tested at my lfs. its simply not done. the shop keepers around here rather you desribe what's wrong and they help you from there. and the test kits are really ex around my area and i can't seem to find the time and cash to get them!
will try to get down to the lfs to get 'the thing tt binds ammonia' and some test kits! :)
so all i can do now is try to give my fishes either back to the lfs or to my friends for keeping in their established tank? and change 20% of my tank water everyday? and try to feed less if i can't give away?
thanks for entertaining my questions!! can;t tell you how grateful i am.... =)))
somefinnfishy
06-26-2003, 9:20 AM
one more bit of advise the neons and ghost cats are not good choises for a unestablished tank.
For try 2 I'd go with some zebra dainios, gold barbs,tiger barbs,benous aries tetras and other of the hearty barbs and tetras all I listed think they are the bulley on the block so be care full with tank mate choises.
BTW 50% of all newbie tank probs come from over feeding IMHO
Most that come to work with new tank syndrome gasp when I show them the amount they should feed daily in my hand.
Sharyl C
06-26-2003, 9:45 AM
Oh no!
wait just a minute...
your tank will not cycle if you remove all the fish from it. the bacterial colonies that you have worked so hard for will consume the remining NH3 and NO2 and then die off because there is no food.
your aunt's tank will go through the same trouble you have had.
I would get some old water, gravel, and/or filter media from one of your friends established FW tanks and put it in your tank. These will have a good bit of bacteria and such that will help your tank through its cycle. This is was called seeding a tank. Once you've done this I would get your fish back from your aunt's tank and acclimate them by adding some of your tank water to the water they are transported in repeatdly over an hour or so.
Ask your friends if you can continue to get 3-5 gallons of their water a couple of times each week.
This would help your aunt's tank as well - if you have enough friends to share their old tank water. Also tell your aunt just what I told you earlier about frequent smaller water changes and lite feeding (one time every 2-3 days, only the amount the fish will eat in 2 minutes, and remove leftovers immediately!).
as far as cycle and ammo-lock go:
I used to work in a pet store where we sold both products. I found that customers that used cycle to start their tanks came back still having problems with high NH3/NO2 even though their water tests were reading zero on those and 20 on NO3 - it appeared to me that after adding cycle to the tank they were getting false readings on their tests and therefore causing more confusion and problems. I know personally cycle et.al. is no good. I have not used biospira personally, but I am still skeptical of how bacterial colonies that require oxygen to survive can be bottled, shelved, and stored in the fridge until use.
Ammo-lock may work, it may help ease some stress on your fish. I am not familiar with it eough to now how it works though. Without knowing that I would hestitate in using it. Getting your tank through a cycle that has started off on the wrong foot can be a difficult job to begin with...if you start adding drops of this and that to take care of problem A and problem B - it will only complicate things.
Keep it simple and be patient - because...
1. its a lot cheaper that way
2. people have been keeping aquariums for hundreds of years without all the extra stuff - mother nature knows what shes doing, she's just a little slow sometimes
3.Rome wasn't built in a day and it seems to me the biology and chemistry that needs to happen in a tank for it to cycle is a little more complicated.
somefinnfishy
06-26-2003, 11:18 AM
very good advise:D
BTW how did your store advise for cycleing down a newbie tank?
Me I read the people and those i think are inteligent I recomend fishless or a slow testing fish cycle.
The I want fish now and I dont want to test people I send them home with feeder goldfish and tell them to bring them back in three weeks and we will sell them the fish they wanted in the first place.
elmj - sharyl has the best advice, go with what she says.
I haven't used cycle, but the subject comes up regularly on here and it seems the consensus is to avoid it, for the reasons that sharyl is skeptical of biospira - how can this 'beneficial bacteria' survive in a bottle with no oxygen and no 'food'?
If you live in the UK then some LFS will test your water. The one I mainly use does it for free. It helps them 'fight their corner' if you go back with sick fish that you recently purchased (i.e. they can often blame the imperfect water conditions). If you can find one that does it ask what the exact results were, not 'pH is ok' which doesn't tell you anything.
Ade
somefinnfishy: i gasped too when my more experianced friends told me how much to feed!:) but they also tell me that fishes can generally live 3-4 days even if you don't feed them. btw, my glass catfish hasn't eaten ever since transfered to my aunt's tank. putting live worms into one of those plastic cone feeders and putting it in the tank doesn't seem to help because it just doesn't even want to go near it! what do i do?? just leave the live worms in there? or take them out and try every 3 hrs? my lfs tell you to add maybe 2 fishes at maximun and leave the tank to cycle for a week. after that, they say you're home free!
Sharyl C: so instead of giving all my fishes away perhaps i'll leave the 6 neons, 1 glass catfish and 2 guppies and one molly in there? is that enough to help with the cycle in a 2 ft tank? i find what you say quite true and think i shall just leave my tank the way it is, changing 20% of the water everyday. btw may i ask if the anti-chlorine is really helpful? what does it really do? i know of some experianced fish keepers who say they don't use anti-chlorine at all but rather just the normal tap water we get around here!
SBA : i agree sharyl seems very experianced! thank God for people like her and everyone here that helped me! :) what you said about the bacteria seems quite reasonable. i shall go down to the lfs to question about it! :) and i don't live in UK either. more like asia. if you go down to the lfs and tell them your fish died and explain to them your tank problem, if they think your tank is alright, they will give you a discount on your next fish with of course plenty of advice. if they think your tank has problems, they will send you back with the correct medication! that's about it!
thank you everyone for helping me out!
Sharyl C
06-27-2003, 4:03 PM
if i remember correctly a 2ft(24in) tank is normally a 20 gallon. the fish you listed will be plenty to get your tank cycled, actually probably too many. if you have a friend whose fish and tank are compatible with the neons and glass cat it may be a good idea to have them hang on to those until your tank has settled down. Guppies and mollies are much hardier fish, so I would use those to get your tank cycled.
as far as anti-chlorine drops, they are essential if you are using tap water. the most common active ingredient in them is sodium thiosulfate - when added to water that has chlorine in it the sodium(Na) binds to the chlorine(Cl) to make salt (NaCl), but don't worry its not enough salt to have an effect on your tank. Some people avoid using these drops, by setting water out the day before it is to be used. This allows the chlorine to off gas from the water - thus dechlorinating it. I've done it both ways - its really up to you.
I would recommend having some anti-chlorine drops handy at all times just in case you have to make an emergency water change.
Another thing when you purchase this look for one that says it works on both chlorine and chloramine. some water companies added chloramine to tap water as well - it can be just as harmful as chlorine if not neutralized. here in the US you can normally call the water company in your town and find out how they treat their water...not sure how it is on your side of the world though:)
I'm glad you have found my answers helpful and understandable:)