Dynamic tank stand ideas needed.

[kcress]

I have remodeled my entire living room so I can change aquariums. I have yanked the entire fireplace out leaving a wood chase, and drywalled the space. It's 26" deep by exactly 6ft wide, (dang). The floor of the chase space is masonry and can support about 5 tons.

The tank will be 68" wide, 24" deep, and 36" tall.

This means it will weight about 2,500 lbs.

Because there is a 14" header spanning the old fireplace a 36" tall tank would provide a mere 11" of access which can only be from the top, since there are walls, (the chase), on the back and sides.

More room a must. If the tank was one foot lower I'd have about 23" of top access which would be fine. However this causes a major aesthetics hit.

So! I want the tank to raise and lower 12". Has anyone tried this? If so what did you use? Ball actuators? Hydraulics?

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks.

[Grins]

Not me, and the thought of lighting a 3' tall tank has me thinking of the shock of seeing the power bill each month, let alone cleaning the thing.

[snailrider]

You could use threaded rod system with gears and chain connecting 4 screws. You can't use the typical threaded rod, but some hardware does sell the stout stuff like in a "C" clamp.

Then a small motor can run the chain.

You would most likely need a nice steel framework for it all to reside on. Stainless would be best.

If you have room in the header area, you could just use any form of cable winch system and lift from above. Syncronizing all corners is a bit toughter with a cable system.

[Reefscape]

Personaly, its not something i would attempt...I would leave it to a professional company to design if that it your chosen route to a stand..

Niko

[Eupterus]

I would take this to MFK if you haven't already. More people are obviously doing bigger tanks there.

[Sploke]

Look on craigslist and see if you can find a car lift? The problem with using hydraulics will be that the piston has to recede someplace, i.e. a hole in the floor. May not be an option. Linear actuators would be an option but getting a few to support that much weight would cost a fortune. Best idea is probably an electronic winch/chain hoist. You'll need to design a very heavy duty shelf that can be suspended by the corners, and carry that much weight with no deflection. Its definitely possible, buit will be very expensive. I would definitely let an engineer design it and get it all fabricated.

[kcress]

Thanks folks!


Grins; You've missed the slick part! It's in a fireplace chase.. This means two 13" Light Pipes pumping the Sun directly into the tank. That's like a couple of 400W HIDs. So my day lighting is greatly reduced. That was, in fact, the original motivator for the project.

snailrider; I like that.. You mean Acme threads I believe. They are specifically designed to transfer power and work well. Hmmm.

atnixon; While normally I would agree with your setiment, doing this project myself is a big part of the "experience and pleasure" to be derived by it.

Eupterus: MFK?? Marginally Friendly Kangaroos?

sploke; There will be 34" under the bottom of the tank when in the lowered position as the chase area drops to below the the room's floor level by a foot. I am considering a single hydraulic jack that just sits under the center and raises and lowers things the needed 12". The four corners would be guided and ultimately at the bottom the four corner supports would bottom out so the jack can be removed for service, etc., and at the top there are latches that lock the the corner supports so the the tank sits on mechanical stops - not the hydraulics.

Suspending from above would require a much stouter chase and would lead to swinging pendulum syndrome in an earthquake. Might be kinda cool for that swaying kelp forest effect though.. :grinyes:

Also, I am an engineer and do my own TIG welding so building a stout trussed and gusseted shelf is not a problem for me.

[Sploke]

I like the Light Pipe idea...I actually thought about that for when I do a big tank when we build the addition. I'm curious to see how well it works out.

In that case, if you have the hole already, a hydraulic jack would definitely be able to handle that. The only hard part I would be leery about is balancing it. You can definitely weld up a platform stiff enough to support the weight, but balancing it on a single cylinder in the middle would be scary as heck to me. Maybe use 3 of them spread across the span? Then bolt the trussed platform to the top plate on the lift. I'm not sure how you would secure the bottom part of the jacks, I guess drill into the concrete and bolt them down.

[msjinkzd]

MFK?? Marginally Friendly Kangaroos?



This gave me a chuckle! Monster Fish Keepers, the sister site to Aquaria Central.

[snailrider]

I would stay away from hydraulics for personal reasons of dependability.

Many 4 story buildings use hydraulic elevators. To keep it balanced is no problem, just some tracks and wheels for it to run in.

The car lift is a great design. The four post with chains type, not the air piston type. Problem if a chain breaks, or one stretches.

The big concern is smoothness. I think the screw would be the smoothest safest way. It could be done with two or four screws. Build a good cradle if you use steel. Tig would just take forever, buzz box and 7018 ac or dc.

I am a journeyman welder with great fab and design skills. My stuff works and lasts. Sounds like you have a good grasp on this also. With the screws you can use electric or hand crank.

