plants effect on pH

[chilligirl]

So I just tested my water for the first time in a few days, and my pH is up from 7.0 to 7.6!!! :eek3: Fish are all fine, fwiw. Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, nitrates down from trace to not registering.

The only thing that's changed since the last time I tested is:

increased lighting
added some live plants
added a pair of kribensis

I'm not doing any CO2 supplementation. So, after mulling it over and thinking about the chemistry of it, it seems most likely that the pH change is due to there being less CO2 in the water since the plants are using it? (which would be supported by my nitrates disappearing).

I'm inclined to shove some more peat moss into my filter, or even mix a bit into the sand around the plant bases, but thought I'd check here first.

What do y'all think? Should I try to bring it back down to 7 using peat moss? Should I just leave it? Is there any way to add more carbon to the water for the plants that doesn't involve pressurized canisters or the DIY setups? I REALLY want to stay low tech at this point...

All of my fish prefer a slightly acidic pH and softer water...

[livingword26]

Your Ph is fine, if you want to add some carbon without co2 then try some Excel.

http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18480/si1380295/cl1/seachem_flourish_excel_250_ml?&path=c3684-def-USD-16695%23%23-1%23%23-1%7E%7Eq666c6f7572697368%7E%7Ec3684-def-USD-18477%23%233%23%23j%7E%7Enc3684-def-USD-18480%23%230%23%23e&query=flourish&offset=

http://akamai.edeal.com//images/catalog3684/folder24579/img3041188med.jpg

[rich311k]

I would just leave it alone. I doubt plants would have that effect but anything is possible.

[chilligirl]

thanks, I think I'll try the excel. I'm already using regular Flourish, which has micronutrients, but not carbon.

And, while my pH is alright, I'd prefer to have it at 7.0 or slightly below for the fish I keep, especially as I plan to eventually add in a pair of GBR. It's 7.0 out of the tap, and 7.0 in my goldfish and betta tanks. It was 7.0 in the 90g also until I added the live plants.

[livingword26]

The excel will add carbon for your plants to use, but it won't lower the ph like co2 will.

[chilligirl]

If my pH was 7 until I added the plants though, and I presume the pH went up because the plants are getting carbon via the CO2 in my water (so they're removing CO2, which leads to a higher pH), if I give them an alternate source of carbon, won't my pH go back down? Or, at the very least, respond to natural buffering via peat moss?

If I DID get into DIY CO2, how long would a 2L bottle setup last on a 90G tank before I'd need to refill it? I suppose I could fit it in the area under the tank, with the canister filter and python, I just worry about it getting knocked over (although maybe I could put a bracket on the wall...).

Hmmm...going to go read about DIY CO2. Although, is it even worthwhile with low light? I've only got about 1.6 watts per gallon, although it LOOKS very bright, and it's all HO lighting...

[FtwayneFish]

man im the first to post a answer to your co2 ?. you going to get alot of answers lmao. I did.

heres the basics you need to answer you ? -- im sure your going to read everything you find too.

but it only works with a combo. light,co2,ferts. if one of those is outta whack look out for alage.

and on 90g, a pressurized system is best.
on a 90g you'd need like 5-6 2L's

[chilligirl]

well, the more I read about CO2 in general, and especially the DIY setups, the more I want to run screaming, lol. It just sounds WAY too complicated, time consuming, and easy to mess up, for me.

So, I guess the question is, will Flourish Excel be an adequate replacement for CO2 in my tank?

Also, can someone provide a link to an explanation of the relationship between plants and algae? I don't quite understand it. It seems to me that algae thrives on the same things plants do (light and nutrients), as evidenced by my goldfish tank, where plants that aren't eaten thrive (despite pretty low light), and algae grows in abundance!

