Bloody Parrot.....yea....or.....nay? [Archive]

roper930

12-10-2002, 8:20 AM

Gosh, that's a hard one for me. I bought 2 as Jellybean Painted Parrot Fish not knowing anything about them. I just thought they were too adorable to pass up. I have since realized that mine are regular Bloody Parrots who are yellow/orange in color(These are not dyed, the Jellybean's are....) Tho, I'm really not sure whether I agree w/the creation of the hybrid or not, it definately sickens me how fish are dyed and the torture they are put thru during the process!! :mad: I am glad that my 2 "little" babies didn't have to endure that process!

Beth ;)

TeaPea

12-10-2002, 9:29 AM

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I guess you could say I'm on the fence.

Arctic_Fishery

12-10-2002, 9:33 AM

For those that do not know about the bloody parrot or are unsure about it. Go HERE (http://freshaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa082100a.htm) to learn more about it and read an article.
thank you guys for all the votes.

bettaman

12-10-2002, 9:38 AM

It's a man-made species, correct? Something that shouldn't have been but is. I don't see anything wrong with it, just some cross-breeding.

Arctic_Fishery

12-10-2002, 9:39 AM

why dont you read the article friend and then tell me you see no problem in it......:(

JamisonBWolsh

12-10-2002, 9:56 AM

There is NOTHING wrong with a crossbreed, hybrid, or "man-made" fish. What is wrong is the Technique of dyeing the fish. A very painfull time for the fish. a hybrid fish maybe unnatural in nature. However, we see this done in alot of fish. Fancy guppies, bettas, goldfish, parrots and Recently Flowerhowrns. Many other as well. As long as the "mixture of 2 fishes" does not cause deformities that would causeeating or swimming unbearable..it is fine. Also, if the fishes lifespan is eithor the same or increase, all the better.

Most of the hybrids I am not interested in keeping as a pet. The Flowerhorns are a nice fish and would get that. But it does grow large and probably needs its own 60 gallon tank.

here is a link to flowerhorns
http://www.flowerhorn.com.my/gallery.htm
I just checked that link out. I do not like fish with lumps on their heads..so I guess i dont like ANY crossbreeds..

keely

12-10-2002, 11:22 AM

Blood parrots look pretty deformed until you put them next to fancy goldfish ;)

I don't buy dyed fish because I don't like those sorts of colours, but injecting fish with dye or stripping off the slime coat and giving them dye dips doesn't seem any worse to me than the usual treatment and general short, sad life of most aquarium fish. It's hard to verify how "painful" that is, since fish have a different sort of nervous system from ours. Probably significantly less painful than declawing cats and whacking the tails and parts of ears off dogs.

It's a trade where we buy wild-caught fish who die like flies on the way to the LFS, cheap common fish like guppies, platies and mollies are exterminated in droves by beginner aquarists, large, fast-swimming schooling fish live their lives in ones and twos with hardly enough space to turn around... almost everything that happens to aquarium fish is bad. The number of fish in the trade who actually live a normal lifespan must be less than one in a thousand and they way they die is almost always unpleasant... slowly drying up on the rug, stewing in ammonia, suffocating, boiling, having fins chewed off, poisoned with medication, succumbing to ich, well you get the picture. So you have a nice tank of fish who are healthy and cared for... it's still your dollars that supports a trade that kills and tortures more fish than it ever helps. The breeding of freaks is only a tiny part of that trade.

One thing about blood parrots, I rarely see them mentioned in "my fish is sick" posts, they cost enough to make them poor starter fish, and their owners seem to adore them and take care of them. If I was going to start on a crusade against fish cruelty, blood parrots would be far down my list. They have it better than most. Just my 2 cents.

dex_rodriguez

12-10-2002, 11:27 AM

nay......

i would love to capture nature in my aquarium...not man's freakshow creation........

roper930

12-10-2002, 11:57 AM

Keely, that is a VERY good point. Well said! :)

Beth

mosammy121

12-10-2002, 12:15 PM

i've had "biggie"my blood parrot for 3yrs now,i bought him(like some others)w/out knowing what was involved in "creating"them,but that proly wouldn't have stopped me;) NOW if the question was dye fish? yea or nay then id have to say nay :)

http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL127/743577/1376481/16033526.jpg

Hootchieman

12-10-2002, 12:51 PM

I acquired three parrots when I bought my tank. I probably would not have bought them otherwise. I think they are interesting fish and enjoy their antics, but do not believe in "manufacturing" fish. For a cichlid, I have found them to be quite tolerable of other fish and have worked well in my community tank. I agree with Keely though in that there are other issues (injecting dye, etc.) that should be dealt with first.

