What to do if Ich not cured in 5 days

[longhorn]

I am use Maracide to cure Ick in one of my tanks. The instruction says I should apply the suggested dose for five consecutive days. I am in my third days now and have seen any sign of improvement. Just wondering what should I do after 5 days if the fishs still not show signs of improvement. Keep the same dose for 5 more days? or switch to another treatment?

Thanks for any advice.

[AsahiToro]

Have you raised the temp any? Using any salt? I'm not fond of meds in my tanks. You may want to try the salt/higher temp route with some water changes mixed in there. Do a search here, there are a lot of threads to explain and help with ich. HTH,

Scott

[wetmanNY]

The higher the temp the faster the Ich life cycle unfolds. Depending on the heat tolerance of your fishes, crank it up to 86oF.

[longhorn]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have tried med/salt combination to treat them. It seems they are showing signs of improvement.

A related question. When to terminate the treatment? I read from somewhere that even when the white spots dissapear from the fish, Ick can still alive in the water. Should I continue the treatment with reduced dose for couple more days once the white stuff is off my fishs?

[josh]

I'm having pretty much the same problem, and I'd like to try salt treatment. I searched and didn't find much on it. How did you treat your tank with salt?

-Josh

[beviking]

You'll see this again I'm sure...
skepticalaquarist.com

Yes you should continue treatment after seeing no signs, three days after seeing no signs is sufficient as long as your temp is at least 80. Do NOT reduce the dose! One of the troubles with ich is that it can attach to the gills and you won't be able to see it. General recommendation is treat for 6-10 days (some say at least 14 days) and as long as the temp is up, you should see improvements by day 3. Good luck!

[longhorn]

Thanks for the suggestion. However, i have a cat and a pleco in the tank. I was told I should reduce dose for those scaless babies.

Any commnents.

By the way, Ich is gone from the fins on the fourth day, but I am giving a half dose starting the fifth day. Now is the sixth day.

Thanks!

[beviking]

Yes, use a reduced dosage for sensitive fish, just don't reduce the dose again after "x" days. Whatever dose you were using, stick with that. I thought you were asking if you should reduce the dosage again. Hope this is a little clearer.:)

[keely]

I like malachite green/formalin products, which are the best tried-and-true effective ich meds in my opinion. No raised temperature, no salt, no combining different treatments. Doesn't hurt the biofilter or plants and I've used it on both kuhli loaches and cardinal tetras at the "normal dose" (per gallon of actual tank water, not per gallon of advertised tank volume) with no deaths though I would try a half dose first if you have sensitive fish. UV light is said to degrade malachite green rather quickly so I dose at lights-off. 50% water change before each dose.

Raising the temperature to "speed up the life cycle" has to be balanced against the additional stress of reducing oxygen content in the water, considering ich tends to affect the gills heavily before spots even appear on the body and breathing can be hard enough under those circumstances. It should NOT be used with preparations containing formalin as formalin reduces oxygen still further, though people like to do this anyway.

I have not used Maracide and the ingredients aren't familiar to me so I don't know whether 5 days with no improvement is normal for that medication. It would not be normal for the meds I use. Hopefully someone who uses it can advise you... switching meds should be a last resort.

[beviking]

Originally posted by keely


Raising the temperature to "speed up the life cycle" has to be balanced against the additional stress of reducing oxygen content in the water, considering ich tends to affect the gills heavily before spots even appear on the body and breathing can be hard enough under those circumstances. It should NOT be used with preparations containing formalin as formalin reduces oxygen still further, though people like to do this anyway.


Valid points keely, however, I don't think for most of us, oxygen content is so critical that we need to worry about warmer vs. cool water regarding oxygen capacity. Generally, we're talking 5, maybe 10 degrees difference. Same goes with formalin. For each 5ppm of formalin (most dosages use 25ppm) 1ppm of oxygen is removed in about 36 hours. So for a treatment at 25ppm, 5ppm of oxygen is removed. If your tank is around 8ppm oxygen then you're down to 3 right...no, b/c oxygen exchange is occuring all the time. It is replenished as it is lost, so not much to worry about there.
Just wanted to clarify.