[fjf888]

Your pH went up because your plants have used whatever ambient CO2 was in the water. The reduction in CO2 in your water increased your pH. Once CO2 is gone certain plants can convert bicarbonates to carbon, the risk here is without a water changes you could have a massive pH drop due to reduced buffering compacity. That will kill fish. I would consider that unlikely, but possible. pH changes caused by CO2 should have little to no effect on your fish, as fish are not as sensitive to pH changes caused by CO2.

With a 90 gallon tank you will be buying an extreme amount of Flourish Excel to keep the carbon up. Also, the organic carbon in Flourish Excel will not change the pH, like CO2.

I think at 1.6 WPG in HO that may translate to about 2wpg overall, sufficient light for a lot of plants. You really have the option of using pressurized CO2 or not using CO2 at all. See the following link for more guidance in this regard- http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html

If the pH bothers you, Peat will help reduce the pH. I had the same issue when I upgraded my lighting and added plants without CO2. My pH went from 7.2-8.0. I decided to go the pressurized CO2 route on my 72g. It has worked out well for me, but the plants grow like mad. I bring cuttings (some a foot long) every week to my LFS. The advantage to low CO2 is 6-10x slower growth, less maintenance, less fertilizing, less work. I think you can pull it off without an algae problem in your current setup. If you were at 3wpg you would have to go to pressurized CO2.

Hope this helps

Fred

[chilligirl]

Fred - thanks that does help, and is very consistent with what the plant gurus at my lfs said :)

I just picked up some Excel and some more plants. I got the following:

- a very nice dwarf lily, it's called "red tiger"
- hygrophila polysperma (green)
- hygrophila rosa. (tropical sunset)
- anubius barteri
- some variety of cryptocorne that's very pretty reddish verigated leaves
- some variety of grass

So, now to go and do a big water change, totally rescape my tank, plant the new stuff, replant the other stuff, then take a pic and post it :)

[chilligirl]

whew - that was a lot of work! I must be doing alright though, because I was pleased to find that my val. is putting out runners and spreading, as is my crypto. My swords have lots of new leaves too.

So, everything's moved around, all the new stuff is planted. I couldn't move the silk plant/log decoration, because my kribs moved their fry inside of it I think. It's hollow, and I can't really see in there, but they're guarding it super intensely, the female isn't coming out at all, just snatching food from the openings, and the male keeps making a funny little head movement...I guess we'll see in a few more days.

Anyway, I'll post a pic tomorrow!

[fjf888]

Sounds like you are off to a good start, and with your fish spawning the water must be fine (empirical evidence that your pH change is not affecting your fish). The Hygro will grow well without CO2 and should fill out the tank nicely. The fact your other plants are growing well too is further proof you do not need CO2 injection. You may want to get a book by Diana Walstad called the Ecology of a Planted Aquarium. It is an excellent guide to setting up a planted tank without CO2 injection, although it is a bit of a scientific read.

Have fun

Fred

[Squawkbert]

The Hygros will be enough of a sponge to keep algae at bay, you'll eventually (probably) wind up wanting to get rid of them as other plants fill in (you'll get sick of pulling it out by the pound every week).

Excel is going to be expensive for a 90g in the long run, even in the gallon bottles. I'd go to RexGrigg.com and have a look at his regulators and find a cheap CO2 source locally (there are pros & cons to owning/renting your own CO2 bottle - I've probably posted a listing either here or at APC). You are right that DIY isn't much of an option for a tank that big. I run 2x4L DIY on my 46g tank and that's barely enough CO2 w/ almost no surface agitation.

You have, at most, 1.6WPG as HO is approximately equal to PC.

I second the advice to read Walstad's book, especially as your current lighting is right in the NPT range. The book is well worth owning even if you prefer a higher tech approach to your PT.

I'm also glad to hear things are growing and am looking forward to pics.

[chilligirl]

thanks for all the advice. I will check out DW's book - I saw it recommended on the link earlier in this thread also. After much reading, particularly a lot of Tom Barr's stuff, I've decided to aim for a natural planted tank, with the small difference that I WILL still do (minimal) water changes (10% weekly), and dose with Excel every second day.

