help on natural system (Berlin)

[liquafaction]

I am hoping to have a few questions answered about setting up a natural reef aquarium. Just so that I am clear on natural, one that uses live rock as a filtering system. I have read a few books, and have done quite a bit of research on filters. Apparently (by all means correct me if I am wrong) the only filter that I will need is one to clear the water ( ie. mechanical). I have a 3 stage filtering sytem that came with my aquarium that I bought. The filter has a protien skimmer, bio balls, and a sponge at the end. From what I understand the bio balls basically grow algae to filter water, and I will not need this because I am using live rock. If this is correct, can I use this 3 stage filter system, and just remove the bioballs from the system?

[DeltaUguy]

Definately remove the bio-balls, the end up harboring nitrate. Its the same with bio-wheels, even the sponge will harbor the nitrate. I would think about 86in' that one too.

[liquafaction]

My problem is that I can not find a new mechanical filter that I can put under the aquaruim, and utalize the sump. All the mechanical filters I have found hang on the side of the aquarium. I have ran accross a few filters that contain the little ciramic rings, and the pet store said to pull them out. Any suggestions on a filtering system for a Birlin system, and a 100 gallon tank would be appreciated.

thanks in advance

[mogurnda]

I agree that you should nix the bioballs, but keep the sponge. Clean it regularly (minimum weekly) to keep it from becoming a biological filter. Many people, including me, run a system with a skimmer only. With your system, I would think that the sponge will get rid of a lot of the debris, but not catch pods and plankton.

[liquafaction]

Really, thats interesting. how many pounds of live rock did you use per gallon of water? I also was going to use a seperate skimmer, other than the one that is "built in" to the 3 stage filter. The books I have read say you can never overskim. Do you guys think this would work out?

I was going to buy cured live rock. Will it be safe to use cured live rock in a new system as long as the ph levels, and salinaty are right, or should I buy unseeded rock, and start from scratch? Also will I loose my algae growth without having fish, or inverts in my tank for a while?

[DeltaUguy]

If I were you I would have at least 1 pound of LR per gallon of water, if not 1.5 or 2.

I'm not sure about the skimmer question, but cured LR would be fine in your system, as long as the tank has been cycled. If you add the cured LR before the cycle, you could lose alot of life on the rock. If your tank hasn't been cycled yet then I would suggest buying uncured LR and letting the die off from that cycle your tank for you.

Why do you need a mechanical filter in the sump? All I have in my sump is the heater, return pump, and skimmer (which is on its way via UPS as we speak). Occasionally I attach a micron bag on my drain pipe to filter out debris, but that is not very often.

[liquafaction]

DeltaUguy,

I may ramble on about a few things, so forgive me if I do so in this post. I will try to keep it short though.

Its not that I wanted a filter in my sump, its that the only non bio filter that I can find hangs on the side of the tank. I did not want anything hanging on the side of the tank. I just wanted to utalize the 3 stage filter system if I could, use it without the bio balls. The pet store (of course) was trying to sell me the same type of filter that uses the ceramic rings (still a 3 stage filter), and they were telling me not to use the rings. On the same hand, the pet store was telling me that I could not use my existing filter system, saying that if I took out the bio balls, that I would be defeating my purpose. Sounds like someone gets paid comission to me..........lol.

My next problem will remain in this (I grew up in a plant nuresery, so maybe I am thinking too hard, so correct me if I am wrong) The algae growth on live rock produces oxygen right? Plants need carbon dioxide to live. If I just have live rock in an aquarium with no fish or invertabrates, then there will be no carbon dioxide for the algae......... I would say that it is safe to assume the algae would die? My main question is I guess how long can you have live rock before you have to get fish?, or should I even be concerned with that.

Finially I heard through a friend that his brother uses sea salt from the grocery store insted of buying processed salt from the pet store.......... anyone ever heard of this?

thanks again for yall's help so far, sorry if I ask to many questions.

[mogurnda]

liquafaction,
I have only brought one reef tank through a cycle, so I'm not an expert. Others may have more useful input.

First, I use 2 lbs/gallon aquacultured live rock. It's dense, so you can use less if you go with Pacific live rock like Fiji, Tonga etc.