Arctic_Fishery

12-10-2002, 3:58 PM

I dont have any grudges against the fish...i hope people buy them so they can have a good life...but im against the people that created them....it would be one thing to create a normal fish, but to create something with deformities...and a bladder deformity, also a spine deformity which increases the swimming difficulty......with all of that taken in it sickens me.....also the dyeing process.....i absolutely hate that they do that...but hey, in america it's all about the "Money".....right....also dex....good response bro...i whole heartidly agree with you.

Darkangel

12-10-2002, 4:57 PM

As contreversial as this topic is I feel I need to respond. Much of what has been said in some of these posts is wrong. First off Arctic_Fishery you can not ask for peoples opinions then when they give it ask them to read such and such and ask them if they still see things the same. That was there opinion which you asked for. JamisonBWolsh, none of the fish you mentioned are hybrids with the possible exception of the goldfish but that is an answer lost in history, and of course the Flowerhorn is a hybrid. All the rest are the way they look through selective breeding which is a lot different then hybridizing. keely, while much of what you say about the fish trade used to be true, much of it is no longer. A very large majority, approaching 80% actually, of all fish sold are captive bred. Mostly odd balls and african cichlids are wild caught. Note I said most and not all. Unfortunatly you are very right about the treatment they recieve at the hands of new fish keepers. I am not slamming anybody here I am just pointing out some of the mistakes posted here. Personally I do not like these fish. I think they are ugly. On that note I am not terribly fond of fancy goldfish either. However the difference there is that one was an accident and one was on purpose. The fancy goldfish were developed by selective breeding from fish that were born with abnormalities. The parrot is the result of a purposeful breeding. However I always say to each there own and if you like them, more power to you.

Serrateeth_2002

12-10-2002, 8:31 PM

I say yea,there is no use of saying not to buy these fishes,they are worldwide and many people had them,might as well join in and get these fishes,here,i can make money from them.

Arctic_Fishery

12-10-2002, 8:56 PM

i never no one shouldn't buy the fish im simply saying do you agree on the creation....and dark angel your right i am asking your guy's opinion...and all i did was put the article in there incase people didnt know or if they were just voting yea or no just to vote......its all cool....:)

JamisonBWolsh

12-10-2002, 9:08 PM

DARKANGEL: Not to invalidate your claim. But your actually mistaken. Or perhaps I am? If you take one guppy from one part of an area and then you breed it with another guppy from a whole different area (would never have met in real life). Wouldnt that make the offspring a HYBRID of the 2? Man created. Same thing with bettas...

1 fish 2 fish

12-10-2002, 9:30 PM

You need to differentiate between crossing different species of fish, in the blood parret's case, a red devil and severum, or what ever it is, to create a different species of fish. And breeding different fish of the same species, guppies, angels, swordtails, and discus, to produce color variations, and bring out different traits.

Serrateeth_2002

12-10-2002, 9:48 PM

JamisonBWolsh-those aren't hybrids,more like line bred fishes for its colours and finnage like those found in showfishes,these debates on showfishes has happened before
You should have remebered about showfishes

But i wonder how they make mutant batches like tailess flowerhorns and bubble eye goldfishes,are they similar to dying a fish

tyler

12-10-2002, 9:51 PM

i think they're kind of ugly...

Darkangel

12-10-2002, 10:07 PM

Nope, that does not classify as a hybrid in the definition of the word. A hybred is the resulting offspring from the mating of two closely related members of the same family but not the same species. Like crossing a horse and a donkey. Breeding an apolosa to a paint is not a hybrid though. Also like a lion and tiger which produce an animal called a liger. Most, not all but most, hybreds end up as sterile animals. All the guppies are just very selectivly bred specimens of Poecilia or Lebistes (depends on whose theory you buy) reticulatus. Had you said swords or mollies you would have been right. Almost all captive bred swords and platies have some DNA from the other species. That is how all the different colours where developed to a large part in that fish. Captive mollies on the other hand a are mish mash of 2,3 or 4 different species of molly. Breeding different geoligical populations of the same species is not hybridizing. Hybreds do also appear in nature. On a fairly consistant basis in wild swords and platies and saltwater angels to name a few. This is part of the process of evolution and speciesization. Thats kinda long winded I guess but I like this topic. Sorry for the running on. Later.

goldfries

12-11-2002, 5:01 AM

i'm not a supporter of owning hybrids, however there's nothing we can do as people have their preferences. people from where i come from rear LH and BP for the superstitious beliefs mostly.

and i disagree with the statement from

JamisonBWolsh - "DARKANGEL: Not to invalidate your claim. But your actually mistaken. Or perhaps I am? If you take one guppy from one part of an area and then you breed it with another guppy from a whole different area (would never have met in real life). Wouldnt that make the offspring a HYBRID of the 2? Man created. Same thing with bettas... "

it's not a matter of area.

blood parrot is a hybrid, it's a mixture of 2 different types of fish.
there is no original blood parrot on this planet. it came from 2 things and ended up being a 3rd. it's like an A + B = C thingy.

there's no BP+BP=BP here, it's ?? + ?? = BP.

guppies, bettas, goldfish, oscars...........these fish may have new coloration and form, however they're formed by years and years of inbreeding. the production is A+A=A only with maybe different color.

