Gill Disease??

[WaterBaby]

I'm a little worried about one of my Red Eyed Tetras. The gill covers, or operculum (yes, I had to look this word up in a google search) are for a lack of a better term, flared out.

I first noticed it last week. The actual gills under the covers are really not red or swollen. The edges of the covers look a little curved in. It is breathing rapidly with it's mouth open. There are no visible parasites or white patches. It is having a little difficulty eating and not as plump as the others (but is eating some). Its fins are not clamped, but it's swimming a little funny. It hangs out in the top part of the tank hidden away by the filter intake tube (although not at the surface). It's not gulping for air at the surface.

I did ask the LFS about this, and they said that it is probably some kind of bacterial gill disease, and recommended tetracycline. I did a 4 dose cycle, and have just finished. I don't know if it helped or not, but am worried about my other fish.

I did lose one other Red Eyed Tetra last month. To what, I don't know. By the time I found it, it was a little cannibalized carcass stuck to my filter intake:(. Maybe it died of the same thing??

I would appreciate any input. I did alot of surfing for this, and did read that true Gill disease is rare, and that once the gills are damaged, they don't return to normal.

Tank specs are:
6 gallon Eclipse system
3 Red Eyed Tetras
3 Corys
pH 7.0
No nitrates, ammonia,
Nitrates within normal parameters
Temp at 78 (this has been fluctuating up a little during the day, cause it's been so darned hot lately)

[alexv1n]

I wonder if my neon tetras suffer from the same disease if it's a disease, of course.

When I got 20 little neons four months ago they were really young. I have noticed that one fish had its right operculum damaged or something happened to it so it was deformed and did not cover the gill completely. They all seem to feel OK and I didn't bother much. The fish grew and with it, the gap in the gill became more and more obvious.

Frankly I thought it was a birth defect of some sort. It's quite likely that fish sold in LFSes are result of inbreeding with possibility of different defects.

The fish seemed healthy otherwise, eat well and grew along with others.

Not too long ago I noticed another neon had very similar defect on right operculum as well! I don't think I have missed it earlier (even though, it's not impossible). I watched the two for the last two weeks and it seems that the problem worsens.

I decided to remove the affected fish from the main tank just to be safe and inspected them closer. The operculum seemed to be "melting" and curling a little. When looking from front (mouth) I can see the operculum sticking a bit to the side. Also the "older" neon seems to have "face" distortion. Again, when looking from front, I can see that the eye on the affected side seats considerably lower than on the opposite side.

I tried to look through the net trying to find what the cause of this could be but I couldn't find anything definitive.

It looks like gills themselves are not affected. They are pink, no white spots or visible damage to them. And fish stayed active.

I'm attaching two photos of the poor things. Any ideas?

[alexv1n]

Here is the second photo.

[WaterBaby]

Thanks for the pics. I wish I could take mine out of the tank for inspection, but with my luck, I'll kill the bugger. I also tried taking a few pics of him to post, but they're very fuzzy.

Your pics look to me like the gill covers are being eaten away. You can see the gills underneath (which do look a little on the red side) from a side view.

On my tetra the gill covers are covering the gills if you look from the side, but are extended away from them. If you look at the fish from the front, the gill covers look swollen away from the face, like chubby cheeks.

He wasn't like this before last week. I am now wondering, could it be gill flukes? I have noticed in the past that one or two of my cory's flipped or twisted around on the gravel on the bottom of the tank, but only a very few times (and not recently), and only when being fed. I thought that this was some kind of way to get the food from between the gravel so they could eat it.

Having searched some past posts, I came across the gill fluke thing. None of the other fish seem affected like this one. Wouldn't the original infected Cory's (if this is what it is) still be infected? Can you see gill flukes?

[alexv1n]

Not that I know much about this, but it could be gill hyperplasia - gill swelling as a result of some tissue irritation or infection.

I guess you can search the net and find some more info on this. Here is one of the web sites for you: http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/gill%20disease.htm

[WaterBaby]

It's been a few days since the end of the 4 dose round of tetracycline, and I really can't tell if it helped or not.

The gill covers still look a little extended (now I wish I had taken a picture to start, I forgot how bad they looked before), and he still has the rapid breathing, but he is not hanging around the top of the tank anymore.

