need help with goldfish please

[sheloudre]

:1zhelp: a couple different questions i want to ask, and some may be simple, others not to answer.
First: ever seen goldfish that hide most of the time, especially when you approach the tank? Other fish in tank are 2 adf's, and 3 3inch plecos. Tank is a 28g. None of the 3 gf are bigger than 2 inches each. And yes, i know they get bigger. Once they get bigger - including the plecos - they will have new homes for their size.

Second: We recieved 7 goldfish today from a friend who no longer wanted them. They've spent the summer in a small (1/2 whiskey barrel) pond and have developed something that makes their scales look 'loose'. All fish are in this shape, some worse than others. The pond water was horrid, almost black in color, so first thing we did was use fresh water for a tank for them. We took water out of one of our own tanks, since we needed to do water change anyways, and instead of dumping it, used it for their tank. Filled tank the rest of the way with fresh water, and a VERY small amount of water from the pond. So far so good. Everyone is swimming around well, but the scale problem worries me. I have them housed for now in the 10g tank the friends gave us with the fish. I know it's too small but with them sick, they won't be joining our other tanks yet. Am looking to return them to the local pet store, if i can't find other homes for them. Have Melafix here, Aquarisol, Maracyn, and Stress Coat, as well as Liquid Fungus Cure. Would any/all of these help these fish? I assume the BIGgest problem was the water they were in. Suggestions welcome.

[riddle4sphinx]

:1zhelp: a couple different questions i want to ask, and some may be simple, others not to answer.
First: ever seen goldfish that hide most of the time, especially when you approach the tank? Other fish in tank are 2 adf's, and 3 3inch plecos. Tank is a 28g. None of the 3 gf are bigger than 2 inches each. And yes, i know they get bigger. Once they get bigger - including the plecos - they will have new homes for their size.

Second: We recieved 7 goldfish today from a friend who no longer wanted them. They've spent the summer in a small (1/2 whiskey barrel) pond and have developed something that makes their scales look 'loose'. All fish are in this shape, some worse than others. The pond water was horrid, almost black in color, so first thing we did was use fresh water for a tank for them. We took water out of one of our own tanks, since we needed to do water change anyways, and instead of dumping it, used it for their tank. Filled tank the rest of the way with fresh water, and a VERY small amount of water from the pond. So far so good. Everyone is swimming around well, but the scale problem worries me. I have them housed for now in the 10g tank the friends gave us with the fish. I know it's too small but with them sick, they won't be joining our other tanks yet. Am looking to return them to the local pet store, if i can't find other homes for them. Have Melafix here, Aquarisol, Maracyn, and Stress Coat, as well as Liquid Fungus Cure. Would any/all of these help these fish? I assume the BIGgest problem was the water they were in. Suggestions welcome.

Aright first the 28gallon.... Its definitely too small right now for your fish.... Most people on here will tell you to get a 28gallon for a single fancy goldfish and then 10 more gallons of tank per each additional fancy goldfish. If your goldfish are comets, or feeder goldfish, they need an even larger tank than that. Fancy goldfish will be fine with that size but comets need lots of room to swim around which is why they work best in a pond or very large tank. Both types can get at least 8 inches long with large tanks.... comets can get over a foot long. They probably will not grow anymore in the tank they're in now due to stunting, which is a whole other thing I wont get into. So my suggestion is to upgrade your tank as soon as possibly depending on which type of goldfish you have. Plecos can also get over a foot long so if you plan on keeping them together.... you're talking a reallllllllllllllly big tank. If your fish are fancys, a possibility for why they hide is they could be getting bullied by the frogs (depending on how big the goldfish are). My dad made the mistake of switching tanks around once while I was at school and put my fancy goldfish in with an african clawed frog.... my mom walked by later to find the fish in the frog's mouth and it had eaten the fish's fins off. (It lived though and grew all its fins back). I've never kept adf's with goldfish before so I guess i'll let someone else handle this question.

My thought for your pond goldfish is, do the scales stick out like a pinecone? Could it be dropsy? 10 gallons is going to be way too small for them.... I'd say if you're going to keep them in there to treat, you're going to need to change some of the water maybe every other day and hopefully you've got a good filter running on there. Helping the fish heal will depend on your water quality, so keep it as clean as possible. If you have a test kit for nitrates and nitrites, this will help. Hope this helps!

P.S. There's a coldwater fish forum section where all the goldfish experts are more likely to answer your questions for your future reference :)

[sheloudre]

I am aware that the gf and plecos will be much larger. Btw, the adf's leave the gf alone, so they are not the ones causing the problem. We've watched for that all along, and if anything, it was the other way round. The gf are all fantails, and like i said, 2 inches each at the moment.

