View Full Version : New to FW,just a few ??? on a good set up
Hello AC
I am new to fresh water but have had a salt water now for a few years,what I would like to do is start off with a 29 gallon tank,so if you was to set up this new tank what would ya use along the line of filtration,substrate,lighting.......ect ect
Just want to make sure I get off on the right track if a know what I mean :) ,I would like to keep this tank as natural as I can
thank for all the help
What sort of fish do you think you would like to keep. That will probably determine your filtration needs as certain fish (plecos etc...) make huge amounts of waste and need massive filtration. On the other hand a tank of neon tetras will not need nearly as much.
The other big question is do you want live plants? I assume yes as you mention natural tank. But if you want a tank of cichlids then plants may not be the way to go.
scott
07-19-2003, 10:20 PM
As far as filtration I would go with an AC 300. An emperor 280 is what I have on mine but you can read some of my frustration with it in the Penguin v. Emperor thread in DIY. It is also a good filter though. Substrate, Flourite for plants, whatever you want if not. In freshwater you "generally" use just tapwater without alteration so it is best to determine the parameters of your tapwater and then pick fish. Tapwater can be adjusted but it is easier to know beforehand what to expect and pick the fish accordingly.
What sort of fish do you think you would like to keep.
just some sort of small tetra...mabe a beta,nothing all that big cause it's onl a 29 gallon
The other big question is do you want live plants?
yes
As far as filtration I would go with an AC 300. An emperor 280 are hang on filters OK in a planted aquarium ??
in m salt tank the only filtration is a skimmer,no hang on filters or canister filter,the tank is based off of natural filtration,no carbon or an of that stuff...
can one have the same type of set up in a fresh water tank ??
can the plants and snails, worms,ect....,do the filtration in place of a carbon based filter ??
just some sort of small tetra...mabe a beta,nothing all that big cause it's onl a 29 gallon
Tetras will nip the fins off of bettas so it is not a good idea to keep them together.
280 are hang on filters OK in a planted aquarium ??
They are okay but I believe an internal cannister style filter is preffered. I don't know to much about plants and I am learning myself. Hopefully someone else will help you out here or you can pose this question in the plant forum.
in m salt tank the only filtration is a skimmer,no hang on filters or canister filter,the tank is based off of natural filtration,no carbon or an of that stuff...
While carbon is not necessary filtration is. I know in planted tanks some people only have the filter on at night though because of the oxygen and CO2 exchanges. Again I am no expert.
Bettas are fine with most tetras, especially if you keep them in groups of 5 or so (the tetras, not the bettas or course). Paradise fish are just as nice as well or if you are concerned then some dwarf gouramis would look nice. If you have a planted tank that will be no problem.
It depends on the plants you want but generally for best growth you will want an aquatic soil like Flourite or the pond soil made by Schultz.
You will need some sort of filter unlike Salt Water. Canister or HOB will work fine on your size tank and as long as you keep the water level high enough there will be minimal distortion to loose CO2, so you will be fine. Carbon wears out in about a week so then it just becomes a great bed for bacteria to grow on. I just rinse out my filter cartridges once a week during water changes to keep the bacteria. Only replace the carbon if you need to get rid of medication in the water.
scott
07-20-2003, 10:24 AM
Tetras will nip the fins off of bettas so it is not a good idea to keep them together.
TKOS is right, I was thinking barbs for some reason. Sorry.
Yes, definatly stay away from the barb family with a betta. You might be able to get away with cherry barbs but then why chance it.
anonapersona
07-20-2003, 1:02 PM
Originally posted by ozzy
What sort of fish do you think you would like to keep.
just some sort of small tetra...mabe a beta,nothing all that big cause it's onl a 29 gallon
The other big question is do you want live plants?
yes
As far as filtration I would go with an AC 300. An emperor 280 are hang on filters OK in a planted aquarium ??
in m salt tank the only filtration is a skimmer,no hang on filters or canister filter,the tank is based off of natural filtration,no carbon or an of that stuff...
can one have the same type of set up in a fresh water tank ??
can the plants and snails, worms,ect....,do the filtration in place of a carbon based filter ??
You can have a non filtered planted fish tank, find a copy of Diana Walstads book, (I don't have the title, I'll locate that -- edit -- Ecology of the Planted Aquarium]) It is based on natural soil, moderate lighting, low fish load. You might need to add mechanical filtration to that.
Another method is the higher light, iron enriched gravel, Co2 added, fertilizer added method. Perhaps more risk of algae and probably more variety of plants available due to the hgiher light.