Second, I wouldn't worry about CO2 for your live rock. You *are* thinking too hard. The value of the rock is not the algae but the bacteria inside the rock, which is why more porous is better. Plus, algae don't die when starved, and not all algae are beneficial. You want coralline to grow, but not hair algae or diatoms, which can overrun your corals and be generally bad. Which is why people cycle their rock in the dark. You want your nitrogenous compounds to be low or even undetectable before you illuminate your rock. When the lights come back on, the coralline will spread and be happy, and nutrients will, hopefully, be too low for the nuisance algae.

Even if you buy cured rock, there will be die off when it hits the tank, so lay down your sand bed, put your rock in, get it cycled and have the tank stable, then add fish. The live rock is for the fish, not vice-versa. Since you're starting afresh, you have the option of getting uncured live rock and curing it in the tank. In the end, it will be cured, and the tank will be cycled. My favorite, though, is the aquacultured stuff from Tampa Bay Saltwater. Even after a year, there is so much more stuff on it than the Pacific rock.

Absolutely, under no circumstances use grocery store salt. Making marine salt mixes is not as simple as evaporating sea water. Stuff precipitates out. Get a good quality mix, like Instant Ocean.

Because I am supposed to be working right now, this is an incomplete and not well thought out message. As always, I *strongly* encourage you to read Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist and Tullock's Natural Reef Aquarium. The answers to most of your questions are there.

[liquafaction]

I was doing a little more reading this evening, and of course..... more questions.

First off, reading in here, alot of people are using sand as a base. From what I hae read in my book, do not use any base unless you use a plenum filter (with a natural system). They say the sand increases nitrate levels.

Second, you guys are saying to cycle my system before introducing "cured" live rock, but to not use bio balls, or biological media. Should I use biological media to cycle my sytem, and then do away with this media once I introduce live rock?, which I was planing to use 1.5 lbs. per gallon. My book says that using live rock will hurry a tank cycle, but why would you use live rock to cycle a tank, if you are going to harm it when cycling?

[DeltaUguy]

A deep sand base (DSB) of 4 to 6 inches will harbor denutrifying bacteria and will LOWER your nitrate levels. It does this without a plenum. I don't have any experience with a plenum so maybe someone else can address this topic.

There are 4 ways to cycle a tank:
1) use damsel fish (not recommended)
2) throw in 2 or 3 (or 4) jumbo cocktail shrimp
3) dose with pure ammonia (which is what I do)
4) use uncured LR

The die off from the LR will cycle the tank. When you use uncured LR, some things are going to die from the cycle. There is no way to get around that. Not everything will die, just the organisms that were almost there when you got the rock and the not so hardy ones. The death of these organisms is what cycles the tank. Uncured LR is also less expensive than cured LR.

[mogurnda]

One problem with books is that they quickly get out of date. Among others, Tullock's book discusses the issue of plenums and deep sand beds. Which book are you using? There is a lot of debate now regarding whether plenums are necessary, or even desirable.

[DeltaUguy]

Exactly. Even Fenner's book is out of date in some places, and its one of the best out there...

[liquafaction]

I will get back to you on what book I am using, I am at work now, and cannot remember the name or aurhor of it.

I guess then it would be safe (or is it even necessary) to use my filter as a biological filter to cycle, then do away with the biological media when I get enough live rock to take over. Uncured liverock in my town is $9.99 a pound, and it sucks, so I am going to have to find some to order. I noticed a lot of guys on Ebay sell it, but I am sceptical. Any good ideas on finding live rock?

[mogurnda]

I like Tampa Bay, and have heard good things about Dr Mac and Sons, East Coast Clams and Premium Aquatics. 9.99/lb is way too much to pay for bad rock.

As far as your bioballs, if it's not already colonized by bacteria, it probably won't do much to ease the pain of cycling.

[liquafaction]

The book I have been reading is

The Complete Book of the Marine Aquarium

by: Vincent B. Hargreaves.

Ok on the bio. I have not even started cycling yet, now I you guys have me questioning this book on cycleing.....lol.

My fear is that I am going to spend a lot of dough for nothing, I think that is genetic for me...lol

[DeltaUguy]

$9.99/Lb is too much for bad or good rock!!

Look also at Gulf View Rock (http://www.gulf-view.com)

[BrianH]

I second the suggestion for gulf-view. Dale the owner is a great guy and it is hard to beat his 33 lbs. of coraline rock delivered next day air to your door for $133.00.

Brian