White Patch on Blue Tang

[sosgal721]

My blue hippo tang has this white patch between it's eyes, almost looks as if the color is faded. It's acting normal/eating fine, as are the rest of the fish.... water parameters are fine(Ammonia:0,Nitrite:0,Nitrate:20), no reason for it to be stressed, and it's not ich... any ideas of what it might be? Thanks in advance!

[Reefscape]

How long has this been forming? Any medications been added to the tank?

[sosgal721]

It just showed up today, no medications.

[joander123]

looks like a start to HITH to me....

Your sure its eating ok and getting mainly greens?

[sosgal721]

Yep, it goes nuts for the formula one pellets I put in, along with mysis shrimp, and I see it eat the algae off the rocks all the time.

[joander123]

Ok, unfortunately neither one of those 2 products has enough green matter for the fish alone. It may be getting some from the rocks but keep in mind that these fish are herbivores, mysis shrimp is not a natural part of there diet, and if fed primarily with mysis and formula one this fish is very susceptible to disease like it appears to have picked up.

I have a yellow tang, and yes he does occasionally eat mysis and flakes and pellets (etc.) but he also has 2 clips full of dried seaweed per day that hang on the tank full of nori (dried seaweed) for him to graze on as well as algae off of rocks and powerheads and what not.

The problem may simply be that the fish is not getting enough greens.

Hope this helps,
Jay

[sosgal721]

I have not been able to get it to eat off of the clip, not even touch it... I even made a post about it a while back: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127260
Ive tried many things,even taking it off the clip... but it won't touch it.
Are you completely positive it is HITH though?

[Grins]

I'm not positive it is HLLE but the fish is being set up to get it with the diet. It is most commonly believed to be caused by a nutritional defect and in the case of a tang that would be not getting herbivore foods. My tang eats like a pig when meaty foods are served but at least 80% of his diet is made up of marine greens. If you can't get yours to eat nori from the clip...and mine took at least a week to get used to it...then Formula II would be appropriate versus Forumal I.

Let us know if the spot changes but in the meantime, I'd change his diet.

[sosgal721]

Okay, thanks! I am now feeding him formula II, or at least doing my best, he gets scared and hides every time I get near the tank. How did you get him to eat the nori? Did you just put it in until he ate it?

[Reefscape]

I would put this down to stressfull conditions or maybe diet, would not say its HLLE as the dorsal fin looks in fine order and i would also expect to see the skin effected slightly different too..

The attached picture is of how a regal tang looks at the very early stages of HLLE..See the difference in the skin complexion...

Niko

[Grins]

How did you get him to eat the nori? Did you just put it in until he ate it?

Yes, just kept putting it in and he finally started to eat it. He eats a ton of it now and I'm sure to keep it in the tank to be sure he has filled up on it before he starts to chase around any meaty foods the tank gets.

[vorlx]

My tangs will eat from the clip and I supplement it by feeding formula II every other day. I have to restock my clip quite often due to every thing in my tank thinking that it is desert. First my urchin chowed down on it, then one of my turbo snails found it and munched on it all night.

[joander123]

My tang pretty much took it from the getgo, but it doesnt have to be clipped. It can be rubber banded down to a rock as well which is what a lot of people do. As grins said formula 2 is also a good alternative.

Niko- HITH (HLLE) was the only thing that came to mind to me when i see white spots on the head of the tang, i understand that the finnage looks ok, but what else would cause the white color? Surely it must be some health issue correct?

[Amphiprion]

HLLE wouldn't show up overnight like that. It isn't uncommon for these fish to suddenly have odd color changes in a given spot. My old one would occasionally have a white spot the size of a dime on on side of its body--it would literally disappear anywhere from a few hours later to the next day. In your case, it could have scuffed up the scales in the vicinity (highly probable given this species' behavior). From the picture, it doesn't look like any sort of infection, either--so for now, I would just observe it and stay calm. I don't think it will be any real issue.

BTW, this species really isn't that dependent upon algae and greens. Giving them too much may not help, actually. They are largely planktivores in the wild and would benefit from good, meaty, proteinaceous fare, like mysids in the aquarium. However, algae and green matter should still be provided--it just shouldn't take precedence as it does in other species.

[joander123]

tht is true, the paracanthurus is actually a zooplanktivore in the wild, but it is not as easy to provide natural foods of this type for a larger fish in a home aquarium. But i do believe that like other fish in its family, it should be fed primarily greens, as well as some occasional meaty portions....correct?

Edit: At least i believe it is zooplantivore correct? Sorry for repeating what amphiron just said, i didnt read his hole post before i posted =/.