Should I have seen any kind of improvement by now? Do you think that he is permanently damaged, and it is just a matter of time before he goes to fishie heaven? I don't know how long he can go on breathing like that.... must be tiresome....

[WaterBaby]

I had to bump this one to the top cause I need some opinions.

The tetra in question went to fishie heaven while I was away for the weekend....

NOW:

I am noticing that one of my julli cories is fighting going "belly up". It was not like this on Friday. It is laying on the bottom of the tank, kinda sideways and its fins are clamping.

It is not showing any signs of whatever the tetra had, but I am concerned that it may be something related... However, this is coming on suddenly.

This will be the 3rd fish I have lost (or will be losing I fear) in the past 4 months.

Does anyone have "ANY" ideas as to what is going on here. Might there be some kind of bacteria or virus in my tank, and where the heck did it come from??

Do I have to completely dismantle my tank and scrub it down? I don't have a hospital tank or another tank to put the fish if I have to clean everything. And more importantly, if it is a virus or bacteria wouldn't this be in the water, and or, biofilter? How could I re-use the water if I cleaned the tank, or would I have to cycle all over again?

I am beginnning to think that all the occupants in my tank are waiting in line for the grim reaper...... and I can't do anything to stop it..

PLEASE, SOME SUGGESTIONS...

I just checked "again" all the water parameters.
pH- 7.2
no ammonia or nitrites
nitrates 20ppm
Temp 80 degrees

[famman]

Sounds like a typical bacterial infection. Tetracycline is primarily effective against 'gram-negative' bacteria. Try a round of maracyn, which is effective against 'gram-positive' bacteria. Could also be a true fungus, in which case try Jungle - Fungus Clear. You can use the maracyn and fungus clear together.
good luck
:)

[WaterBaby]

Thanks Famman.

I did do a round of tetracycline a couple of weeks ago because of the red eyed tetra, and still lost it. I did not isolate the tetra, but treated the whole tank.

Are you saying to do another round of tetracycline?

[beviking]

There are plenty of fish parasites that would attack the gills and not be seen with the unaided eye.
If you or someone you know could look at the gills under a microscope b4 the fish died, maybe they could see something?
Yes, the gills could be damaged beyond repair, but that doesn't mean the causitive agent (bacteria, parasite) is gone.
If you treat with chemicals that destroy the beneficial bacteria, you will have to cycle over again. What's that recommended bacteria in a bottle called?
Sorry I can't be of more help!:(

[famman]

No, do not do another round of tetracycline.
Tetracycline is primarily effective against 'gram-negative' bacteria.
Since you already did a round with tetracycline without success, I suggest you treat the entire tank for 'gram-positive' bacteria.
Maracyn is an example of a gram-positive anti-biotic. There are others.
Since the disease seems to have jumped around from fish to fish, I think you need to treat the entire tank rather than isolate and treat.
Also, if there may be gill parasites, copper-safe or had-a-snail is indicated.

The bacteria in a bottle I think is called Bio Spira or something like that. Check out Dr. Tim's library for more details.
http://www.marineland.com/drtims_articles.asp
good luck
:)

[OrionGirl]

Famman is suggesting you utilize a different antibiotic instead of a nother round of tetracycline. Antibiotics and bacteria are grouped as being gram-positive or gram-negative. A gram-negative anitbiotic won't kill the gram positive bacteria.
Many commercial preparations, called broad spectrum antibiotics, are a mix of both, and are more effective at dealing with a wide range of bacteria.

Have you had your test results confirmed by a third party? Test kits can go bad, so there may be a problem you're kit is not detecting.

[wetmanNY]

Hyperplasia, in which the gill tissues swell and even fuse together, is a result of longterm irritation. Bacteria are hard to combat-- but I surmise that the initial problem is caused by either single-celled parasites or gill flukes.

Fluke Tabs are effective though toxic. Praziquentel is much better but expensive.

Parasitic protists can be combatted with formalin or with potassium permanganate.

I have tetras with permanently damaged gills too.

[WaterBaby]

Thanks for the replys.

Yes, I did have the LFS test my water when this first happened, and my test kits are OK.

You know, the more I read about parasites and flukes (skin and gill included), the more I wonder if this is what it is.