Neither did the Bettas mate with Gouramis nor did the Guppy with other Livebearers.

Take the guppy for example, the male maybe red, the female may be a yellow snake-skin and the off-spring could be a mixture. Look if a dark-skin human and a fair skin human mate, you don't call their mixed looked kids a Hybrid, right? (no offense, just an example.)

for more info concerning Hybrids, please visit
this site (http://www.sydneycichlid.com/flowerhorn.html).

oh by the way, just in case if you want to know how the made tail-less Blood Parrots and Flowerhorns..... their tails were snipped off then they're small. believe it or not, i've seen tail-less oscar!!!

Serrateeth_2002

12-11-2002, 9:36 AM

i guess i was right about being similar to dying,goldfries is right,flowerhorns are fertile hybrids becaus the fishes that made these fishes were from the same family,they are closely related resulting a new fertile species,parrots on the other,not sure about their parents but parrots+parrots=nothing for most cases,not all hybrids are man made,some animals in the wild crossbred by coincidence.

goldfries

12-11-2002, 12:24 PM

well, after reading your post i think there might be a flaw in my analogy.

when i said "there's no BP+BP=BP here, it's ?? + ?? = BP." i think it's better put as XX + YY = BP. i think recent BPs are able to mate.

the case for LH(flowerhorns) would be different

XX + YY = LH, but LH + LH = LH. get the formula? the origins of LH are from other cichlids, however LH is able to mate with LH to produce more LH.

however i believe that the process of
(LH + LH) is equivalent to (XX + YY) + (XX + YY), that's why you can end up with baby LHs.

another proven fact that they are hybrids, is that they don't have scientific names which scientists used to catalog fish species.

well those of you who own BPs or LHs, you don't have to throw them away. Whether they're hybrids or not, whether we like them or not, most importantly you take good care of your fish regardless of their origins.

:D

Tiger15

12-11-2002, 1:21 PM

There are numerous BP threads before. Let me set this straight. BP has never been proven to be hybrid, only a rumor. In a TPH article a couple years ago, a logical deduction is that BP is likely a deformed mutant, similar to balloon Molly, fancy gold fish, black veil angels . . .etc. Fish hybrid are often fertile, mutant often not. The recessive genes that make BP bloody red and deformed also turn them infertile, because two recessive genes pair up is fatal. Fish hybrid, on the other hand, are typically fertile and even show hybrid vigor. Many live bearers and Firehorn are fertile hybrid. Severim is from SA and Red Devel from CA and the chance of successfully hybridizing CA and SA cichlids is remote. The Synspillum/Red Devel hybrid rumor has better credibility because both are CA. Blue Dampsey is another deformed mutant that are infertile, but can cross with regular Dampsey so can BP with regular Red Devel. BTW, Red Devel in the trade isn't a natural fish, but an unintentional hybrid of Midas and Labiatus over many years of line breeding.

goldfries

12-11-2002, 7:14 PM

hrrmm........ but
-can you find BPs in the wild?
-do they have a scientific name?
-if they are deformed mutant, what does the original one look like?
-even if a deformed mutant it would have a scientific name for it, wouldn't it?

as for me, i consider a fish is not a hybrid as long as they maintain their original form from the wild and not a result of mixing 2 different types of fish.

i don't consider goldfish a hybrid but i do consider them to be a mutant definitely as they've mutated far beyond their original looks. ehehe, i like the red cap orandas and ryukins.

but again my emphasis is that whether they're hybrids or not, whether we like them or not, most importantly we take good care of our fish regardless of their origins.

Aquafreak

12-11-2002, 8:27 PM

Nay! Can't stop mistaking them for goldfish.

Aquafreak

cacti

12-11-2002, 8:29 PM

my vote, no, dont believe in creating deformed fish. :eek:

Tightdog1

12-11-2002, 9:27 PM

yucky!

tuthelimit

12-11-2002, 10:24 PM

Well, I have always been against BPs... I'm sure many people have read my posts.