[Amphiprion]

Yes, a zooplanktivore specifically, which is why foods like mysids, cyclops, daphnia, etc. make good substitues.

[Reefscape]

Niko- HITH (HLLE) was the only thing that came to mind to me when i see white spots on the head of the tang, i understand that the finnage looks ok, but what else would cause the white color? Surely it must be some health issue correct?

It does happen a lot in my experience aswell with patches just showing, and it does not have to point to a health issue, its in the nature of this fish, and they can go patchy simply by being stressed.

[Grins]

How is the color today?

[sosgal721]

The color yesterday on the nose was a lot better, more faded, but it had two more spots on one of it's sides. The spots on it's side might have come from stress because the night before I was scrubbing and cleaning the aquarium in my constant fight to get rid if cyano bacteria, and I accidentally bumped it's rock that it likes to hide under.
Now today the spot on the nose is basically gone, and the spots on its side are faded. I have seen it pick on the nori that I put in there though (yay!).
But who knows if it was because I fed it more greens or if it just became less unstressed, when I initially saw the spot I thought that it had something to do with it liking to squeeze in sideways between two rocks, in which he barely fits.

[Amphiprion]

It could have been either one. "Scuffs" usually disappear in a day or so, as do the little discolorations. They can develop those little strange spots as easily as walking up to the tank too quickly and spooking them. They can also, as I said before, easily scrape themselves--usually without any problem

[joander123]

Glad to hear it =).

[sosgal721]

So, it's happening again, except this time it's a lot worse, and getting worse... and it doesn't look like he is scratched up or anything, I just hope it isn't HILLE or anything else of the sort (which is why I am posting the pictures)...

[Grins]

From what I read about it when you asked the first time I had to agree with Niko and Amp that it was most likely stress related. Is there any chance that damsel has been stressing it out?

[Reefscape]

Did the colours go back to how they should be before this happening again? and its certainly worst than before, again, i dont think its HLLE as there still does not seem to be any receding of the fish's body or fins..

Niko

[sosgal721]

If anyone should be upset it should be the damsel, I have seen the tang chase it around every once in a while (not all the time though). For the most part the damsel minds it's own business. The tang doesn't seem to be able to fit in it's normal hiding spot anymore, so it has found a new one.. I suppose it could be stressed out from that.
And yes, the colors went back to normal before it started happening again. It looks even worse today =(

[Reefscape]

Something has to be stressing it out badly for the ammount of white that is now apparent, and after reviewing your stocking, the damsel does stand out to me to be the contender as they others are peacfull fish.

Just an observation

Niko

[Catpicklesdog]

It sounds like a stress issue to me. If not the damsel (which is my first bet) then maybe your skunks are tying to clean it and your tang doesn't appreciate it. Here's a link to WWM if you scroll down to near the bottom it sounds like a few cases similar to yours. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/paracdisfaq4.htm

[sosgal721]

My damsel is surprisingly the nicest and calmest fish out of all of them...even though there is no apparent aggression from damsel to tang, but there is obvious aggression from tang to damsel, do you guys think that the tang is this stressed out because of the damsel's presence, even though the tank (with the damsel) has been set up for a few months now?
@ catpicklesdog : My tang sits and waits near where the skunks hang out and almost urges the skunks to clean it.Thanks for the link btw.
If the damsel is the problem, then I can move it, I currently have a 5.5G, but I think that it needs more room to swim (don't you guys think?)... I have a 10G, but have fish QTing in it right now, so that will just have to wait.

[Grins]

Try writing the guys at WWM and sending them the photo, let them know it was there before and went away and now is worse. Tell them the tank specs, stocking, and all water parameters with specific numbers. I do think it is stress related but better to get another seasoned opinion I'd think. Oh and please keep us updated.

[stashmoney82]

tangs iv had get spooked easily. especially hippos in my experiences. looks to my me like a stress issue. there color or spots come and go frequently. imo hippos are the most sensitive. so if it comes and goes i personally wouldnt worry, just try to give them a healthy diet and keep stress low.

[Catpicklesdog]

Try writing the guys at WWM and sending them the photo, let them know it was there before and went away and now is worse. Tell them the tank specs, stocking, and all water parameters with specific numbers. I do think it is stress related but better to get another seasoned opinion I'd think. Oh and please keep us updated.

I'd second that. I've emailed them in the past and got a reply within 24 hrs from Bob Fenner. They're extremely helpful.

[sosgal721]

Ok so I have emailed them and catpicklesdog is right, they got back to me within about a day, which is awesome.

