Can you OVER filter?

[andi872]

I have a 55 gal tank, and started with a hang on pump system and now have 2 on the tank (one at each end)both for 45-60 gal tanks, I also have the tray part for a undergravel system, and have read contradictory info on these. Should I get the tubing and pump to activate this or not? I'm still in the middle of my cycling process, i was given an abundance of guppys.

Thank you to any advice

[southpaw]

You can never overfilter a tank.....

But you can cause too much water current using multiple filters ..... if too much current is in the tank alot of fish will ignore the high current areas and bunch up in places where current is less.

[andi872]

for some reason the gupys like to play in both the bubbles and the curent areas of the tank.

[southpaw]

Some fish are fine with the current..... I was just letting you know so you could look into what fish like it and what dont when you start fully stocking.

[andi872]

thank you

should I do the undergravel filter?

[Star_Rider]

if you have not installed the plates for the UGF then you can hold off on that.
if they are in place either get them up and running or remove them.

if you run powerheads on ugfs they tend to be more efficient at keeping the 'mulm'/detritus from building up under the plates.
you can also set them up for rfug(reverse flow) which pushes water up thru the plates rather than draw the water thru the plates.

[andi872]

the plates are already there which method would you do?

i just need to get tubes and a form of force for it, I'm open for any thing that will help my tank be a better enviroment, and I do have live plants too (if that helps choose a better method)

again Thanks

[ansbfish]

if you have plants I'm pretty sure you don't want an UGF running as you will need to gravel vac, and it will disturb the plants every time you do it.
I'd just yank it out myself.

[Sploke]

You have to gravel vac anyway...what difference would the plates make?

[Nolapete]

You can never over filter, but you can have too much current for a particular fish.

[andi872]

i vac the grave 2 times a week atm while cycling, wensdays i do a 10% water change, saturdays I do a 25% water change, so as to make the cycling less stress on the fish

[ansbfish]

You have to gravel vac anyway...what difference would the plates make?
Actually, you don't. Especially not with plants.

When you don't have an UGF you are not supposed to gravel vac the entire substrate as you are when you have a UGF. You should only use the siphon to lift detritus off the surface of the gravel.

I'd recommend anyone who uses a gravel vacuum read this:
The Silent Killer (http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/silent_killer.htm)

[Sploke]

About half my tanks are planted and the rest are not...I do deep gravel vacs on all of them. There is something to be said about properly setting up a plenum for denitrification benefits, but simply going around telling people to not vacuum their tanks is not it. I've had tanks running for several years, doing weekly gravel vacs down to the glass, with gravel and sand, and have yet to see this "silent killer" phenomenon. The only say I see that happening is neglecting a sand substrate for several months and then stirring it up. With regular maintenance this is not a concern.

[andi872]

now here is a new question is sand or gravel better and if sand; what kind would you buy for a fresh water tank, all i see at pesmart is for salt water tanks

[Sploke]

Its pretty much personal preference. I have used pool filter sand and play sand in tanks; the pool sand is much cleaner. The play sand is finer much very dusty so requires a lot of rinsing before putting it in the tank. You cna also get CaribSea tahitian moon sand, which is a fine black sand. My LFS also sells white sugar sand that can be used in either sw or fw. The advantage to pool sand or play sand is that its like 8 bucks for a 50lb bag, way cheaper than anything you'll get at the LFS.

[andi872]

thank you

the more i learn the more questions i have lol

[Sploke]

haha yeah join the club...and i've been at it for a while...it doesn't change. which is a good thing.