Could it hurt to treat for this before I try another antibiotic? What should I use since it may be flukes?

Also, should I isolate the julii before I try anything, or leave it in the tank? Is there anything I can do in the meantime for it?????

[WaterBaby]

The sick julli is still trying to hang on. It's in one corner of the tank, and seems to be breathing slowly. When you get close, it moves, but clumsily, and then settles back into the corner.

While inspecting it a little bit closer, I noticed that it's barbels are missing. Is this a sign of something, or just a sign that it's sick?

I am going to the LFS in a few minutes for Maracyn, since I tried the tetracycline already.

Also, I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I feel so helpless. It's also a sad thing to watch my other cories "laying on top or near this fish, kinda-sorta comforting it).

[OrionGirl]

Barbel erosion is common, unfortunately, but not well identified. Some say they think it's the result of the cories digging in rough, sharp substrate, while others think it may indicate water quality issues. It can compromise the fishes ability to find food, but in a healthy tank the fish usually does fine.

There's another thread right now about flukes--excellent advice from wetman on treatment is included.

[WaterBaby]

and since I have a six gallon eclipse system, I cut the tab in half.

(I hope this is enough, because the directions say 1 tab per 10 gallons).

Anyway, the guy at the LFS told me to add some salt to the aquarium. I remember reading that salt was not particularly good for cories. My tank has never had any salt added to it.

I did buy the salt, but will not add any until I get some opinions. What say you????

I also took some of my water with me, and had it tested. It tested the same as my home testing. He did suggest that my temps were on the high side. They tend to run anywhere from 78 to 82 degrees.

[Rocketman]

Temperature is probably not an issue.Many fish can handle almost any reasonable temperature. It is the lack of dissolved oxygen in higher temperatures that cause us to keep our tanks in the mid-70's.

[famman]

With the Cories, you can use the salt on a temporary basis at 1/2 the normal or recomended dosage. I would consider it, it may be useful.
I would use the entire pill for the 6 gallon rather than 1/2 pill.
Barbel erosion usually occurs because of poor water quality at the very bottom usually because of detris trapped within and between larger grained gravel. Cories prefer the smallest grained gravel possible and absolutely love to snuffle in sand.
I've never seen a posting that positively connects sharp edged substrate with barbel erosion, in fact, I've read several postings that concluded there is no connection.
good luck
:)

[WaterBaby]

I do have rather large pebbles for a substrate (my 3 year olds pick).

I do try to vacuum every other week, but I do notice gunk between the pebbles.

I will add the other half of the Maracyn pill, and 1/2 tbs salt and see what happens.

I absolutely love my cories and will do anything to help them even if it means replacing the substrate.

[WaterBaby]

After trying and trying to post a few pictures (they were ultimately too big), here is my poor Cory.

It finally came to rest near the front of the tank. These were actually taken last night (2nd day of Maracyn treatment).

Does the gill under the operculum look unusually red to you? (I hope the pictures are good enough for you to see). It favors rolling to that side. The other gill doesn't look as red as this one.

But it's still hanging on. It tries to swim around the tank, but winds up spiriling down. It can't keep itself righted, and has to lean against something to keep itself upright

[WaterBaby]

Not as good as the first, but.............

[famman]

Yep, classic gill infection, possible parasite.
I do notice your gravel is quite large, you might consider a patch of sand for him to play in later after he recovers. You'll find that he will snuffle the entire surface area every day.
Your poor cory does look unhappy, I would definately plan to replace portions of the gravel with some with a much finer grain, or move him to a tank with sand or small grained gravel.
good luck
:)

[WaterBaby]

Thanks again Famman. I am not treating for parasites. Would you recommend doing so anyway. Can it hurt????

What about adding Maracyn 2 also? I did use a tetracycline a couple of weeks ago, but noticed that it had expired in Sept 2002.

[famman]

If your tetracycline had expired I do suggest a round of maracyn two in addition to the maracyn. Do a big water change first. As for treating for parasites I might wait until the antibiotic couse is finished and watch for improvement. I confess I have limited knowledge on parasites, still studying.
I do think that the gravel is the ultimate source of your problems.
good luck
:)

[WaterBaby]

I don't know if my Cory is getting better, but he is sure looking a little "sunken" in the gut.

