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[750t]

Jeez I see all these pictures of great looking planted tanks. So months ago I decided to do my 20. I have read every post on this subject. Followed every link I could. Nothing but bad results. Plants are growing but very slowly. And the algea is well lets just say its the dominate plant in my tank. Ive got the ferts micro and macro, some co2 the hagen system and 70 watts of light. How do you all get these tanks looking so great. I have a house full of plants ALL of them are fantasic looking but my fisk tank ??? I am using gravel with root tabs could this be causing slow growth and the mega algea? Yesterday I cleaned everythig to remove as much algea as I could and am now tyring the 3 day blackout. I keep telling myself this cant be that difficult but I see the end is fast approching. Totally depressed. Tim

[Skittyfish]

Seems like a lot of light! is it a 20 tall? How long do you keep the lights on each day? I have a 72 g with 140w of light and I only keep it on 9 hours a day. And my plants grow like weeds in a garden.

[Tempest]

Usual sort of questions... :) What are the parameters of your tank? ph,kh, nitrate.. Can you detect any ammonia or nitrites?
What *sort* of roottabs? If you have the type with ammonia in them, you /can/ have that get to your water column if your gravel layer is shallow or you do a lot of replanting. What is your fertilizing regime?

[Slappy*McFish]

This (http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/barr_02_01.shtml) article by Tom Barr(Plantbrain) is something you should look over, and is a good guide to follow if you want to have a successful plant tank. If you follow these basic recommendations and make sure your tank isn't over crowded with fish, then you are well on your way.

[carpguy]

You have a good bit of light in there and yeast generated CO2. This wasn't a good mix for me on my 30g and I wound up with chronic algae problems before going over to pressurized. The difference with higher CO2 was night and day.

How is the CO2? pH and KH readings? Bubbles per minute? Have you tried supplementing with excel or a second DIY bottle?

[superjohnny]

3.5wpg is quite a bit of light for a tank that's not established.

I found with my tank that the algae went away after the plants took over the tank. I had terrible GW algae for a really long time. It drove me to buy a UV sterilizer (which worked magic). After a month or two the tank was really growing out and I hadn't seen GW in a while so I disconnected the UV sterilizer. A month later still no algae.

My tank has 2 wpg btw and 2 DIY CO2 bottles.

So what kind of plants are you trying to grow? How many plants? How big are they? etc.

You may want to put in a few amazon swords, some crypts and some other fast-growing cheap plants in there till you find the right balance. Then trade them in to your LFS for the plants you really like.

[djlen]

Basically, as you can tell, no one can help without the info requested above. You need to be more specific about these things:
What are you dosing, how much and how often? Any Trace? Iron can cause problems if overdosed......dosing Iron?
What is your kH and pH?
What kind of Root Tabs, and how deeply buried are they?
Plants....what kind and how many?
How many fish?
Seems like the problem is not enough of CO2 but we can't be sure without the above info. In the mean time the black out is a good idea.
Len

[750t]

Things are a little better since the blackout. My tank stats are:
20 gallon
Whisper jr. filter
70 watts
hagen co2 bubble rate varies
ph 7.6 from the tap
7.0 to 7.2 with co2
kh 5 degrees
nirtate 0 to 5 ppm
nitrite and ammonia 0
Plants are:
5 rotala roundundifolia
5 hyrophila difformis
2 clumps of micro sword
1 java fern
1 amazon sword
4 plants unidentified
Ferts are:
Seachams flourish 2 times a week
Seachams phosphorus,potaasium, and nitrogen once a week
Seachams flourish excel every third day
Seachams root taps
I use the recommended dosage for beginners.
Fish: 5 adult guppies,7 juvis and about 10 fry, 2 ottos and of course SNAILS.
Lights: I was leaving the lights on for 10 to 12 hours a day but now I have cut back to 6 to 8 hours.
The micro sword is doing very well starting to spred , the rotalas are not doing so hot everything else is growing but covered with algea.

[djlen]

Your CO2ppm at 7.0 is only 15ppm. You need to shoot for 20-30
ppm to increase your plant growth.
You need to dose KNO3 to reach between 5 and 10 ppm N and keep it there.
Phosphates need to be between .50 and 1.0 ppm P and keep it there.
If you are not testing for these, IMO you should be.
Also test regularly for pH to determine whether the combo of Excel and CO2 is giving you a pH of 6.7 - 6.8 which will put you in the 23 - 29ppm area, where you want to be.

Everything else looks good dosage wise, so with the above tweaks you should be able to run your lights for 10-12 hours/day
without a problem.

Never used one, but isn't that Whisper filter a HOB? If so, and it has an adjustable flow rate, you might want to turn that flow rate down so as not to gas off your CO2. Surface disturbance will waste a lot of CO2.
Len

[750t]

Thanks you very much for your reply. The whisper is a hob but its as small as you can buy,recommended for a 5 to 10 gal tank. I keep my water level high to minimize surface movement.
I just ordered a phosphate test kit yesterday from big als. Im also going to add a second bottle of co2. Because I have never been able to keep the ph at 6.8. I got it there one time.
Question about flourish excel, on the bottle it states than you can over dose this how much? The dosage is 1ml for every ten gal. Tim

[djlen]

I think you'll be ok with the Excell/CO2 as long as you keep an eye on the pH. If you add another bottle of CO2 you can probably discontinue using the Excel. Just shoot for the 6.7 - 6.8, which you just might get with 2 bottles.
I found that the easiest way to keep a steady ph with a 2-bottle DIY CO2, when I was using it, was to change one bottle every week to keep the supply fresh. If I waited for the bottles to start to fade at the same time, it sometimes resulted in a large rise in pH, which sometimes resulted in algae issues for me.
Len