[nchoe123]

i have two sandy bottom tanks now; first one was play sand-- $3.75 for a 50 pound bag from lowes. rinsed it a dozen times and it was clean but still silty when i added water; however running the filter for a day cleared it up pretty quick-- note that it wasn't DIRT in the water, just the too-tiny-to-settle bits.

the second tank actually was already a gravel-bottom tank, but i thought it looked ugly with the different colors of gravel and beach glass bits, so i scooped it out, and carefully added sand-- this time pool filter sand, about $9 for 50 pounds. much less hazy than the play sand, and I got it from a pool supply place near my house. it's whiter sand, and a bit coarser, and i think it's much better than the play sand.

next time i'd remove the fish first though-- but they didn't seem to mind it looking blizzardy for a bit. probably very exciting for them, but it didn't stress them out excessively. the next day they were fine. i think they enjoy being able to root around in the sand a bit too.

[andi872]

thank you for the info

[ct-death]

Breeders often perform 100% water replacement every 1-2 hours, but that's a whole different level of fish keeping form us 'common folk' ;)

As others have said, you cannot over filter or cycle you water, but you can cause too much water flow (current).

[wataugachicken]

that "silent killer" article is terrible misinformation.


a gravel vacuum can cause detrimental affects that include removing beneficial organisms, disruption of the ecological balance of the bed, spikes in the ammonia and nitrite, and death of your fish a few days after the cleaning.

the beneficial bacteria which reside in the aquarium are too firmly attached to surfaces to be removed though the relatively mild suction of a gravel vac. while i will agree that using a gravel vac does of course rearrange the gravel so that the top layer is mixed throughout, this doesn't immediately cause the death of the bacterial population. while some may become trapped and die, most of them will slowly migrate back to the oxygen rich top layer. not enough of them will be so drastically lost as to cause dangerous ammonia and nitrite spikes - plus, you just cleaned your gravel really well and removed a large amount of debris which otherwise WOULD have contributed to rising ammonia and nitrite levels. in addition, most people do not clean the entire substrate every time they do a water change. they do 1/4 or 1/2, however much of it they can fit into the length of time it takes to remove the amount of water they planned on changing. not only that, but bacteria live all over the tank - on decorations, plants, glass, and of course - in the filters. MOSTLY in the filters because they have the most concentrated areas of food and oxygen, plus surfaces like biowheels and other media made specifically for bacterial colonization. if you clean the tank and your fish die, you have a bigger issue going on.


Sand has many advantages over gravel in both fresh and salt water systems. First it helps keep the detritus on top of the bed so power filters can pull it out of your aquarium allowing it to be removed from the system when you clean your filter.

This is coming from Mr. I Never Actually Clean My Sand So I Don't Know What's Lurking In There. Sand can build up just as much crap and filth as gravel if it is not maintained. Has this guy ever taken a scoop of sand from his tanks and swirled it around in a bucket? That water is going to be Brown. With a capital B. I've changed a couple of my own tanks from sand to barebottom, and the removal of the sand was the nastiest thing ever - after perfect parameters and crystal clear water. At least with gravel, even though it traps a lot of debris, it is feasible to remove it. For every piece of poop that lands on top of your sand, another one melts into liquid and sinks in. In one of my tanks I am lucky enough to use a heavier-grade sand that allows me to actually use the Python on it without removing it. I clean the sand 50-75% with every water change - and you would be amazed at the little brown cloud that rises up every time the gravel vac gets stuck in there, at each and every spot.


The top layer of the bed which is in contact with oxygen rich water is heavily colonized by the nitrifying bacteria from the Nitrosopira and Nitrospira genus. These bacteria are the ones responsible for converting the ammonia and nitrite in the aquarium to the many times less toxic Nitrate. Without a sufficient number of these good bacteria in your aquarium the ammonia and nitrite would shoot up to a toxic level killing your fish.

The top layer of substrate is the lovely bacterial suburb of Podunk, Pennsylvania. Your filters are microbiology's answer to New York City.


The bottom layer has a special kind of bacteria called anaerobic bacteria. Anaerobic bacteria lives in environments where there is no oxygen available. In the aquarium anaerobic bacteria use the oxygen atom from the nitrate molecule, there by converting the nitrate into nitrogen gas (which will bubble out of the tank.)