I don't feel like going off on why BPs are terrible, haha.

The more thinking and reading I have been doing the more Tiger15's idea of the mutant makes sense. However, there are arguements for both sides.

Supporting Mutants:
This fish has a very weird body shape. Odd at best, their lips sometimes are so deformed they look shut! This is something one would expect to see in a deformed fry. A few of my african cichlid fry look funky, some have one eye or wierd faces. I destroy those to promote the distribution of healthy fish. BPs kind of remind me of a grown out, mutant.

No one has come up with a formula for the BP. All of it is speculation and such, guessing at possible crosses. Every lfs, gets them from 'some place' no one can remember. Its very sketchy. I mean, SOME hobbiest would have come up with it by now!

Reasons it could be a hybrid:
If it is a some super cross coming out of Asia (4 or 5 different fish involved). I wouldn't expect the breeders to tip their hand. People buy these **** things like hot cakes. That being said, it would be hard to recreate a super cross at least not by luck.

If this fish was a mutant, how is it being produced in LARGE numbers?
I am trying to think of another example of this. In the herp world, the "blizzard lizard" was a result of just random luck. The siblings were bred back to the parents and that line was formed. Now the price is dropping and they are becoming more popular. That info is from back when I bred leopard geckos, so I don't know how accurate it is now. :o

All Blood parrots would have to come from the same line of freak Midas/Devil parents. A lot of board members breed RDs and none have reported mutant babies.

That would led me to believe either there is one pair of fish which produces more than a few 'mutants' per batch of fry. OR ...it is a very complicated cross.

Hahah, I hope some of that made sense. My biggest problem with the BPs and FHs etc. is if they catch on to the SUPER mainstream, fish breeders will start focusing on breeding them to meet the popularity. They have limited breeding facilaties and we will see less of this fish we used to see and more of these freaks. Who knows, Oscars could be a thing of the past... haha that will be the day.

ttl

Tiger15

12-11-2002, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by tuthelimit
All Blood parrots would have to come from the same line of freak Midas/Devil parents. A lot of board members breed RDs and none have reported mutant babies.

That would led me to believe either there is one pair of fish which produces more than a few 'mutants' per batch of fry. OR ...it is a very complicated cross.

Hahah, I hope some of that made sense. My biggest problem with the BPs and FHs etc. is if they catch on to the SUPER mainstream, fish breeders will start focusing on breeding them to meet the popularity. They have limited breeding facilaties and we will see less of this fish we used to see and more of these freaks. Who knows, Oscars could be a thing of the past... haha that will be the day.

ttl

Actually, mutant Red Devel that resemble BP had been produced in Florida fish farm long time ago but they were trashed. The Asians propagate them, not for their deformity, but for the intense red that come with the deformity. The newer generation of BP have normal mouth that looks like an intensely red and short Midas. I bet it is cross back with normal RD.

You concern that the freak will take over the original breed has already been occuring in many ornamental fish. All live bearers in the trade are hybrid, mutant or line breed that are different from the wild. Red Oscar has replaced the wild type in the trade. No one breeds the wild type Angels or Discus, only the hybrid and line breed varieties. Wild short fin betta Splender are never available in store, only the long veil strain. Even the Red Devel isn't pure, but contaminated hybrid of two species. Ornamental fish is for fun and whichever is more appealing and sellable will inevitably become the main stream.

Serrateeth_2002

12-11-2002, 11:26 PM

I don't know about that,i can still find short finned bettas and not very colourful guppies,this is because they are caught,feral but wild species.The parents of BP are hybrids themselves unlike flowerhorns,no wonder they are infertile,unlike flowerhorns

goldfries

12-12-2002, 2:45 AM

"Wild short fin betta Splender are never available in store, only the long veil strain. "

LOL. not where i come from. i get to find any Betta I want, cept for halfmoons and those nice crown tails.

whatever....

Oscars(regardless of color) are not Hybrid. Neither are long tailed Bettas. Neither are guppies. goldfish? IMHO neither are they, just that they have evolved the most in comparison to other fish in the world (how did 1 type of goldfish end up with so many type? haha)

"If this fish was a mutant, how is it being produced in LARGE numbers? " - TTL

boy i sure like the sentence from TTL's posting. this sentence hits it just right. do we need to watch more X-Men? let's say Jean Grey and Cyclops have a baby (did they have yet? i'm not updated in the story).... what power would it have?

comics aside, i believe hybrids are here to stay whether we like it or not. i don't like them either. have you people seen blue parrots and green parrots? i'll try to get a pic of them when i can. i've seen a farm here have them in stock before.

but again my emphasis is that whether they're hybrids or not, whether we like them hybrids or not, most importantly we take good care of our fish irregardless of their origins.

btw, somebody correct my grammer here, should it be "regardless" or "irregardless"? i mean to say we should take good care of our fish no matter how they were created.

my apologies to all those who misunderstood my statement due to my error in usage of words.

