Discus - Need Help, HITH, not eating

[coolnicks]

Due to PH problems I've been having (very unstable) my two smaller discus have become very ill, and stopped eating. I first thought it was because they were being bullied by, and not getting food, because of the large discus, but upon moving them to their own tank I could see they were very ill, with, I’m almost 100% hole in the head. I've been treating the whole tank with esha hexamita for 4/5 days, it seems to have cleared, but they are still not eating at all, or maybe only a few scraps when I’m not looking.

I've been trying to feed them bloodworm, beef heart, discus mix, tetra colour pro, tetra prime, but they are not interested in any of it. I even try to target feed them with bloodworms, but right in front of their face, they are not interested. They are clearly very very thin.

I'm wondering what to do next really, I've run out of esha hexamita, will get some more at the weekend.

I'm thinking: UV back on, Large water change, Carbon back in.

But what can I do. Should I try some live food (I'm not sure they would go for this), force feeding etc

What do you think? (rbishop?)

BTW Its also worth mentioning, I wormed them about....4 weeks ago.

Many Thanks

Nick

[kr0nic]

Make sure the temps up high (30 Degrees C), keep doing partial daily water changes, try and find some live food for them perhaps ?

Oh and dont make 3 friggen topics in a row asking the same thing.

[coolnicks]

Make sure the temps up high (30 Degrees C), keep doing partial daily water changes, try and find some live food for them perhaps ?

Temps at 30, will try and find some live food.


Oh and dont make 3 friggen topics in a row asking the same thing.

Hey, chill, AC was down for me, timeouts, connection refused etc, got no confimation it was posted. PMed mod on site and in chat, should be gone soon - cant delete it myself.

[Star_Rider]

typically with discus bump the temp and add salt
tho young discus can take temps to 90(32 c)

add an airstone

bt parasites don't do well in this temp.

the only issue that concerns me is possible that this could be bacterial in nature.
how long have they not been eating?
and in terms of worming what meds?

[pinkertd]

Star_rider - would Gel Tec drops be of any use, even if he had to try to get a couple of drops directly into the fish's mouth?

[AngJo72]

Heya,

84/86 is the highest I would go.. and give them some frozen blood worms or daphnia.. of course water changes.. Temp should help with whatever is going on.

Ang

[Star_Rider]

gel might work deb you are right if you can get the gel into the mouth.
angjo72,
as for temp don't be afraid of 90's with discus.they can easily withstand higher temps than 84-86, I have had mine in 90 with no issues.
particulalry juveniles who seem to thrive in warm water.
it is actually quite common to treat stressed discus to 88-90 with salt you add an airstone to help the lower dissolved O2 in the warm water. at 88-90 the temp will kill most parasites.

the issue comes from bacteria which will have issues with salt.

how fast this progressed may also help point to the source of the problems. I asked about which meds were used as some are not effective with some parasites.
not eating, darkening and or clamped fins points to an internal issue.

hexamita generally refers to flagellated protozoans .
using meds like metronidazole is common for treatment of this problem. if it is this problem..ore recently there have been incidents with Capillaria ( not visible)and camillanus(visible as red threadlike protrusions.)
if these are present you will need to change meds to fenbenzadole, flubenzadole or Levamisol Hcl.
note...even after treatment the fish may not eat immediately.
adding blodworms(frozen/thawed) may trigger eating as might daphnia.

if they are not eating then treating the water may be the only option.

btw bacterial infections may also show similar Sx.

[joander123]

say star, what about Epsom salt instead of regular salt? Regular salt will help the fish breath better in ammonia/nitrite but hes saying they aren't eating which makes me think constipated. Epsom salt is a laxative which could help the fish out more in my opinion.

My treatment would be.
1. Bump up temp to 88
2. UV back on
3. Larger water changes per day (or more frequent)
4. Add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt per 10 gallons
5. Replenish the salt after a water change (salt should only be dosed twice if it hasn't worked in a day it most likely wont work at all.)
6. Keep dosing HITH medications (i've never actually used a specific one)

If the above does not seem to help i would.
1. Dose regular salt (1-2 tablespoons per 10 gallons)
2. Keep up the water changes
3. Turn on UV
4. Keep Dosing medications

[coolnicks]

Thanks for the advice, but, Im very sad to say one passed this morning, and the other is very very close behind. Its the first problems ive had with my discus in a long long time, and its breaking my heart.

I now need to focus on another discus, he is hiding at the back of the tank, he was eating, but Im not sure he did tonight, clamping his fins on and off, he dosent look thin, and no visible holes in the head, or any other visible problems, he does not seem thin from what I can see.