[750t]

I got a phosphate test kit yesterday,seachams type. The phosphate level is at 1.0 mg/l the kit states to divide by 3 to get the phosphorous level. Do I need to do this or is the phosphate what I want?
Also I added a second co2 bottle only on this one Im using a air stone Im getting a constant stream of bubbles like a air pump. Ph still stuck at 7.0 Im wondering is there a better way to get the co2 diffused? Thanks Tim

[djlen]

Monitor the Phosphates. 1.0 is ideal if you can keep it there. My plants use a ton of PO4 so I'm always watching.
There are many different ways to diffuse the gas that are better than an air stone. Here Karen Randall shows how to inject through a HOB such as your Whisper:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/aquatic/default.asp
Didn't you say you had a Hagen CO2 system? It has a diffuser that comes with it, right? From what I hear that diffuser is supposed to be very effective. Run the tube from your bottle into that. It will do a much better job than an airstone or through a HOB filter.
Once you start doing all of this be sure and monitor your pH to make sure you don't over inject the CO2. You know how to combine your kH and pH to determine your CO2ppm, right?
Len

[750t]

Yea I have the hagen diffuser, I have 1 bottle connected to that and the other connected to the air stone. I guess I will use a tee and connect both bottles to the hagen diffuser. So far Im not impressed with the hagen system. The lid on the bottle stripped out after a month. I just didnt think the diffuser was doing a very good job. Bubbles sometimes get stuck and those pesky snails will get in there and block the bubble flow. But I will give the 2 bottles a try.Yes I do know how to calculate the co2 but it dosnt matter when your stuck at 7.0. Len I want to thank you very much for helping me. Iam going to get this tank working. I know I should be using pressurized co2 but I just cant afford it right now. I do have 4 other tanks. Thanks again Tim( stuck at 7.0 )

[djlen]

If you 'tee' your bottles together and run into the Hagen diffuser I'm confident that you're going to see a drop in pH.
Keep an eye on it.
Len

[750t]

Things seemed to be getting better. Ph stuck at 7.0 still. Then I raised the nitrogen from >5ppm to 10ppm. Pow three days later Moss everywhere. Im not talking a little bit of algea its more like pond moss. So here I go again, cleaned the tank did a 75% water change,disconnected the co2, added NO ferts and just like london in 1940 under blackout conditions again! I think when this bout clears Im gonna go with very small amonts of ferts and take it very slowly. I guess 10ppm of nitrogen is way high for my tank. Oh I all most forgot whats the longest blackout period I can go with doing damage to the plants? Tim

[Hebdizzle]

is dosing stump-removers or pure KNO3 the easiest way to get nitrates for plants?

[djlen]

Hebdizzle, yes KNO3 is available in other sources, but stump remover is commonly used as it is easily available. Just make sure it's 100% KNO3. I use Spectracide Stump Remover(Lowe's) and can vouch for it's purity.

750t, did you 'tee' your bottles together? If so, I can't understand why you're not getting better absorption. You need 6.7 - 6.8 pH. Could your filter be gassing it off? I was injecting with 2 bottles in a 40 for over a year, with an Aqua Clear(HOB) and could regulate the pH by adjusting the water flow up or down. If I left it on high it would gas off too much.
The problem with all that light is that you need all the ferts and good CO2 absorption. You can tinker with the N, but I would work on the pH as well.
Len

[750t]

Yes I did, and I really didnt get an increase in bubbles. About one every 6 to 12 seconds. I dont understand this. When I had one bottle connected to the air stone there was a constant flow of bubbles. And one bottle to the hagen diffuser the bubble rate was the same one every 6 to 12 seconds. At first I thought maybe I had a leak but if there was a leak I wouldnt of had any bubbles. I just dont get it.
If this filter is gasing off the co2 then Im in trouble. I have a ac mini on a 5 gal and it has twice the flow of this little whisper. Maybe I should put the filter on a timer and only run it at night?
Im just grasping at different ideas. My bottles are fisher brand wash bottles and hold 1000 ml. I use 3 cups of sugar and 1 teaspoon of yeast and fill 3/4 full of tap water, could this be too much sugar? Tim

[750t]

Oh yea Ive been looking at a power reacter. This one is at www.plantguild.com looks cool . I wonder if this would help or just a waste of money. Tim

[750t]

I dont know what the heck is happening here. Yesterday I uncovered the tank and did a 50% water change and refilled the co2. Only this time I used red star yeast. This was at 4 pm. I get home from work this morning and the co2 is way out of controll. Constant bubbles. Checked the ph (I hate these hagen test kits) but as close as I can tell the ph is 6.2 to 6.4. This gives me a co2 of 60 to 94 ppm. All the fish are at the top of the water. How much danger are my fish in with the co2 this high? I just cant beleive a different kind of yeast made this much of a difference. Please respond. Tim

[djlen]

Couldn't understand why you weren't getting better absorption before......probably bad yeast.
Turn up the Whisper and if you can add an air-stone to circulate the water and gas off the excess. They will probably be ok.
CO2 gasses off pretty quickly.
Some people do a water change. I don't like to do that with my tanks as it really bangs the pH.
This is why I always felt it a good idea to make bottle changes on days when I'll be around to monitor the pH.
The good news is......you may not need the two bottles after all.
Len