You'll find more discussion of the more technical aquarium, since there is more to tinker with and thus more to talk about.
as long as you keep the water level high enough there will be minimal distortion to loose CO2,
in time I would add a float switch for my top- off,and speaking of water..is tap water good or would RO water be best ??
They are okay but I believe an internal cannister style filter is preffered
would this be because it would be less disturbing on the water surface ??
aquatic soil like Flourite or the pond soil made by Schultz.
can this be bought on-line,LFS ??
thanks again
As to wether tap or ro it depends on your tap parameters. If they coincide with the fish and are acceptable to you then use it. If not you could use ro but allways in a mix with tap. Yes the canister style will have less surface movement. Flourite can be bought online or at an LFS.
I believe the Schultz Pond Soil can be bought at many WalMarts.
anonapersona
07-20-2003, 4:27 PM
While it is certainly cheaper than Flourite, the Schultz Aquatic Plantsing Soil is very light weight, it is probably OK to mix this in but I wouldn't try to use that exclusively. I've read that people have had trouble keeping plants in the soil using that. I've got some now, for use in the pond, but as the goldfish throw it out of the lillies I end up vacuuming it up and throwing it out. I may try to use some as a base in the next tank I set up, but not much.
The thing about the water disturbance is that if you add CO2 you want still surface to avoid the \co2 escaping and the level in the tank falling to ambient CO2 levels (3 to 5 ppm). If you don't add CO2, the plants will tend to use it up and you may want to have more surface distrubance, maybe even air pumps, to get the tank CO2 back up to ambient levels, as 5 ppm is certanly better than 0.
Now, as I have not read the Walstad book, I don't know where the soil planted aquarium is in this argument. So much CO2 comes from the bacteria in the filter, but much much more bacteria live in natural soil, so the soil itself would be the source of CO2 in the naturally planted tank. I suppose in that case, again, you'd want a still surface, but nice current to distribute the available CO2 to each plant. But, with this arrangement, I don't think that you'd want any sort of bought, baked and sterilized "aquatic soil" -- you'd want real dirt, full of natural bacteria.
OK,we seem to be getting somewhere now..
so what is the very best dirt for a planted aquarium ??
While it is certainly cheaper than Flourite, the Schultz Aquatic Plantsing Soil is very light weight, it is probably OK to mix this in but I wouldn't try to use that exclusively
So mix the two ??and just how deep do we want this bed ??
if you add CO2 you want still surface to avoid the \co2 escaping
is it best to add Co2 ? if so how ?
if you add CO2 you want still surface to avoid the \co2 escaping
would this dirt bed of X inches serve as a filter if seeded somehow ??
the soil itself would be the source of CO2 in the naturally planted tank.
if that is the case then would I need to still add Co2 to my tank,or would that really depend on the plant life in the tank ??
I don't think that you'd want any sort of bought, baked and sterilized "aquatic soil" -- you'd want real dirt, full of natural bacteria.
yes,this is true
I dont just want a fresh water tank with the pink rocks,along with the plastic plants,I want to build a fresh water eco-system.
Everything of course depends on what you want to grow. In my aquariums I grow mostly stem plants so substrate ins't really important. The few plants I grow that need rooting I just put into soil filled pots and bury the pot in the gravel I use.
When you add CO2 you also need to bring up the other levels. This means higher lighting, more fertilizers. Whenever you increase 1 thing you need to increase the others, otherwise you will end up with large algea growths as well as plants.
I would determine where you will be buying your plants (LFS, online store) and then determine how you can make these particular plants flourish. A tank of water sprite will seem to flourish with just adequate lighting. Fox tail is going to need a lot more.
Everything of course depends on what you want to grow.
true,however I am new to the hobby and have no idea what is out there ;)
Whenever you increase 1 thing you need to increase the others,
so just what are good params for a fresh water tank ??I would determine where you will be buying your plants (LFS, online store) and then determine how you can make these particular plants flourish.
very true,this is the point I am at now,do you have a good online store one could buy a plant package from ??
anonapersona
07-20-2003, 8:15 PM
First, what lights do you have?
Light is the key to what you will be able to grow. Light is the fuel that runs this package. The lights you have or will use are going to tell us what sort of things you will be able to grow.
So, before you go too far down the substrate, plants, CO2 road... tell us about your lights.
And your tap water (just in case it is strange), call your water company for a report.
Go to the AGA site to see some of the most beautiful tanks, study the plants, the methods, the hardware.
