Questions about discus...

[The Zigman]

Hi,
I hear alot of people suggesting to remove the carbon from a filter is you are going to have discus because of some kind of plankton colonizing in the carbon? If I have this correct, then what if I have a UV sterilizer? will that kill the Plankton or whatever we are not wanting to live in the carbon? (don't we need the carbon? or is the biological filter going to be all there is?)
Also, i read alot about fish spawning in tanks, and was just looking for a generalized summary of:
1 How do you know when your fish (discus) are going to spawn?
2 How do I transfer the eggs / fry into the quarantine tank
3 Do I wait till they hatch and attempt to move the fry? or do you move the eggs?

Not looking to become a breeder or anything, but I am putting a lot of time, effort, and $$$ into this tank, and hopefully the fish appreciate it, and give me the satisfaction of spawning in there, to let me know I did it right. ( If not they are going to have to get a paper route or something to help pay the rent!!)

the tank is 125 gallons, plan to use 2 - 500 watt titanium heaters to maintain the 82 degrees or so.

any other insight would be very much appreciated.
Thanks!

[The Zigman]

Anyone?

[reptileguy2727]

No carbon, but not because of plankton. I don't use carbon in any of my tanks anymore. You will not have any ill effects as long as you are doing enough water changes. The biggest reason is because carbon will remove trace elements and micronutrients. These things are vital for fish and plants and long term can end up causing problems. HLLE has been shown to be associated with carbon in some cases. HITH can even be contributed to by carbon. HLLE and HITH can be contributed to by a number of things (water quality, diet (including trace elements and micronutrients), etc.). I make a distinction between the two in that HITH has Hexamita spp. and/or Spironucelus vortens present, even if they are not the main cause and HLLE doe snto have any of these protozoans present.

[The Zigman]

So then my filter should just have the foam, Some bio material, (i have biomax) and thats it? Should I fill 2 trays with Biomax? Will my new 16 Watt UV sterilizer adversly effect anything? I have had several small tanks in the past, but the 125 i have now is the biggest, it's still empty, but I want to be sure it is set up correctly (and cycled) before I add the fish. I hope to have enough live plants to keep the oxegneation level up.

[reptileguy2727]

What filter do you have?

I have Fluvals. I set them up so the water first goes through the course mechanical pads that come with the filter. Then the water goes through as much polyester pillow stuffing that I can cram in the next compartment. This serves as a very good fine mechanical/polishing media. The the rest is filled with Biomax. This is very economical in the long run. The only thing that needs to be replaced is the pillw stuffing, which is very cheap at Wal-Mart and other places. The course mechanical pads may need to be replaced eventually, but last a very long time.

[Star_Rider]

in regards to raising fry..do not remove the eggs do not remove the wiggler/fry
let the discus parent raise the fry.
the fry feed off of the parents slime coating..it will supply the fry with the nutrition they need until they begin to forage.

one thing tho..discus are very sensitive to activities around them. try to keep the parents isolated and do not disturb them too much.

[reptileguy2727]

Most breeders keep breeding pairs in their own smaller tank so that they have the isolation and peace they need, as well as an easier to manage tank. Most have an extremely aggressive water change schedule as well, which is easier to maintain on the smaller tank. So you may want to let them grow up and pair off in the 125, then move the/a pair to something like a 29-40.

[The Zigman]

Yeah, I was going to get some juvinile discus from a couple of reputable sources, and put them all in the 125. Hopefully some of them will pair off, not looking to breed any fishes, but I just thought if they paired off, and spawned, then I must have done it right. Anyway, i have a Fluval FX5, and a uv sterilizer. I put up some pics in the photo gallery section. Need to save some $$$ for a couple of good heeaters now..

Will the parent discus be able to defend the fry from other fish in the tank if they do spawn & hatch in the 125?

[reptileguy2727]

Definitely go with Stealth heaters. They look better, are very accurate, and are shatter-proof.

The FX5 is good, I have one on my 150. The water goes up the outer rings then down the center. I filled the bottom two inner circles with Biomax. The top half is half-filled with Biomax and on top of that I crammed as much polyester pillow stuffing as I could. This setup works very well, better than anything else I have tried.

[The Zigman]

Looks like I'll have to buy some more Biomax...
Any thoughts on the sterilizer? Bought it just to reduce the risk of any parasites or bacterial infections on the Discus...

[reptileguy2727]

It should not be an issue. They are usually only used for saltwater aquariums so it is a little different. You may want to use it like its ideal use in saltwater, as in maybe once a month run it for a little while, and after adding fish. Are you going to be quarantining fish before you add them to this tank?

[The Zigman]

Yes, I am planning on setting up an eclipse 12 for quarantining new fish.

Is there anmything that you see i am overlooking? Planning on installing 2 300 watt heaters to maintain 85degree water for the discus.

[RedScare]

Also, i read alot about fish spawning in tanks, and was just looking for a generalized summary of:
1 How do you know when your fish (discus) are going to spawn?
2 How do I transfer the eggs / fry into the quarantine tank
3 Do I wait till they hatch and attempt to move the fry? or do you move the eggs?

the tank is 125 gallons, plan to use 2 - 500 watt titanium heaters to maintain the 82 degrees or so.