Tiger15

12-12-2002, 7:44 AM

Goldfries, from where you live you can catch wild Betta from the pond and I love to see some for sale here. All long veiled fish are handicaped mutant that won't be able to escape from predation in the wild.

"Regardless" is the right word, not "Irregardless."

"All live bearers in the trade are hybrid, mutant or line breed" means that live bearers can be one of the three but not necessarily hybrid. For example, red swordtail is a hybrid of Red Platy and wild Green Swordtail. Fancy guppies are pure breed line bred strains. Swallow Tail Molly and Hi Fin Platy are mutant. There are so many hybrids and line bred strains among Platy, Variatus and Molly that it is impossible to find pure strain today. Red Oscar is not a hybrid but selective line breed 30 years ago in Singapore.

Lila

12-12-2002, 10:18 AM

I don't really care for these fish. I did buy two jbparrots for my daughter, and yes, I knew how they came to be. I personally didn't like them, but, it was her present and she really wanted them. We take good care of them, and their colors have changed from what they were originally.

They have gotten bigger, and the colors prettier. I have come to like them more. I will not buy anymore of them, cuz I don't agree with the dying. Hybrids...depends how the fish looks. More so if done naturally than by man.

But each to his own. Some people like them, so don't.

tuthelimit

12-12-2002, 10:18 AM

Tiger15
Im not disagreeing with you at all. I was not aware of the "new" BP. I am aware of the ornamental fish trade. It was never a huge concern of mine because I keep cichlids. Very hypocritical I know. Now the problem is greater and once common fish are very rare.

ttl

hollyatkinson

12-12-2002, 2:41 PM

lets face it guys these beautiful creatures have already been bred (cross bred that is) and there is nothing we can do about that nor is it their fault, in my opinion they all deserve a good home whether we agree with the creation of them or not. I have 3 and I love them.

So I guess If you are really against them don't buy them but they will still be created anyway so why not give them a loving home and a chance.

I do not however agree with the dying of fish, I think that is cruel punishment to put any living creature through, and blood parrots need not be dyed because as you can see they will become a beautiful color on their own once they reach adulthood..

Look at it this way: If a purebred persian cat was bred with a domestic wouldn't the kittens deserve a loving and caring home??

goldfries

12-12-2002, 11:44 PM

again my emphasis is that whether they're hybrids or not, whether we like them hybrids or not, most importantly we take good care of our fish irregardless of their origins.

by the way, have you people seen it? do you people want to see it? there's quite a number of them here. since i am getting a digicam soon i thought i'd offer to snap some weird fish to show.

from the country where LH comes from (estimated 95% - in terms of quatity - of the fish sold here are LHs.) and available in many many types of beautiful markings........i think the people just one day thought "hey let's make BP look like LH too." and Voila! There i saw LH marked BPs.

Serrateeth_2002

12-13-2002, 2:43 AM

Same here,it is like a trend,you can get addicted and prepare to empty your wallet but when this fish is popular,other popular fish get their price lowered,full grown red aros for $3500,cheap for a red aro

gutterguppy

12-13-2002, 4:26 PM

Is a hybrid fish, like the blood parrot, really that much different from a mule? Society in general seems to have crossbreeding as acceptable when it creates an animal more suited to a specific purpose. Does that make it unacceptable when the animal is crossbread for asthetic reasons?

Serrateeth_2002

12-13-2002, 10:18 PM

No,these fishes are created out of superstitious belief and their colour.

goldfries

12-14-2002, 7:12 AM

Serrateeth_2002 did not finish the sentence i believe.

"No,these fishes are created out of superstitious belief and their colour."

yes, but main reason is $$$$$$$.
some making them, truly out of superstition, color and beliefs.
but most are making them for the $$$$$$$, that they know they can earn a lot from people who truly believe in superstition, color and beliefs.

you can just make a deal with the some feng shui master and tell them to tell a superstitious person that he needs to buy a $50k LH from your store and chances are he'll probably buy it if you mention that not doing so will involve in some form of tragedy.

heck most times you don't need a feng shui guy, they just look at the markings and color on the fish and they'll just splash their cash on the fish.

would u buy a LH for like 10k? LHs here range from 1.5k to 40k and more (not converted to USD yet. ;) )

i'm not willing to spend that much for a fish......... it's like a really unstable investment. 1 mistake with the fish and you lose your cash overnight.