Neons not Schooling

[tara brown]

Hi All,

3 weeks ago i added 6 neons to my 30tall and 2 weeks ago i added 4 more. They are not schooling at all - they are just all over. I'm disappointed because they look so beautiful when they school.

Is this normal? do i need more of them to school?

They share their tank with 3 rasboras, a guppy, an ember tetra and some cories.

Thanks,

Tara

[ct-death]

A couple of things:

1) fish typically take up to 2 weeks to settle into their surroundings and it is not uncommon for fish to take this time before exhibiting "natural" behavior, or what we take for such.

2) The act of schooling a defensive behavior against predators. Although most schooling fish do this innately, the presence of a 'stressor' will bring this out more profoundly.

3) TOO much stress (ie. a cycling tank) will inhibit natural behaviors...

A "stressor" can be in the form of many things. Simply having the tank in a high traffic area (near a door, or in a hallway) will be very sucessful, over stocking, introducing a larger fish into the tank, etc. are all good choices if compatible, but remember, they will exhibit this behavior once they settle in and, and again, just to re-inforce the point, any stress is ultimately not a good thing imo, but in some cases needed for a healthy system. <--I can explain if needed. ;)

[tara brown]

Wow, that's really interesting - thanks!
What larger fish would be compatible in a 30tall with the fish i have already mentioned? Looking to add more fish anyway....

Tara

[ct-death]

No problem. :)

As for the stocking, you have a lot of schooling fish that require friends. Remeber to try and keep your schoolers in groups of 6+ (ie. Rasboras)

Also, I personally suggest that Cories also be kept in small groups of 4+ (3 is the bare minimum if the situation prevents more).

As for what I use, I like my Dwarf Neon Gouramis. When he swims around it naturally makes the Neons gravitate towards one another. I like this b/c the gouramis is completely passive towards them, but he is 6x their size and just naturally intimidates the neons imo.

Lastly, how many fish do you of each species?

[tara brown]

I've got 10 neons, 3 harlequin rasboras (i did have 6 but 3 died in a huge tank misadventure), 1 poor ember tetra (also, had more but he is the lone survivor), and 5 cories.

I am looking for very hardy fish for my tank as i am still a newbie.

[pinkertd]

Tara - I've had neons off and on for years and really never saw them school! Even when I'd get down to 3 or 4 they didn't even stay together. I did see the funniest thing in my LFS last week. They had apparantly gotton in a lot of new stock so the neon tank was really, really crowded with neons. They had placed a tall over shaped rock in the center of the neon tank. The neons were circling the rock.....the entire tank! It made me laugh out loud! I thought....they each keep following the one in front so it's never gonna stop till somebody finally puts a net in the tank or something! The best real schooling fish I have ever had (and still have) is rummynose tetras. I have 12 that go everywhere and do everything totally together!

[southpaw]

Only time I have seen of my fish school was when they were first put in the tank....they would all stay together for about a week. They will also school up while during water changes but go back to doing their own thing shortly after...... My bloodfin tetras do stay in groups of 2 or 3 alot playing chase around everything in the tank.

Like mentioned before stress is a big factor that makes them school .... So I look at it like this...If I one day I started seeing all of them schooling I would be looking into what is stressing them out

[skillful abbot]

I catch my neons and rasboras schooling from time to time. Sometimes all together. Usually when they are sleep. They all hover together. Bust of the time they are all off srummaging....

[tjg2007]

My neons actually school most of the time. They tend to go their own ways after lights out but other than that they stick together pretty much. The first school I had had 3 eaten by Opaline Guoramis and I got 5 to add to the 3 remainders when I thought that issue was cleared up but the remaining gourami killed 2 more so I am back to a school of 6. And they all schooled up right away.

Right now the 6 neons are in with 5 guppies, 5 painted platies, and 2 goldfish (I know they are coldwater in with the more tropical types but they like it). The Goldfish may be why they school so much as they are about 4 inches long right now and the neons are so tiny.

[tara brown]

wow...i just thought neons would naturally school in my tank. My rasboras are aways together!

[msjinkzd]

my neons and cardinals school together all of the time. Occasionally a neon will stray away from the group. I have two honey gourami in the tank with them that may be enough of a "stressor or threat" to keep them together.

[jmhart]

The most likely reason you are not witnessing schooling is because your tank is too narrow. Fish school as a defensive technique. Schooling fish like to be able to see at least 2 or 3 members of the school at all times in order to feel safe. In tall tanks, like your 30 tall, a member of a 6+ school can pretty much always see at least 3 other members of the school. The members are spread out, and therefore each contribute to the school's "sight" of the tank. In a tall tank, a school of 6+ will always know exactly what is going on in the tank at all times, and they don't have to school to do this. Additionally any time that they do begin to school, the tank is so narrow(width wise) that the "school" doesn't have time to make more than, say, one fluid motion before they hit the other side of the tank and turn around.

I'd sorry to say, tanks like this aren't great for schools. Tall tanks are fine, but to really see schooling effects, you really need long tanks, not tall. Even a 30 L isn't a great tank for schooling. I have 8 serpae tetra's in my 30L and I barely see anything. You really need something a good 48" long to see schooling behavior.

Contrary to what has been mentioned, schooling fish will school less as they grow comfortable with their environment. It's a defensive action, so if they don't feel like they are in danger, they won't do it. Point is, some techniques to encourage it are to put the tank in a high traffic area(as has already been said) and to keep one or two larger fish that could be deemed a predator. I have 3 gold gourami's in my 30L. They aren't aggressive, just territorial, therefore my serpae tetras interpret them as a threat, so they do school a little.