He has not been eating. Is there anything I can do to stimulate his eating? I must note that his barbels are "gone". I think I read somewhere that they need these to look or smell food.

[famman]

They can eat without them, but they cannot breed without them. I fear for your cory, I'm afraid he wont make it.
sorry
:(

[WaterBaby]

I agree......:( I do not think he'll make it.

Now comes the hard question........... Do I let him go on his own (which is taking forever, it seems, and so sadly), or do I euthanize him?

I think this regime of medicating the tank for this many weeks may not be good for my healthy fish, and do not want to risk their health either.

If and when he goes (and however he goes), I plan on tearing down the tank and cleaning it. I will be getting rid of the large pebbles and replace it with small gravel and a sand patch for my cories.

I am getting another tank from one of my neighbors and plan on maybe doing a quick cycle with a biological starter just to get my fish out of that seemingly toxic tank.

Hopefully whatever is killing my fish will not follow them to this new setup.

[WaterBaby]

He did not make it. I had to help. I feel terrible, but could not let him suffer like he was doing.:(

I am now in the process of tearing down the tank. I already moved all the other fish to a new tank, and they seem to be doing OK so far.

I do have one last question though.. Should I save the bio-wheel (I have an eclipse system) and put it back in the filter when I set up the tank after cleaning, or should I just get another and re-cycle the tank with a new wheel (I'm afraid of whatever germ was in the tank might still be in the bio-wheel.

I do have some bio-spira, and used it in the new tank to do a quick cycle for the transfer of my fish. I could also use it to cycle the one I'm cleaning.

Thank you all for your help with this... Especially Famman :) . It's a learning process ;)

[WaterBaby]

OK, I transferred all the remaining fish into another tank. I've been keeping an eye on one of the red-eyed tetras.

Now it looks as if he's bleeding internally next to all his fins, gills and there's a streak of blood under his belly.

Same mysterious bacterial infection? Anyone have a clue what meds to try next??? Tried Maracyn and Maracyn 2... Did not help.

Or should I just take him out and euthanize him? This is getting ridiculous.:mad: :mad:

[WaterBaby]

Hope you can see it. They're pretty skittish........

[famman]

Looks like bacterial infection of gills. Could also be parasite. I would isolate/quarantine.
I just lost a new albino bristlenose apparantly due to parasites from fish store, I know how you feel. Sorry.
You can buy a 2 1/2 gallon tank for $10, might be worth it for later. Along with a cheap whisper filter a cycled hospital tank saved my baby angelfish, and now they're spawning.
good luck
:)

[SBA]

Hi Waterbaby

Hope things are sorting themselves out?

This is a bit of an aside, but if I read correctly you still have two cories left?

I noticed from the pictures that they are the same as mine. I was sold them as Julii also, but it turns out they are trilineatus. You can tell by the fact that the markings on the head are reticulated on C. trilineatus, whereas on true Julii they are seperate spots.

Apparently these are very often sold incorrectly labelled (i even told my LFS and they said 'no, definitely julii'). True julii are much rarer and are more expensive when found.

Just thought I'd let you know!

[WaterBaby]

I also do not think that mine is a Julli Cory but a trilineatus also. The photos I've seen while surfing planet catfish trying to type my cory point to this. I think that it's a common misidentification.

I have the trilineatus cory and a bronze cory left as well as 2 red eyed tetras, one is questionable.

Which leads me to my next question. I do have another post floating around that journals my moving these fish to another tank.The "New Tank Problems, I Think" subject.

Could this be some kind of ammonia poisoning from the move? I did have some ammonia problems in the new tank while I was cycling with the Bio-Spira. I have read that fish can get hemorraghing from ammonia poisoning. I also stated in the other post that the other red eye had a hemorrhage in his eye. This has cleared up.

Water is as follows: No ammonia, No nitrites, but the pH is around 7.6 to 7.8 (my test card only goes to 7.6 and I think that it's a little higher than that). This pH is the only thing that is different than the tank that they came from. It was 7.0. For some reason, I can't get this tank down.

As far as a quarantine tank goes, this is it. This is the reason I moved all these guys in here. However, it's turning out to be a "waiting to die" tank.