These fantastic anaerobic bacteria can also produce hydrogen sulfite gas. This does not "bubble out" of the tank as innocuously as nitrogen gas, and if a large bubble is broken and releases into your tank, there's a good chance it could kill all of your fish. Toxic. Gas. This is why *most* resources recommend a sand bed no deeper than one inch, and regular stirring of the sand to prevent gas buildup. It can become dangerous when left alone. Even with my weekly water changes I still get small gas bubbles caught in the Python.


In freshwater, there are snails (Malaysian Livebearing Snail), fish like cory cats and loaches, worms (California Black Worms/Tubifex worms), and other bugs. The snails are quite good at keeping the sand stirred up and free of large gas bubbles. However, a cory cat that uncovers a pocket of the hydrogen gas is going to drop like a rock.

[artdale]

Overfiltering, by itself, shouldn't be something to care of (excepted for the water flow, as others said).
If you overfilter because of overstocking is different...
Overfiltering is a solution for overstocking? You will have a lot of guppies, I understood, so it's certainly wise to overfilter in order to balance the filter with the surplus of organic matter produced by fishes.
This is obviously a solution, may be a good solution, probably not an "easy" solution.
Overfiltering you will have several consequences. I'm going to tell you what I (suppose I) know. I'm sure it is not complete (and I hope is correct).
First, you will see your oxigen levels decrease. Nitrification requires oxigen, and you have proportionally less water to extract oxigen from.
Second, you acidity will increase. Nitrification produces nitric acid too.
Third, nitrates, phosphates and, in general, many products of organic matter decomposition will grow.
If your aquarium is heavily overstocked and overfiltered may be you will see your fishes go to the surface to breathe, your kh ad ph go down and your nitrates and phosphates go up.

You have to compesate at least these effects so, if you overfilter, better oxigenate water (more plants, maybe an oxigenator), keep a good kh (6-7 or above) in order to avoid ph collapse and make frequent water changes. An heavily planted acquarium may be really useful also in absorbing nitrates and phosphates but frequent water changes are required anyway.
Be careful: A low ph affects the bacteria efficiency in breaking ammonia. A too low ph in an overcrowded aquarium may be really dangerous as ammonia levels may increase very quickly.

Ok, thats is what I know (due to the overcrowding of my own aquarium) and I hope is correct.

[Sploke]

Well put watauga.

[Aislinn]

"...use a heavier-grade sand...use the Python on it without removing it."

That's what I do, as well, but I have Tahitian Moon in one tank and I even vac that stuff. If you're careful, you can get sand a bit up into the siphon tube, just enough for it to swirl around, and then lift the tube a little and the sand will drop back down but the muck will get sucked up.

The only tanks I have gravel in are the two at work (one in the lobby and a wee 5g in my office) but I vac all my tanks to the glass. I don't keep the beds very deep, though. Usually an inch or a little less. The mbuna tank has a deeper bed (about 2") but they move it all around constantly, so nothing ever settles in it.

[iamgroovy]

That's what I do, as well, but I have Tahitian Moon in one tank and I even vac that stuff.

Do you have any bottom feeders in the tank with the Tahitian Moon sand? I was advised against using it with bottom feeders because it is rather sharp and abrasive. I love the way it looks though!

[Aislinn]

Do you have any bottom feeders in the tank with the Tahitian Moon sand? I was advised against using it with bottom feeders because it is rather sharp and abrasive. I love the way it looks though!

No, there are no bottom dwellers in that tank, and yes, I am aware that it's not safe for them. My sand tanks with bottom dwellers have much lighter coloured sand (Torpedo Beach, also made by Carib-Sea, which has nice round grains). It's just about impossible to find dark, smooth, round, heavy-grained sand that's pH neutral (I have really hard source water so I can't use sand that will buffer the pH). Recently, in another thread someone suggested 3M Colour Quartz. I have one last QT tank at home that still has regular gravel, and I was going to switch it to Carib-Sea's Peace River (which is also gravel, but with very small sizes of 1-2mm), but am now also considering the 3M Colour Quartz as a possible option.