ICH......

[shanefee]

what doe,s it look like . Is it light white dots or is it bright dots that stand out. Just thought id ask just in case . Never seen it thats all.

[Grins]

Typically shows up on the fins first and looks like white specs. The specs are actually cysts so they won't all be the same size.

[shanefee]

Thanks again Grinns.

[shanefee]

Asked today what ich was like. Been sat in front of my tank for an hour and half and i think my lipstick tang has it . here,s some pic.s :sad::sad::sad:331803318133182

[azzoa]

That looks like ick to me. And once you see it you have to work quick to get rid of it. If it gets in their gills then they are toast. Ick works in cycles so you may see the spots one day and then not the next. Then all of a sudden all your fish have it. Once it gets in your system you need to either treat your whole tank (but not if it's reef). The best way is put the fish in QT and treat with copper or malachite green(Quick Ick).

[shanefee]

Would it be better to take the corels out and snails. If the fish have to come out ill have to take all the rock out to catch the fish.

[Grins]

Looks like it to me, PBTs are notorious for getting the parasite. Unfortunately the parrasite is now in your display tank. What else do you have in the display and do you have a QT or hospital tank?

["13"]

turn up the heat in the tank also this will help kill the ich

[Grins]

turn up the heat in the tank also this will help kill the ich


That could be problematic as well as not uber effective for marine ich in my opinion.

["13"]

That could be problematic as well as not uber effective for marine ich in my opinion.

You know i was kinda thinking that. Would turning the heat up damage the Corals ? ( i plan on turning my 30g FW into a salt water tank soon )

[Grins]

Marine stock doest fare well with swings in temp, especially inverts such as corals. Marine ich is also treated differently than FW ich.

I only feel safe with 2 different types of treament and those include hyposalinity and copper. These are ONLY safe for fish. They will kill inverts (snails, crabs, featherdusters, corals, etc.) and much of what lives in the live rock. For this reason these types of treatments are performed in a hospital tank under close supervision. The copper treatment must be done in conjunction with the appropriate type of copper test kit and the hyposalinity method must be done with a refractometer not a hydrometer. All fish should be treated even if they don't show signs of it yet and the display tank must be left fallow for a minimum of 6-8 weeks. Otherwise the parasite will not have had time to go through the cycle without a host. Without a host they'll die. No fish, no host....and then I believe you can rid your tank of ich.

There are other opinions on ways to treat marine ich but the ones above are what I personally feel comfortable with.

[RPetty]

does Ich Attack work?

[Grins]

Perhaps these the remedies that claim to be reef safe are indeed reef safe. But I've heard too many mixed reviews on them to be willing to risk it myself.

[Charlesr1958]

As usual, Grins has given very sound advice and agree with her on the treatment of this problem. I have heard a great many myths about this parasite that is has become comical. Understand thy enemy and you can defeat it.

Marine Ick (http://home2.pacific.net.ph/%7Esweetyummy42/ich.html)

and for a good laugh - Myths (http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/myths.html)

Chuck

[shanefee]

QT tank set up just making sure water is ok ready for fish. And if the fish have to stay out for six weeks can i still put corals in to the main tank, or is it best to leave it.
And i,d like to say thanks to every one who helped.

[Charlesr1958]

I would not add anything to the main tank simply because if the coral's base or the rock its attached to came from a system with Ich, you could be introducing the parasite again. Lets say you were 4 weeks into the tank being fishless and then introduce the parasite again, those new arrivals could very well survive up to when you put fish into the tank after another two weeks and have to start all over again.

Chuck

[shanefee]

Chears mate best leave alone

[1boatnut]

Would love to see some studies showing where the tank needs to be fallow for a minium of 6-8 weeks.

Not that it could hurt


Please post any links if possible

[Grins]

I don't subscribe to zoology journals but I've read a quite a few articles and posts by those that do or have participated in the studies. The marine ich parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) can live in the cyst portion of it's life cycle for 6 weeks. Eight weeks is used to allow time for it to complete the theront stage.

I'm sure a google search will bring up several reports that are similiar and hey maybe even a free copy of the actual lab data.

[1boatnut]

I don't subscribe to zoology journals but I've read a quite a few articles and posts by those that do or have participated in the studies. The marine ich parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) can live in the cyst portion of it's life cycle for 6 weeks. Eight weeks is used to allow time for it to complete the theront stage.

I'm sure a google search will bring up several reports that are similiar and hey maybe even a free copy of the actual lab data.


Man, I would love to see some of these reports.
All the reading and studies I have read thus far usually state 4 weeks,(a small % said 6wks) but never a Minium of 8wks,thus my interest.
Also I am in the process of treating Ich and would certainly hate to cut it short if that is truly the time needed.
If you run across any of these reports could you please pass them on?