Here is what he said:
He believed that the patches were caused by stress, which could come from a number of things, a borderline Nitrate level,the damsel, possibly my brittle sea star: it the species was Ophiarachna in particular, this animal could be over-stressing the Paracanthurus(my tang) by night... I am having a hard time figuring out what specific species my brittle sea star is..
... however he didn't think it was caused by his diet not having enough greens. I have done water changes to bring the Nitrate down (it has always been at this level, since I set up the tank), but it doesn't seem to do much.. which I think is because the tank is not 'well developed' quite yet, and I have a deep sand bed. I plan on doing an oxygen (because I recently removed my protein skimmer because it wasn't doing crap) and a Nitrate test later and possibly a water change.
He provided me with a good link to more info on the tang: http://wetwebmedia.com/paracant.htmHe also mentioned that the tang needed more room to swim than a 55G, which I know is true and plan to upgrade later. However I think the main problem might be my damsel, if that is the case then I can move the damsel out.
An update on the condition of the tang: the spots have definitely cleared up a lot...almost gone, but who knows if they will come back again.

[Catpicklesdog]

I'm glad you managed to get an answer. Good luck trying to catch the damsel:devil:

Hope your Tang continues making a good recovery.

[sosgal721]

So, okay now my tang has different symptoms... it is breathing really hard, very lethargic ...and it won't eat, it's hiding more than normal. No other fish seem to be like this, water parameters are fine (checked salinty,oxygen,and PH as well). My only thoughts are either something contaminated the water (I do use RO), velvet or ich. I recently added a few more fish in there but have QT'd them, so I am not sure where the velvet or ich could come from.
So.. my question is, should I QT it? This tang seems to be very very sensitive so I don't want the stress of moving it into a different environment/catching it, to kill it.
Any advice?

[sosgal721]

never mind, it died :sad:

[Grins]

Oh no! I am so very sorry. Were you able to see anything unusual when you removed it?

[sosgal721]

:sad:I miss it already.Nope didn't notice anything. Before it died, it was swimming strangely, swim bladder issue I am assuming... I also think it lost it's sight. This is so strange, it was fine yesterday. Now maybe I am just paranoid, but it looks like my royal gramma is starting to breathe a little harder than it should. Regardless, something has to be going on with my tank.

[Grins]

And you said your ammonia was at 0? how much flow do you have in there?

[gomrjoe]

To be on the safe side I would perform a water change ASAP, at least 20% minimum, if not more... if you can do 40% or 50% do that. Whatever is going on a WC can't hurt, and will probably help.

You might want to consider changing water sources for this water change, just a thought.

[sosgal721]

And you said your ammonia was at 0? how much flow do you have in there?
Yeah the ammonia was at 0....there are 2 400gph (koralia's).

The fish seem to be fine now, not breathing hard or anything.So now I think the conclusion is that there was something in the water, because immediately when I noticed that the tang was sick, I put carbon in the filter...and now the fish are fine.

As far as water sources go, I have an RO/DI unit. Lately the water (only the water that comes out of the holding tank) has been smelling like sulfur. However if I took a cup of that water and let it sit, the smell would go away. The RO/DI unit has done 300 gallons so far, so it is not to the point where we have to replace the filters. I think what I have to do is buy a TDS meter, any good recommendations?

[Grins]

I'd not use any of the water that smelled like sulfur. What kind of holding tank is it?

[gomrjoe]

Sulfur smell? Almost sounds like something bloomed and then died in there? Have you tested the water at all, like a baseline test or something? I too agree that you shouldn't use that water. Strange.

[sosgal721]

I'd not use any of the water that smelled like sulfur. What kind of holding tank is it?

It is the pressurized tank that goes with the RO/DI unit. The water only smells right after coming out of the tank. If it goes through the unit but not the tank it doesn't smell or if it sits for a day inside a plastic water jug (not air tight) it doesn't smell. I tested the water coming out of the tank and it is ammonia 0, nitrite 0. For reference my tap water is also 0/0/0.

[sosgal721]

bump. Any good recommendations for a TDS meter? I have the RO/DI unit from filter direct (http://filterdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=29). And I would prefer to not get one that is inline. Should I just go with the one filter direct has?

[Grins]

I'd probably get the one that is made to go with your system as it's price looks good. However, AWI often includes a TDS meter with their units (such as Typhoon III) and they sell different kinds as well: http://www.airwaterice.com/c=kdiXAk5CnGNQYLcVZw3cT3ZlW/category/10/

[saltydunc]

sorry you lost the fish...