I am aware that the 10g for the pond fish is much too small for all those fish. We have another tank (34g) we will be setting up, but need to build a stand for it first. We haven't decided what will be going into that tank yet, as we have 8 tanks running at the moment. (see signature) I plan to use the larger tanks for the goldfish, and smaller ones for the other fish, but need to get these new fish healthy before we do anything with them. We are also on the lookout for a much larger tank, as we would love to have a large tank or two (50-90g) ideally. Just need to figure out what all we can put together with the fish we already have. I know the livebearers can all live together, and can mix some of the others with the goldfish, just haven't figured out the dynamics yet.

[cuticom]

How many hiding places doe your goldies have? I have a 55g with 3 fancy goldies and two random guppies (this isn't the final stocking btw, I'll be cutting down to just two goldies and the two guppies once the extra is old enough to move out to the pond) It's stuffed with plants and hidey holes and the fish love them, they come out when they feel comfortable and safe, and they'll just float around enjoying themselves. If you set the tank up so that they have plenty of places to go if they get scared, they will eventually come out on their own bat and let you see them.

If the feeders aren't stunted, you can't keep all of them in a tank, maybe one in a 90g, but the rest will need a pond.

The problem is that your already overstocked, goldfish release a growth inhibiting hormone which stunts them, I've seen enough of my stunted rescue fish die to know it is not a nice death at all, being flushed down the toilet would probably be nicer (not suggesting this either)

[DLV082]

:1zhelp:
Second: We recieved 7 goldfish today from a friend who no longer wanted them. They've spent the summer in a small (1/2 whiskey barrel) pond and have developed something that makes their scales look 'loose'. All fish are in this shape, some worse than others. The pond water was horrid, almost black in color, so first thing we did was use fresh water for a tank for them. We took water out of one of our own tanks, since we needed to do water change anyways, and instead of dumping it, used it for their tank. Filled tank the rest of the way with fresh water, and a VERY small amount of water from the pond. So far so good. Everyone is swimming around well, but the scale problem worries me. I have them housed for now in the 10g tank the friends gave us with the fish. I know it's too small but with them sick, they won't be joining our other tanks yet. Am looking to return them to the local pet store, if i can't find other homes for them. Have Melafix here, Aquarisol, Maracyn, and Stress Coat, as well as Liquid Fungus Cure. Would any/all of these help these fish? I assume the BIGgest problem was the water they were in. Suggestions welcome.

I would suggest 50% water changes daily at least as the tank is so small and also this will help the fish to recover by themselves, it is amazing what a fish can do for itself in good quality water, maybe some salt in the tank 1 tsp for a 10 gal. The fish are probably already stressed from being in such discusting water, adding more chemicals to the water should not be you first line of attack just keep the water changes up and see what happens.

Hope this helps and good luck with these fish.

Cheers
Debbie

[silentskream]

I agree with daily 50% water changes for the pond fish. maybe even twice daily.

as far as the scared fish.. how are the water parameters? sometimes high nitrates cause that kind of behavior. most goldfish dont need a place to hide. mine have none.. the only exception to this is pond fish that need to hide from potential predators.

i know it's been addressed already, but i just want to clarify that the goldfish dont grow BEFORE you move them to a larger tank, they grow AFTER. so getting a bigger tank should happen soon, so that the fish will be able to grow.

[sheloudre]

We are looking into building a pond for all our goldfish come spring, we have the place, just need time to dig the hole now. How big a pond should we have/contemplate for 22 goldfish? Ideally i am guessing something like 1800g or so. Those 'in the know' please let me know, so we can figure out dimensions for it. Like i said, we have a place picked out, but aren't sure exactly how big gallons-wise we would need. Would - say a 10x10x3 pond be too small? Also, anyone know what is a good depth for them? I am also posting this question in the pond section, so no need to move this post.

Will let you know how the gf respond to clean water, as we threw a second hob filter on the 10g for now. So far the water is now clear, and no waste is on bottom - at all. Am continuing pwc's every 1-2 days as well. Once we get the 34g setup, we will most likely move them into that for the winter. (Better that than the 10g.)
Below is a list of what types of fish (and how many of each) we own currently. Any ideas which ones would be happy in smaller tanks, as we have an abundance of small tanks. (Other than the bettas, of course)

3 mollies
5 white clouds
2 zebra danios
female betta
11 guppies
2 otos
sailfin pleco
2 whiptail plecos
chinese algae eater
banjo catfish
2 corycats
1 platy
2 dwarf frogs
1 rosy red

Then we have the goldfish, and i know we have too many for the tanks we own. Our bigger tanks, as i said, will become gf tanks for the time being. 11 fantails, and 9 comet types.