[Kit Walker]

From what I gather, ick cures don't actually kill the ick on the fish but destroy the next larval stage to break the cycle. So maybe this takes more than 5 days. Eventually when the ick on the fish dies (not sure how long) their larval won't take over and the epidemic stops. I'd continue the treatment though for a few days to be sure. If it doesn't work, maybe you'll have to put the fish into a hospital tank without the scaless fish, so you can hit them with a full dose.

[keely]

Originally posted by beviking


Valid points keely, however, I don't think for most of us, oxygen content is so critical that we need to worry about warmer vs. cool water regarding oxygen capacity. Generally, we're talking 5, maybe 10 degrees difference. Same goes with formalin. For each 5ppm of formalin (most dosages use 25ppm) 1ppm of oxygen is removed in about 36 hours. So for a treatment at 25ppm, 5ppm of oxygen is removed. If your tank is around 8ppm oxygen then you're down to 3 right...no, b/c oxygen exchange is occuring all the time. It is replenished as it is lost, so not much to worry about there.
Just wanted to clarify.

Excellent clarification! Thanks for that info :) Although I would suspect that raising the temperature would also raise the fish's metabolism, causing it to require even more oxygen than normal, no? I just don't see it as necessary or making the disease any less stressful on the fish.... if x number of parasites are going to affect the fish before the meds do their job, whether the parasites go through life at warp speed shouldn't affect how much damage they do... they just do the same damage faster.

It might make aquarists happier watching everything happen faster. People should do whatever they're most comfortable with and whatever has worked well for them in the past, obviously :)

I reckon the best treatment for ich is "any treatment" started at the first sign of symptoms. It's so easy to cure (with any of the usual methods) early in the disease that it's a shame people still lose fish to this disease.

[beviking]

Making it all happen faster has several advantages.
The life cycle occurs quicker and exposes the free swimming tomites to meds quicker (that is obvious) but over several days, it is possible to quell the infestation. Thus you use less meds and do fewer water changes, which is less stressful on the fish.

I agree with you that "People should do whatever they're most comfortable with..." and if something has worked before it most likely will work again. There are many roads to the same destination! :)

BTW - increasing the fishs metabolism also allows the fish to regenerate its slime coating quicker.

[longhorn]

Folks,

Once I treat my tank for ick, how soon can I add new fish to the tank again? Or in another word, how long should I wait before I can make sure all the ick parasite is gone from my tank?

In term of the treatment, can the treated fish immune from ick in the future?

Thanks!

FZ

[beviking]

Your fish have been stressed from the parasite and the treatment. Let a week go pass before adding any more fish. During that week, test your water to make sure you didn't inadvertantly kill off any beneficial bacteria in your filter and cause a mini-cycle. If you experience a mini-cycle, wait until it is finished to add more fish.
Is the second question - can treated fish become immune from ich in the future? I've heard (read) suggestions that this can happen, but ich is a parasite and I don't believe fish can become immune to them.

[wetmanNY]

I'd be even more cautious than beviking. I'd figure the whole exposed tank was now in quarantine mode. I wouldn't add any fish to any tank, though, unless they'd been through a month's quarantine.

It's a whole lot easier to deal with these parasites in quarantine. Fishes take a long time to dispel medications from their liver. A repeat of Ich because other inhabitants are infested could be lethal to a fish still clearing medication.

Yes, there are signs that formerly-infested fish develop a degree of resistance to Ich. Not immunity though.

[Sumpin'fishy]

I had alot of disease problems when I first got into the hobby, and I did ALOT of research on diseases. Learned alot by experience, too! I know most of us have had some kind of experience with ich, and we have all heard of different ways to beat it. My suggestions are based on what I consider to be a conservative, "make sure" method. Ich life-cycle is known to be 3 weeks at 70 degrees and 5 days at 80 degrees. They have 3 stages to their lives: 1)adult on fish 2)immature, free swimming 3)spores eggs in substrate. The spores and infesting adults are immune to treatments, the free swimming form is not immune (so this is what we treat). The trick is to keep destroying the free-swimming form until there are no more of the other forms left alive, either, due to normal life cycle.