Maybe some thrust bearings or bushings on the bottom. If you make it as a stand alone unit, if you ever moved, it could go with.

I thought I heard mention that you are in CALI. If so and you are in Orange county... on Edinger just off the highway McFadden Dale hardware has the screw. They have the nuts also.

Large diameter stuff also. Buy your metal at Benner Metals in Orange.

Follow me on this. Get the screw rod, have the end machined to accept your sprocket (cam shaft spocket maybe) then have it so you can put a tapered wheel bearing, (or use break hubs) all secured in a nice solid frame.

Syncronizing the screws would have to be allowed for leveling purpose.

I may may a sketch for the fun of it

[Reefscape]

atnixon; While normally I would agree with your setiment, doing this project myself is a big part of the "experience and pleasure" to be derived by it.

Eupterus: MFK?? Marginally Friendly Kangaroos?

Monster Fishkeepers (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/) ( <------ click me )- Aquaria Central Sister site

Niko

[kcress]

sploke; I'm in Santa Cruz, CA. About 70mi south of San Francisco. In the land of PG&E(Pacific Graft & Extortion). Once they bumbled that whole energy purchasing thing my power costs jumped to about 0.25/kWHr. My fun tank which had five 175W MH pendants over it had to be switched to four 15W compact fluorescents and a 90W MH just so I could keep eating. I have been contemplating sun tubes ever since. Especially when a beam of sunlight stabs into the tank corner for a few minutes in the late afternoon and makes the MH look like a mere candle.

Here's the best sun tube, technically speaking, that I can find.
http://www.sunpipe.com/10.htm
Note the light output comments at the bottom.

I'll put up a picture when I get them in so you can make your own assessment.

I too am concerned by the added complexity of balance for several schemes we've/I've come up with.

So the most straight forward one I can come up with that won't cost a fortune is using four of these to make the actual legs of the stand.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35725&stc=1&d=1196317390

I'd cut off the crank handles and then drive the shaft stubs with gear motors. This would put all the the hardware up under the tank bottom leaving me with more floor space for auxiliary tank equipment.

msjinkzd; Thanks. I had no idea.

snailrider; Great info there. I'm Northern CA,(central really). Dang, we could've got together on it. :thud:

BTW: The jack pictured is rated at 3,500lbs. So with each doing about 700lbs they shouldn't be very taxed.

Harbor Freight $30.

[Sploke]

Yeah my parents have installed a few of those things in their house for supplemental lighting, and I was really impressed with how well they work. I want to do a few in my house as well, and over a big tank I think it would be pretty awesome.

[Sploke]

And as far as leveling, I think what I would do is try to get one motor to drive all 4 jacks with chains or something, so they all turn at the same rate. That way you don't have to worry about synchronizing all 4 corners with different motors.

[clown-lover]

We just completed some Fiber work for the big arena here in town and they use a synchronized motor system for raising and lowering their lighting systems. One would think that if it can be completed on a large scale like that a smaller version somewhere would have to be available. In fact the motors they installed came out of California.. Have no clue who etc.. But I could call DJ and find out if you really wanted to know.

[kcress]

Thanks sploke, clown-lover.

I was told today that the motors run at different speeds with load. So if one is lightly loaded it runs faster until it picks up more of the load so the synchronizing of the four legs would not be too hard. My concern with a single drive would be the initial setup and then the quasi dangerous chain running everywhere and around corners. Probably be less pricey though.

[wantvws]

The entire airport in Kobe, Japan is on hydraulic jacks, as the man-made island it is on is slowly sinking into the ocean....something like 9" I think so far. I would think a system to raise and lower an aquarium is certainly possible. Myself, I would want some sort of scissor lift type thing controlled by a single hydraulic cylinder...that way you don't have the worry of syncing motors. I worked at a repair shop and we had a Snap-On portable lift that would lift a car 36" and was controlled by a single cylinder....similar to below.
Robbie

[Finley]

Is there any reason that you couldn't have it slide out horizontally, thereby giving yourself full access above and around, rather than hoiking it up and down? Much less energy and engineering required, and full access to the top of the tank.

Remember that 23" still isn't much considering that you will likely need to partially climb in to reach the bottom and rear of the tank to service it. Even if you are a slim and nimble engineer :) this could become a major pain, or even be dangerous considering the positioning of your body necessary to reach back there, with so little head space above the water.

Finley

[snailrider]

Those jacks probably work if you tip them upside down, the crank handles go clean through right? Weld a shaft between the crank handles on the end jacks just run the crank handles forward out the front, but keep the end jacks cranks welded so the front an back jack turn together.

Then two people crank at the same rpm, simple as pie. Or one person and just crank one end up and down for a wave maker.