[pinkertd]

So Jeffrey what you're saying in my case for example, I have a 72G bow with several 6" discus.....the neons feel comfortable, not threatened and the tank is long enough that they know where the others are...so they don't feel the need to school? The rummynoses though are totally different. I know they're not intimidated by the discus in the least, but they sure love to "follow the leader"!

[jmhart]

So Jeffrey what you're saying in my case for example, I have a 72G bow with several 6" discus.....the neons feel comfortable, not threatened and the tank is long enough that they know where the others are...so they don't feel the need to school? The rummynoses though are totally different. I know they're not intimidated by the discus in the least, but they sure love to "follow the leader"!

I will say in a 72G I'm surprised you aren't seeing schooling with the neons. Usually they only get "too comfortable" in smaller tanks, 30g or less. 72 is a pretty big tank. I'm not experienced with discus, are they territorial at all? Perhaps a gourami or two(3--two females and male) might increase the "threat level" of the tank to encourage schooling in your neons. Gourami's, while not "aggressive", do tend to be territorial, so they would only give the appearance of being a threat.

In general, the smaller the tank, the less schooling you see. Good schooling also requires high numbers of fish. 10 neons would be the minimum, not 6, to see schooling. 10+ would be hard to do in smaller tanks, but in your 72, depending on what else is in there, it shouldn't be a problem. This is also why it's hard to have more than one school in tanks less than 55g. The number of fish required to create schooling tends to start to push bioload capcity.

I've never had rummynoses, but from what I've read, they do tend to school pretty comfortably.

[lili70]

My neons are all over the place but the feeding time. Then they school. Also, whenever I clean the tank they get together.

[pinkertd]

Jeffrey the Discus are not the least bit territorial ever. And there's no competition at feeding time, everyone peacefully eats alongside their tankmates. They are gentle giants so I'm sure there's a big comfort level in the tank. I think now that I've seen how nice the rummies school and interact, I will not do any other type of tetras in there anymore. Thanks for the info.

[Thehappypet]

@tjg2007
"Right now the 6 neons are in with 5 guppies, 5 painted platies, and 2 goldfish (I know they are coldwater in with the more tropical types but they like it)."

Well goldfish need cold water because cold water holds a much higher level of dissolved oxygen then warm water does. So even if your goldfish kept in warm water seem to you, in your subjective opinion, to be "happy", objectively their bodies are working much harder to get the same amount of oxygen as those kept in cold water. That is just a fact.

If you want your goldfish to live long, healthy lives don't keep them in tropical tanks.

[jmhart]

@tjg2007
"Right now the 6 neons are in with 5 guppies, 5 painted platies, and 2 goldfish (I know they are coldwater in with the more tropical types but they like it)."

Well goldfish need cold water because cold water holds a much higher level of dissolved oxygen then warm water does. So even if your goldfish kept in warm water seem to you, in your subjective opinion, to be "happy", objectively their bodies are working much harder to get the same amount of oxygen as those kept in cold water. That is just a fact.

If you want your goldfish to live long, healthy lives don't keep them in tropical tanks.


Given that this is the "Freshwater Newbie" forum, ease up on the turbo. The "subjective opinion" line is a little too sarcastic to be constructive.

[Thehappypet]

Given that this is the "Freshwater Newbie" forum, ease up on the turbo. The "subjective opinion" line is a little too sarcastic to be constructive.


I know, I overreacted... I went back to edit it out but it wont let me D:
Someone I know is keeping a blood parrot cichlid, a koi, a pleco, and a comet goldfish together all in a heated tank... >_> If thats not a random assortment of fish that shouldnt be kept together <(((><
:worthy:
sorry

[jmhart]

It's cool. I too hold people in other forums to a higher standard, but I try to remember to let the mistakes go in this one.

[nchoe123]

i have 20 neons which school fairly well. however after the most recent tank cleaning, i rearranged some driftwood and stuff slightly, and i think they're fighting over territory. when they're settled in again i expect to see their regular behaviour.

my glofish (zebra danios) were huddled together worriedly when first introduced, but these days they mostly just chase each other around. i had 12 and then moved half to my other tank... i think i'd rather have them back in their original tank but i don't want to stress them out by having to catch them all over again and move them again!

[rcervel]

At my LFS they have a 75gal with about 40-50 Cardinal Tetras alone in the tank; they shoal beautifully, I would think in a tank that large by themselves they would loosen up a little. Maybe because they're in a high traffic area where everyone walks by they school tightly.

I want to get Cardinal Tetras once my Neons die off(I know that sounds harsh, but I'd rather keep only one species), but when they school it's so beautiful.

I just added 4 more Neon Tetras to my tank today, to total 10, right now they're playing follow the leader, but once they settle in they'll probably go back to dispersing everywhere.

[jmhart]

At my LFS they have a 75gal with about 40-50 Cardinal Tetras alone in the tank; they shoal beautifully, I would think in a tank that large by themselves they would loosen up a little. Maybe because they're in a high traffic area where everyone walks by they school tightly.

I want to get Cardinal Tetras once my Neons die off(I know that sounds harsh, but I'd rather keep only one species), but when they school it's so beautiful.

I just added 4 more Neon Tetras to my tank today, to total 10, right now they're playing follow the leader, but once they settle in they'll probably go back to dispersing everywhere.


In a tank that big, it's almost a necessity for the cardinals to school. It's so wide they can't see what's happening at every end of the tank. In larger tanks, they will school more frequently than in smaller tanks. This is a rule that will always apply.