I suggest raising temp to 80 to 82 degrees, and add 1Tbsp per 5 gal of Salt. Know if you have sensitive fish and act accordingly. Just for record, my pleco gets full dosage and acts just fine. The salt will ease osmotic pressure on the lungs and allow more easily the flow of oxygen to fish. Add recommended dose of treatment to fish, using quarantine tank if possible. I use Quick Cure, but hate how it stains silicone of the tank (this is also one reason why I prefer quarantine tank). I would treat for 2 weeks at this temp, just to be careful. It has been noted that occasionally cysts will go into a dormant stage and not spawn the free swimming form until more time has elapsed. For this reason, I double the time it takes to cure. Better safe than sorry. Also I would slowly drop the temp back to it's original level (about 2 degrees/day. I would not introduce ANY new fish before a month, just to give everything a chance to stabilize, and give you a chance to watch recovery process without additional stress. Finally NEVER add new fish without first quarantining them for at LEAST 2 weeks. Hope your fish make it through OK!

[longhorn]

Thanks Sumpin'fishy!

That is a very insigntful analysis. One more question, if you treat your fish in qurantine then how long should you wait before introduce them back to their old homes? Can ick stay domant within the body of fishs?

Thanks!

FZ

[beviking]

Good point wetman. My advise was given assuming that ich in the tank was gone and any fish added would be quarantined and therefor ich-free also.

So longhorn, if you haven't gathered this yet, you would be well off to get (if you don't already have) a quarantine tank, which is a small tank to keep newly aquired fish in so you can observe them to make sure they are disease/parasite free.

Sumpin - my sources (Fish Hatchery Mngmnt, Diseases of Hatchery Fish, and Intro to Fish Health Mngmnt) say 3-4 days at 75 degrees for ich. Are you sure about 5 days at 80? These are older publications -early 90's so maybe they're outdated?:confused:

[Lila]

I have to ask if any of you have heard this:

I had read in an article at another forum, when I first started keeping fish, that ich is ALWAYS around. That it lives in healthy fish. That it only surfaces from stress and injuries. Has anyone else heard this?

[Sumpin'fishy]

I would wait at least 2 weeks after I saw the last symptoms to add back to the main tank. So if ich is visually cured the first week, I'd wait out 3 weeks to 4 (better) to add back. I also like the salt dip ideas, but haven't really used them often. I have never heard of adult ich staying dormant within the skin of fish.

Beviking, I have read hundreds of posts on diseases and treatments. The ones that seemed most insightful I used as starting points and applied my (agreed meager) logic to get what I believe is a safe way to treat certain diseases. The only thing I've read about ich that said 2 to 4 days was that they cleared up or "kills" in that time. My bottle of Quick Cure says 2 days! WHATEVER!! I usually lose visual symptoms within this time (2-4 days) but I know that there are still juvenile ich in the gravel and microscopic spores in the water. Most of the "quality" articles I've read said to treat about 1 to 2 weeks. I have found this to work. Most conservative disease treatments within a quarantine tank say 3 to 4 weeks of confinement. I have in the past tried to rush success, only to have re-lapses! It gets worse the second time! You also NEVER want any parasite/pathogen to get any immunity to the medicine you are using. If you let them survive one battle with a certain med, it's very difficult to be successful with it in the future. The prolonged treatments also wear down your fish.

[OrionGirl]

Lila--this is a myth. Ich doesn't lurk in fish all the time. It may be around in a few fish for a limited time period, but all fish and all tanks are not infected. True, fish that are stressed suffer worse infestations than other fish--but they must be exposed to the parasite to become infected. The problem is that in the aquarium, the fish are basically a captive buffet for the parasites, so get worse infections than wild fish would. So, a wild caught fish might have a mild infestation that turns major in confinement, or an infected fish introduces it to a tank, but it is NOT in your tank all the time.