1) They lay eggs. Usually not fertile till about age 2. It will take the parents a few times to get it right.

2) Best way is to separate mated pairs before spawning. Can use a breeding cone.

3) Always let Discus raise their fry till they are eating on their own. They need to feed off the parents.

The heater issue is only relevant to the amount you wish to raise tank temps compared to the environment it is in. If you want to raise the tank temps 30 Degrees I would use more heaters, if you want to raise it 2 degrees I would use less. I use 2 200 watt stealths in my 55 gallon to raise it 20 degrees from room temps overwinter here. Tank temps around 82-84.

I think Stealth heaters are cheaper than titanium and just as reliable.

[Star_Rider]

FYI

UV sterilizers work.. in either FW or marine tanks.
they are limited on efficiency tho as to be effective they need a flow rate to match the uv light power. it is the exposure time to the UV that kills bacteria.
if set up correctly they will kill most of the bacteria that runs thru them..this includes beneficial bacteria too.
they can be used during outbreaks of infestation and when run in conjunction with meds they are effective.
you should not have to run them continually. nor is that advised..

[reptileguy2727]

If you can find one that will work with your tubing, an in-line heater may be a better option than two or three in-tank heaters. They hookup in the same line as your filter tubing, just like you have your UV sterilizer setup.

[el wadd]

I use a hydor in-line heater on my 96g and I gotta tell you it's the best heater I've EVER used. No more worry about shattering, no more unsightly heater hanging in your tank....less things in the actual tank the better in my opinion.

[The Zigman]

I looked at the HYDOR inline heaters. I thought the 300 watt unit would only do an 80 gallon tank. This is what I originally wanted. You run just 1 on a 96 with discus, and it keeps the temp at 85ish? I even thought of running 2 of them side by side ...

[reptileguy2727]

You could run one after the other. The first will probably always be on and the second will pick up the slack.

[pinkertd]

Poor water quality and inadaquate diet are the biggest causes of Hole In The Head disease...as well as many other fish ailments. HITH can be reversed with increased frequent water changes and an improved diet enriched with vitamins. Improper nutrition and environment are just as harmful to fish as they are to humans. Carbon will not harm fish or the tank or the plants or strip the water of minerals. It clarifies the water. It has a useful life of between 2-4 weeks then becomes an additional media for beneficial bacteria. Now, if you leave your carbon or carbon cartridge in the tank for months on end to just sit there to accumulate disgusting gunk and you don't do regular frequent water changes to keep the nitrates low, and you do not feed your particular fish the diet that they need to keep them healthy and growing it is only a matter of time before your fish succumb to disease/ill health and premature death.

[reptileguy2727]

Water quality and diet are the most important issues, but carbon can have the negative effects described. Many people who have plants who stop using carbon notice an improvement. Carbon won't kill your fish or plants, but without it they can do noticeably better. Water clarity should not be an issue with adequate filtration (not including carbon) and water changes, the same goes for any smell.

And yes, there have been cases where carbon has been shown to be associated with HLLE. When the carbon was in, the HLLE developed. When carbon was removed, it went away. When it was returned, so did the HLLE. Every case is different. Most are not associated with carbon, at least not as a significant cause. But sometimes it does make a difference.

Carbon does not just remove smell, discoloration, and medications. It removes all sorts of chemicals in the water column. This does include things like trace elements and micronutrients.

I don't use it and have seen an improvement. I have not had any problems and have had less issues with illness. Maybe others have a lot of reason to keep using carbon, but I do not see any. In my opinion and experience the same benefits you can get from carbon can be achieved with cheaper or free water water changes without running the risks of the consequences of carbon. Water changes are needed and good no matter what, why waste money on carbon?

Diet is not just what they eat, the major nutrients such as protein, carbohydrates, and fats. It includes many other things like the vitamins mentioned as well as micronutrients and trace elements. Some of these are provided in the water, from which carbon will remove them.

Please note that I am making a distinction between HITH and HLLE as in HLLE does not include Hexamita spp. or Spironucleus vortens infestations as the only or main cause as opposed to HITH where these parasites are present (and the only or main cause of the ailment). However carbon can contribute to both.

[The Zigman]

If I fill the tank woth RO water, doesnt the RO filter remove these trace elements as well? Should I even bother with the RO then? I have gotten some conflicting information about several thisng in the past.

Thanks for all of the help and advise so far!

[reptileguy2727]

You don't want to use pure RO, and it will just dilute what is in the other water.

What is your tap's natural pH?

[The Zigman]

I have very hard well water, last time I checked the PH was 7.5 I think. Have gotten a new well since then and need to re-check the PH. Never used RO before with the small tanks I have had in the past, straight out of the tap, let it cycle for a week and add fish. never really had any trouble before. I'll pick up a test kit thjis weekend and re test it..

[elementkid65]

oh and btw i would let it cycle untill the cycle is finished.
A 125 would take longer to cycle unless you use seachems stabalize which when treated for a week get the bacteria colony going.

[reptileguy2727]

The best way to cycle is fishless with bottled ammonia. Cycling this way can take less than two weeks and it is truly cycled and ready for fish.