AGA Showcase (http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/)
First, what lights do you have?
oh the lights,Well what I have laying around that I can toss over it,right now I have a Custom Sealife 65 watt pc hood system,I need to order a now light for it,never the less I can DIY one heck of a light hood for it,whats best ?? MH,NO,PC ,what ever is best for the tank I'll do :)
And your tap water (just in case it is strange), call your water company for a report. if the tap water is a problem I'll just go with RO water,but in the report what do I ask for and look at ??
thanks for ther link,I'll check it out
Good parameters of course will depend on the plants you have.
If you are willing to use soil as a substrate and willing to use CO2 then you can use really high light which allows for any plants you want. If you can have over 3 watts per gallon then you can start keeping high light plants.
But that also might determine your choice of fish as some do not like high light. However, floating plants can help in that case.
You need to look for what they add such as nitrate, phosphate, chloramines etc. It should also tell you if they have been busted by the state for any violations (mine has been twice in the last five years). You can not use straight RO water. Not only does it lack the electrolytes the fish need for proper metabolic and gill function it is very soft and with co2, carbonic acid can cause your ph to plummet over a point in an hour killing everything. Bioacidification can also cause this through the build up of excess waste.
Only a SW guy would have a compact flourescent "just lying around":)
anonapersona
07-20-2003, 9:12 PM
The perfect tank would have 100% Flourite substrate, about 2.5 to 3.5 watts per gallon, 6700K full daylight spectrum, a canister filter with 5xvolume, pressurized CO2 injection (might be too much for this size tank, unless you have a calcium reactor set laying around also!)
The 65 watt PC is perfect. Just over 2 watts per gallon = moderate light.
Now you can go to the plant places and look at low to moderate light plants. Let me switch computers and I'll give you a few sites to look at.
Meanwhile, if you wanted to go to 2.5 watts per gallon or 3.0 watts per gallon, could you put that together from parts on hand?
Take a look at the AGA Showcase, and see what sort of tanks apeal to you. Crowded with colorful plants, the freshwater version of a coral tank, or lush and green. slice of nature?
The sparkle of MH is hard to beat, the Amano tanks often have that, but even 150 watts over 29 gallons is a lot of light. You'd have to be pretty sharp to keep that balanced, or else algae takes off.
The perfect tank would have 100% Flourite substrate,
How did do ya think,in reef we do 4-6 inches
as fare as lighting,how about this pc system (http://www.hellolights.com/242xcofraq2x.html) ,not to bad for a plug & play light,plus it gives me about 4.48 WPG.
You can not use straight RO water. ,this may explane some of the problems I had along time ago with a small FW set up
Only a SW guy would have a compact flourescent "just lying around"
you have no idea LOL:p ,I set up a 20 gallon tank for my sister with stuff just laying around
If you are willing to use soil as a substrate and willing to use CO2 then you can use really high light which allows for any plants you want
so .....mmmmm
soil or flourite ?????
Sorry, when I said soil I was including flourite.
anonapersona
07-20-2003, 10:23 PM
I have 3 to 4 inches of flourite in my 29 gallon. I think that was 3 bags of Flourite. Flourite is better than soil if you might be pulling things up and moving them around. If you will leave it all alone, soil is fine. I decided that as I'm still learning, I was likely to need to move things around, as indeed I have, every few months something is pulled or moved around.
And I disagree with the "soil plus CO2 allows you to grow anything"... CO2 and fertilization allows you to grow anything with enough light, soil is not the "substrate preferred by the experts", Flourite is. Flourite is the best, any other substrate is up for debate, who knows what is in this soil or that soil, enough Iron? too much copper? some sort of chemical that you are not aware of? Flourite is foolproof, it takes the substrate out of the equation.
Find your way to the AGA showcase and see what the entries there use. Find the Aquatic Plant Digest and see what they recommend when asked.
Aquatic Plants mailing List (http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/)
2 x 65 is too much -- gonna be an algae machine too easily. Especially with the reef type bulbs those usually come with, wrong spectrum, too blue, too high K.
1 x 65 is about right if you can get the right bulbs. I have a 55 watt retrofit by AHSupply in my standard hood light strip, it is fine, could be a bit brighter, 2 x 36 might have been better.
What sort of hood do you have now? AHSupply.com has great retrofit kits and the reflector is outstanding. It really boosts the light that gets into the tank.
I have this hood (http://customsealife.com/f_smartlite.htm) tossed someplace,and I can order this replacement pc (http://customsealife.com/l_powercompact.htm) ,should I have the 67 or 88K,buy the way it's a 24 inch hood..
thanks again