I've never had ich in my main tank. I've had temp drops, ect that stressed the fish, and had wounds pop up that stressed them, but I've never had ich show up. Thus the power of a q-tank!

[beviking]

Oh boy...

Sumpin' - I question the time lapse of ich life cycle, NOT treatment time. Personally, I treat all new fish for ich (regardless of signs) for 7 days and haven't had a reinfestation. Salt dips for ich don't work. The encysted ich is under the fish's skin, that's why we treat for several days, to kill the hatched tomites.

Lila, I too heard that ich is "always in tanks" and it is not true! Ich is a host specific parasite. When a host is present, it feeds, grows, and reproduces. I think the dormancy idea was sprung because ich can take weeks to complete this cycle at lower temps. Anyway, if fish are healthy, they can keep the majority of infesting tomites at bay. Only 1 tomite needs to attach to the fish, grow, and reproduce to produce 1000's more offspring and if only 1 of those is able to attach to the fish, the cycle goes on. It's when the fish become stressed that many of the offspring can attach to the fish and result in casualties if left untreated. Hence the illusion that ich was dormant.

[Sumpin'fishy]

Yea, Lila, I've read some articles saying that also. This is why I don't believe everything I've read. I read to get peoples opinions and experiences. About half (at best) of what I've read has some real truth to it. I know alot of people who jump to a conclusion to quickly and call it facts. I try to weigh all the articles together and look at what is a common experience, back that up with what I've personally seen happen, and finally experiment based on those findings. Most people will find that they can adapt any treatment to suit their own needs/likings. I believe it's very important to KNOW YOUR FISH. Not just the species, but your OWN fish. Each has it's own quirks, so get to know them.

[Sumpin'fishy]

I agree Beviking, and I understood you weren't questioning the treatment time. I'm just trying to answer a few questions in one post;) I also agree that alot of the "dormant" theory is probably based on incomplete treatments that have a re-lapse. I was just letting it be known what I have read and it is a possibility. I don't know all the answers, so I treat conservatively, hoping to nuke every last one of them without harming my fish in the process.

To me it's better to treat steadily for 2 weeks, than to treat one 1 week, and miss a few of them. By the time the meds have cleared up in the water and fish are just starting to rest, you have a full outbreak again. so now you are at 2 weeks of stress and starting the process all from scratch. Fish are weaker, ich has a chance to get "used" to the medication, and you are going bald from personal stress! At this point most people blame their meds, saying they don't work. They end up switching meds and causing more problems than good sometimes.

My idea is to compile all the "reasonable" info you can, decide what you are going to do, and stick with that. Be conservative, and patient. Watch closely what is happening during treatment and LEARN from your experience. Mistakes are only tragedies when we don't learn from them.

[beviking]

AMEN!!! And nicely explained I might add. I never begrudge anyone for being conservative! On the other hand, I don't want my fish exposed to chems longer than necessary. But then, if you don't get them all (ich), then you treat again and do just what you're trying to prevent. It's a viscious circle but I think I've broke it. Though I've only been in the hobby 2+years, I've been treating fish for 10. Hence, my less conservative approach. That isn't to say that I have all the answers either!

[Sumpin'fishy]

Well Longhorn, we hope our experiences have given you some good ideas about how you will "finish" treatment on your fish. I sure hate seeing mine get ill (I haven't in a long time now), so I feel for ya! We all hope you get this over with and I sure hope you remember your experience, as this will be YOUR basis for future treatments. Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

[longhorn]

Thank you all so much, folks!

Best,

FZ

[Lila]

Hey, thanks for clearing that up about the ick constantly existing in the fish. I appreciate it.;)

[beviking]

Originally posted by Sumpin'fishy
Well Longhorn, we hope our experiences have given you some good ideas about how you will "finish" treatment on your fish. I sure hate seeing mine get ill (I haven't in a long time now), so I feel for ya! We all hope you get this over with and I sure hope you remember your experience, as this will be YOUR basis for future treatments. Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

DITTO!!!:)