[Grins]

Doubtful I'll be searching for them anytime soon but I know I took their advice and went for a 6-8 week period. There was no way I was going to cut the period short to 4 weeks when I did it. If some sources say minimum of 4 and others say minimum of 6 and they are both professional sources why risk the 4 weeks when it easy enough to add to more weeks? You certainly won't be harming anything. Where in reverse there is a possibility you've just put all your work to waste.

[clown-lover]

I agree with Grins on this.. Its kind of like the business I'm in.. We over order cable and over pull length to a certain extent simply because it will cost more in the long run with labor if you are short and have to redo it..

The same principle goes with this.. Why risk putting fish back into a tank only for them to recontact the disease and you have to start all over. I think the additional stress of moving them back to a QT tank would be worse then just leaving them there for the additional time. Just over do it to begin with, make sure you cover the whole cycle time and ensure success from the beginning.

[1boatnut]

I think the point of my question is kinda being missed here.

1st,as most, I like to research,and I have never seen any stating a MINIUM of 8 weeks,so how would I know they are a "professional source".

Although you won't be harming anything
(again,debatable information for fish's kidneys),niether would 12 weeks.
Why not just leave the fish in 1.09 indefinately and never have to worry about Ich again?
I'm just trying to locate accurate information on your statement,and could not. I figured maybe you saved a source or two for future references or something and could make it available. I guess not.

2nd,(in my case) no stress on the part of my fish as they are in the same tank already,so no moving involved.

[Grins]

Nothing I've seen states it must be a minimum of 8 weeks but rather a minimum of 6-8 weeks. I personally went with 6 weeks but not because I thought the 8 weeks was untrue but because I was weak and didn't wait it out another 2.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of your question is really if you've decided to treat in your display versus a qt though. Is it to sincerely search for method that has been found to work for others or is it to dispute what has been said by some here?

[1boatnut]

Nothing I've seen states it must be a minimum of 8 weeks but rather a minimum of 6-8 weeks. I personally went with 6 weeks but not because I thought the 8 weeks was untrue but because I was weak and didn't wait it out another 2.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of your question is really if you've decided to treat in your display versus a qt though. Is it to sincerely search for method that has been found to work for others or is it to dispute what has been said by some here?

The point of my question was: your source/s on the information you posted.
I sincerely search for accurate information,and apologize that when asking where you got your info from you take it as being disputed.

[Grins]

I have mulitple sources is the point, I read voraciously and as my club librarian the books I have access to are neccessarily available online. Some of the names I've come to trust on many issues include Bob Fenner, Eric Borneman, Julian Sprung, and a local tank owner that has been a speaker at MASNA conventions Kip Peeler.

[1boatnut]

Thanks,now I can do some more voracious reading:

Like this is interesting from Bob Fenner,especially the salinity part

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

The Real Deal: Treating Fishes in Isolation, Allowing the Main System to "Go Fallow"

There are no "reef-safe" and effective treatments for crypt. NONE. Curing infested fishes involves separating them from non-fish livestock and treating them in that other system (or alternatively moving the non-fish livestock). Infested systems can be made "crypt-free" or better "crypt-virulence-reduced" by having them kept free of fish hosts for several (4 or more) weeks without fishes. If practical, elevating temperatures and possibly lowering specific gravity (to the tolerance of other non-fish livestock) can be employed to "speed up" the loss of virulence of the parasites. In practical terms we are generally talking the low to mid 80's F. and 1.017-1.018... with these values adjusted over days time. Care must be exercised in not possibly transmitting disease organisms from the quarantine system... on nets, containers, hands... anything wet, and drying, otherwise sterilizing quarantine tanks and gear between uses.

A) Hyposalinity, lowered specific gravity. Some advocates place lower spg. as low as 1.009. This can work if your fishes are not too challenged already or the pathogen too virulent, however it will not effect a permanent system cure. Know that most common measures of specific gravity are temperature specific and that most non-fish livestock will not tolerate the lower limit (14-16 ppt salinity) necessary to kill off the parasites. Therefore your fishes will have to be separated from your non-fish livestock if you're using hyposalinity as a treatment mode. And there are exceptions, variations to consider using hyposalinity. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks, rays) cannot be treated in this fashion... and such osmotic changes need to be made gradually (over days).


Thanks again for the info

[1boatnut]

shanefee,

Also in your search for aid in your problem with Ich the use of Garlic has not been mentioned.
Note: This is not any cure,but it is supposed to help with the fish's immune system. A fish with a healthier immune system may be able to ward off some diseases.

Many are availabe.
Garlic Extreme
Garlic Guard
and some people actually squeeze fresh garlic for the juice.

Just thought I would throw this out there for the future

[Grins]

Thanks,now I can do some more voracious reading:


You'll find he often recommends going beyond that when responding these days. Anyhow, I stand by my previous recommendation and as always encourage all to read and gain their own opinion.