[DLV082]

Have you ever though of selling/trading the smaller tanks and getting a large tank to accommodate your fish. Would save some time in water changes. Just a thought.

Cheers
Debbie

[Dwarf Puffers]

Why 22 gold fish? You only have 9. 10'x3'x3' = 673g, a third of what you're aiming for. For an 1870g, you'd need 10'x6'x6', or you could get a 1795g if you went 12'x4'x5' (reverse the 4 and 5 if you want).

If you kept only the 3 plecos and 9 goldies, you could get a school of maybe 25 rosy reds in there, more if you liked. I'd suggest a 2240g (12'x6'x6', or if you wouldn't be comfortable with a 6' deep pond, a 2155g is 12'x7'x4') for 22 goldfish and the plecos, IMO, it should be bigger, especially with the plecos, but that's up to you.

[sheloudre]

Sorry - i class our fantails as gf too, hence the 22. Are they not classed the same? I understood they were. Am i wrong?

Not sure our plecos would survive the winters outside here, as temps can get to -30+ in winter. Plecs would probably stay indoors. Unless someone knows of a coldwater pleco?

We are thinking something like a 10x10x whatever depth (4+ feet) we need, for the pond. Want to have it a year-round pond, as we don't have large enough tanks for bigger fish, once they do grow.

As to the ? about the smaller tanks being traded in, first off - no store takes second hand tanks here, and add to that the fact of one tiny house (860 sq ft) small tanks fit better. Not easy to find space for large tanks with all the furniture we have already.

[silentskream]

faintails are a type of goldfish but they are slower swimmers and occasionally can get overrun by the comet type.. also, comets can handle colder water... and would be able to weather the winter frosts easier.

common plecos are coldwater. and pond heaters are a very common investment.. they'll make it a little easier to keep a pond going all year long.

you can try putting your spare tanks up for sale on craigslist.com

[DLV082]

Sorry -
Not sure our plecos would survive the winters outside here, as temps can get to -30+ in winter. Plecs would probably stay indoors. Unless someone knows of a coldwater pleco?


You could do what I do with my pleco at the moment. He goes in the pond during the warmer months and comes inside during the cold months. But I am looking at trying to keep the pond warm enough during the cold months so he can stay outside as I think he prefers it.

Cheers
Debbie

[Dwarf Puffers]

Ah, sorry, I was looking in your sig.

[Firebelly__girl]

faintails are a type of goldfish but they are slower swimmers and occasionally can get overrun by the comet type.. also, comets can handle colder water... and would be able to weather the winter frosts easier.

common plecos are coldwater. and pond heaters are a very common investment.. they'll make it a little easier to keep a pond going all year long.

you can try putting your spare tanks up for sale on craigslist.com

common plecs are not cold water, they are a lot hardier when it comes to colder water that other tropical fish, but when I had mine in the 60's he wasn't a happy camper, but I added him to a tank that was about 75-80 degree's stable and he was much happier, eating more, and zipping around the tank sucking the glass at night. A lot of people do keep them in cold water tanks though, I just don't think they prefer it, I think at long as its 70 and up they would be ok though.

[silentskream]

i'll concede to that.

a heater for a pond is, in my opinion, always a good idea.. even with goldfish. better safe than sorry.

[sheloudre]

Just took this pic, trying again for a decent pic of what i've been terming 'loose scales' on the one goldfish. Have been treating with melafix for 1 week, and no change in him. Tank is developing algae something fierce though - a clean-out coming up this weekend.

[riddle4sphinx]

goldfish do tend to lose scales once in awhile... its nothing serious as long as like clumps of them arent falling off. is that maybe just the lighting? have you seen scales actually falling off or just looking loose?

also, the algae is going to be caused by either lots of sunlight directly on your tank, or an overabundance of nitrates... make sure you keep up with water changes (probably every couple days about 30%) and this should help battle it.

[DLV082]

goldfish do tend to lose scales once in awhile... its nothing serious as long as like clumps of them arent falling off. is that maybe just the lighting? have you seen scales actually falling off or just looking loose?

also, the algae is going to be caused by either lots of sunlight directly on your tank, or an overabundance of nitrates... make sure you keep up with water changes (probably every couple days about 30%) and this should help battle it.

I agree except with the amount and frequency of water changes. If the fish are have scale problems I would be doing 50% daily at least especially as you have to many fish in that size tank.

Cheers
Debbie