Im feeding everyone blood/white worms soaked in HITH meds, the UV is on, but Im going to start dosing meds in the tank again, and will need to turn the UV off.

Im very sure this is all HITH related, one of the rams had what looked like whitespot over his head, but could have been HITH.



how long have they not been eating?

The small ones, maybe a week.


and in terms of worming what meds?

They were wormed with a discus worming powder containing flubendazole, from a flubenol premix containing flubendazole 50%

EDIT: I also have Epsom salt in stock, use it? safe to use with HITH meds?

[Star_Rider]

if they are bloated that would point to possible constipation.

the smaller discus have a much higher metabolism than the older discus .
one reason they handle warm water.
that mix would have removed most internal parasites,
which leads me to think possible bacterial infection.

after using the meds you did a large water change?

also if they are bloated one side effect of the meds is..they may not pass internal parasites(also indicative of bloating)

epsoms can be used in a bath if you chose to remove the affected fish and try a 20-30 min bath.

I hate to say this but you can perform and 'autopsy' on the deceased fish..I did it once on a keyhole that was fine then died..i found it was a she and had become egg bound.

do you have qt tank available?

[coolnicks]

if they are bloated that would point to possible constipation.

They do not seem bloated at all, quite the opposite.


after using the meds you did a large water change?

Ive been doing lots of smaller water changes everyday as not to change the PH too much, as im changing water types slightly.


I hate to say this but you can perform and 'autopsy' on the deceased fish..I did it once on a keyhole that was fine then died..i found it was a she and had become egg bound.

I'm ok with that, I currently have the fish in the fridge, but have not done one as Im not really sure what Im looking for, I guess that state of the stomch, and kidneys, gall bladder, and state of the intestines - if its normal, scar tissue etc


do you have qt tank available?

Yes, many many tanks available :)

Also the other smaller discus passed this morning.

[Star_Rider]

They do not seem bloated at all, quite the opposite.

this indicates it probably is not constipation..but more likely another internal ailment



Ive been doing lots of smaller water changes everyday as not to change the PH too much, as im changing water types slightly.

why and how?



I'm ok with that, I currently have the fish in the fridge, but have not done one as Im not really sure what Im looking for, I guess that state of the stomch, and kidneys, gall bladder, and state of the intestines - if its normal, scar tissue etc
you won;t be able to see flagellated protozoans or capillaria but you may see some abnormalities or larger parasites


Yes, many many tanks available :)

Also the other smaller discus passed this morning.
I'm curious why the water 'type' change??

[coolnicks]

I'm curious why the water 'type' change?

Since I’ve kept the discus, until a few months ago, I thought everything was fine. I kept it very very soft, and at PH 6.8, using RO & TMC discus minerals, until a few months back when I had a bad PH crash, for what I can see, no reason, since then I’ve bought 2 ph monitors/controllers, and ever since I’ve seen the PH just fall constantly, down to ~4 when I have to bring it back up, then it falls again - even when I was doing massive water changes everyday, next to no KH.

I think its a product designed for everyday water changes, or there is something drastically wrong with my tank - but I've now ruled everything out I can think of, so I'm moving over to TMC tropical minerals, harder, and a higher PH, but the higher KH should be enough to keep the PH stable.

On a separate note, I’ve been feeding the discus dry/frozen food soaked in esha hex, morning and evening for the last few days, and I noticed tonight the one I thought was ill, has started to do white/clear stringy poo, so hopefully its killing the parasites and flushing them out.

[Star_Rider]

just curious.. do you run carbon?

I wonder what mineral is used to stabilze the pH. it may be possible that it was precipitaing out and you were losing the buffers.

why RO? is there something wriong with other source water? is it possible to mix ro with source(tap)?

[coolnicks]

just curious.. do you run carbon?

Yes, I do.


I wonder what mineral is used to stabilze the pH. it may be possible that it was precipitaing out and you were losing the buffers.

Calcium and Magnesium I believe


why RO? is there something wriong with other source water? is it possible to mix ro with source(tap)?

My tap water is very very hard, and is full of nitrates. I could mix, but would be adding a lot of nitrates back in.

[Star_Rider]

try removing the carbon..many discus advocates seem to think that carbon is a breeding ground for Protozoa.( critters responsible for hexamita)

given your tap water I would continue to use ro with the right buffers.

I have 20 ppm nitrates in my tap,,I keep my discus in a planted tank and nitrates are not a problem as they are used up by the plants.
I also keep discus..mine are domestic tho and are pretty tough.