[Reefscape]

When treating Ich in this example, one thing always has to be impressed, and that is peoples personal experience of dealing with a certain subject or issue. People do what they feel is right, after reasearching the subject and listening to what others have got to say that worked for them. There is no "you must do it this way, or do it that way", no-one can stipulate that, and they dont. When someone presents a solution to an issue that worked for them, others should either read and accept what the person has said and implement it, or simply take that knowledge and research it and bring yourself to a happy medium with it.

In this situation, nobody is saying "you must keep a tank fallow for a minimum of 8 weeks", what they are saying is that it worked for them. If you do not have your "own personal experience" of a subject, then you have to take on board what people say who do have it rather than cross-examine.

Everyone is here to help eachother out of a sticky situation by passing on their knowledge.

So, if a person disagree's with a way to do something but does not know the solution themselves, then research it and make up your own mind.

Niko

[1boatnut]

When treating Ich in this example, one thing always has to be impressed, and that is peoples personal experience of dealing with a certain subject or issue. People do what they feel is right, after reasearching the subject and listening to what others have got to say that worked for them. Niko

I agree.


There is no "you must do it this way, or do it that way", no-one can stipulate that, and they dont. Niko

Sorry,not what I read




All fish should be treated even if they don't show signs of it yet and the display tank must be left fallow for a minimum of 6-8 weeks. Otherwise the parasite will not have had time to go through the cycle without a host.




In this situation, nobody is saying "you must keep a tank fallow for a minimum of 8 weeks", what they are saying is that it worked for them.

Not true


Nothing I've seen states it must be a minimum of 8 weeks but rather a minimum of 6-8 weeks. I personally went with 6 weeks but not because I thought the 8 weeks was untrue but because I was weak and didn't wait it out another 2.





Everyone is here to help eachother out of a sticky situation by passing on their knowledge.

So, if a person disagree's with a way to do something but does not know the solution themselves, then research it and make up your own mind.
If you do not have your "own personal experience" of a subject, then you have to take on board what people say who do have it rather than cross-examine.


Niko

If thats the case why the defensive attitudes when asking for the source/s of the information.I certainly would have no problem if someone asked the whereabouts of information I posted.Sorry you feel that is cross-examine.
As far as the research you mention,this board IS as much a part of a person's reasearch as any other,thats the reason they asked.
As far as "own personel knowledge" read my posts. I AM currently treating Ich and WAS trying to get information,but Valid information, so as to "make up my own mind",but instead I get this.
In post #26 Grins finally points out some areas of information,to which I found interesting andI thanked Her.
So truly heed your own comments rather than do your own cross-examine.
I never realzed trying to get helpful information could be so daunting.
:popcorn::popcorn::o

[Grins]

I clearly stated in post #11 that what I was suggesting was what I feel comfortable with personally and that there are other opinions on how to treat ich. That will be my last comment on the thread unless it pertains to Shane's original question.

[shanefee]

There is always one who trys to turn things around. Grinns was,nt saying you have to do it for 6 to 8 weeks just that she did . Anyway if you go to post#14 and read marine ick what Charlesr 1958 put in . CHEARS MATE brilliant bit of info.:thm:

[Rbishop]

I would like to ask that everyone post your thoughts on your ideas of what is appropriate for SW ich cure, and stay away from any attack on one another, especially if it involves a finite definition of "4 or more" or trying to pin an exact time period to a range.

Advice was requested by the OP, and it was offered up on what has worked for many. There is no need to hijack the thread into an arguement on semantics.

Thanks.

[clown-lover]

While I don't claim to be a scientist of any kind I have however done a lot of reading on the subject from when I had LaVerne and with Tangs being more "susceptible" to ich I figured I would get a head start.

While performing my research I did rely on the scientific publication of the life cycle of the the marine ich parasite. The total life cycle which is pretty much agreed on in almost every article I red was for the marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans ) breaks down into the following categories

Tomonts - Reproductive State (3 to 28 Days) Peak Time Day 6 +/- 2
Theronts - Infective State (24 to 48 Hours)
Trophonts - Parasitic State (3 to 7 Days) Peak Time Day 4 to 5
Mature Forms - Disassociation State (up to 18 Hours) - Back to encasement (Tomonts)

If you work worse case scenario, which I believe with any disease is the best course of action to base your analysis on simply due to the fact that the worse case scenario can and does happen, it works out to be a about 38 days (37.75 for you that want specific numbers). If you divide this by the number of days in a week (7) you get 5.39 weeks. With a parasitic disease I don't believe that rounding down is a good idea so I round this number up to 6 weeks.

After you look at this I then would also suggest that you need to calculate your time from the day after you remove your fish from the tank until you place the fish back into the tank.

Also being the type of person who is always wanting to go for the safe number I have decided based on my research and on the advice of those who have had marine ich in their tanks that 6 or 7 weeks would be a good Quarantine Number to work from...

These are my suggestions based on my own research.. I however suggest that you do your own research on the web using Google.. There is TONS of information on this subject.