Two jack per end, crank handles welded together using shaft to syncronize end jacks. Upside down so handles stay in one spot for the hole through the wall.

I would advise against it however. I have used harbor frieght jacks as those, and trust me, you will curse the day.

And thanks for the insight on Pipe Lites. My folks have one and it is awesome. I was going to spend bucks on some lighting that sucks electricity, but not any more.

Depot has a 10" for about $200 all said and done.

[kcress]

Man.. Great ideas still rollin in.

wantvws; So what you're saying is since sea level will be going up I should make my tank able to rise higher? :grinyes:

The motorcycle/car scissor jacks all suffer from (motorcycle=can't lift a ton) space hogging. Picture a tank not as long as yours and trying to fit all the stuff under yours in with one of these jacks... :nilly:

Finley; Excellent point!!! One sided access is bothering me a lot. My present tank/s which is 12 feet long and only accessible from the front has been manageable but I have often wished I could get to the back. Wow. Picture a bedroom dresser with one ton of pig-iron in the top drawer. I'll just pull this out and :eek3: see my life flash before my eyes. Crazy. But dang if that isn't an excellent point. I shall stop and consider how it could be done as I like the idea a lot. Cantilevering one ton.. :screwy: I like it!

snailrider; Wow, nice thought on those jacks!! I think you're right, I could tie them together with a rod front to back as that cranking shaft does pass thru. Heck then a single chain in the back to tie the two sides together.. one crank/motor. Sweet idea.

Yes I agree Harbor Freight stuff is generally garbage.. Like the three cases of fuses I bought that all had to be sent back on a safety recall. Seems they didn't actually blow when overloaded. :swear:

My thought was that since the jacks would only be loaded 600/3500ths of their, no doubt, over generous ratings, they should be a little more than adequate.

Light pipes; Home Despot you say?? I will check those out. As I said the ones I linked to were technically superior to others. For instance they are actually silver plated then twice coated to prevent tarnishing of the silver mirror internal plating. This is exactly how telescope mirrors are done. I don't believe anyone else does this.

Most are the reflective laminates applied to the inside of flattened tubes that you then assemble like stovepipe. The laminate slowly tarnishes from day one. However! The ones I'm referring to probably cost about $700 a pop. I can stand some tarnish for hundreds of dollars in savings. I will check them out if you are indeed referring to HomeDespot.

[Grins]

I know the pipe lights are often used in homes to give light during daylight hours and that they look much like a recessed light fixture when installed. But I'm having a hard time imagining them producing the quality/intensity of light you'd need to support anything other than fish and macros.

[Sploke]

In a large tank they might be good enough to provide supplemental lighting, with a few spot halides or something for corals?

[snailrider]

kcress, yes depot, but lowes has even better ones--Solar makes the Skyview Skylight which has a much better top collector and better quality than the ones at depot.

The ones you posted about I think are sold at home depots in Utah.

I called my folks today and asked what kind they had, it is a SolaTube.

They paid $600 for the hardware 10 or more years ago and it still works excellent. At dusk, the halway is still lit up well, and it is hard to see outside.

Grins brings up a great point about the intensity. With the difuser inside they are designed to spread the light out throughout the room. A different difuser with a less angle would be benificial and could focus the light onto the tank. It may fry the fish though.

I'm thinking of the smaller tube light, then replacing the inside difuser with something else or maybe just clear glass. This then may give a stronger light source, probably even more than being in direct sun. Being at this lattitude the sun isn't as strong as the tropics so this could be good.

Yep it is on my Christmas list. If you own your home you can get credits from you local power company and I believe a tax break also. They are offering incentives for people to use these energy efficient items.

Spoke, something the retailers aren't telling you is that halides, actinics etc are still all artificial light. The light pipes collect sun rays and actually intensify them, then split it up with a difuser.

It is easier to sell a light that you can move with your tank, for renters etc. It is an easier sell with a high profit margin. It's like eating vitamins. You get your vitamins etc, but nature puts it together in a way organic creatures can utilize it.

Let me cite an occurance. In the evening the sun hits my tank in such a way I get the most vibrant full spectrum rainbow imaginable. I cannot describe the colors as vividly and brilliantly as they hit the floor and walls.

You show me any light that can generate that intense rainbow full spectrum. Will the pipe skylight generate that? I really don't know, but probably will. It is powered by the sun.

[kcress]

Thanks snailrider. I'll definitely check out Lowe's then. SolaTube was one of the first makers I think.

Yes I was always going to jettison the diffuser!! You are absolutely correct in that the light pipes are generally used to light up as large an area as possible which is certainly not what we need. Normally the diffuser is just the very end covering of the tube. I would probably use something like clear Plexiglas, etc.