The plants are doing well. The crypts are getting new leaves, the val is spreading, the swords have lots of new leaves. Some have broken or damaged leaves, but they were that way when I got them, and I'm confident they'll get better over time.

Here are some pics of my plants and tank, and I'd love an ID on the one crypt and the grass if anyone could:

Here's the whole tank (the silk plants will come out once the other stuff fills out a bit)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030278.jpg

Front left corner. The pink stuff is Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' - I really like it and hope it does well. The green just in behind the driftwood is regular hygrophila polysperma, and my Angel's, little buggers, are quite intent on eating it! On the driftwood is an anubias, I don't know which variety, and some javamoss. In the foreground is a pretty little variety of crypt I picked up that the lfs couldn't identify.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030280.jpg

This is behind the driftwood, you can see some vallasneria gigantea, and some cryptocrne willisii
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030284.jpg

A different shot of the pink hygro, and my pig angel eating it :(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030293.jpg

My big sword (echinodorus blehri), with some smaller ones in the back. I potted the large one because my pleco wouldn't leave it alone. It's not in great shape, but the roots are doing well and there are new leaves coming in, so it should come around.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030288.jpg

some more swords, and a few crypt. willisii
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030330.jpg

Regular hygro and a coconut shell cave with java moss
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030329.jpg

anubias - anyone know what variety this is?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030368.jpg

My favourite plant in the tank, a dwarf lily - the lfs called it a "red tiger", anyone know what it's proper name is?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030340.jpg

A couple shots of the mystery crypt, which is quite pretty, IMO (anyone know what this is?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030370.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030374.jpg

And a picture of the mystery grass (ID please?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/chilliwackpitbull/P1030375.jpg

So, that's my tank and plants. Constructive criticism on plants and arrangments appreciated. I SUCK at gardening, lol, and I'm sure that extends to the aquatic variety also. My goal is to eventually have big bunchy plants on the side, some val along the back, and a nice little carpet of short foreground plants in the front and middle.

[yourchoice]

I think if you pulled the rocks out you might see the Ph go down rather than up.The Red Lily might survive but might require C02 to do well.

Go to the Rex Grigg site and you can learn how mix your own ferts and save 90% of your money.Much more.

A more common plan is to fed ferts during the week then do a larger water change 35-50% to rebalance the water.Its matter of finding the right balance of ferts that the individual tanks require.

[chilligirl]

I think if you pulled the rocks out you might see the Ph go down rather than up.The Red Lily might survive but might require C02 to do well.

The rock's been in there since I started the tank just under two months ago, and it's just since I added the plants that the pH went up, so I don't think the rock is affecting anything.

I checked the pH (and everything else) again this evening, and it's still 7.4, despite my adding more peat to the filter, although I'm getting a nice amber color to the water starting now :)

I'm thinking I may get a kit and test my kH and gH. Our city water is much harder in the winter months than the spring and summer, although pH is 7.0. I'm wondering if it's got more buffering capacity when it's harder, and rises naturally when left to sit, or due to the surface agitation? hmmm...

Regardless, the fish seem to be doing very well, and the plants seem to be also so far, so I guess it's alright. I noticed when I was looking tonight that they pink hygro is showing some new growth starting, and some of my crypts have new leaves.

I do worry about the lily. It's taking root well (I've only got the bulb 1/3 covered in the substrate, but the roots climb around the bulb and into the sand), but it's looking a bit fluffy/fuzzy (clear stuff) right at the base of the stem, where it sits on the bulb. I can't pick it off without risking knocking the plant off the bulb. I suspect it is the start of rot :( I'll keep an eye on it.

As for ferts, I'm only dosing with the Excel every other day and trace elements once or twice per week. I figure the fish supply the macros. I'm not at all interested in daily dosing if I can avoid it. Nor am I keen to be doing big water changes every week - with a larger tank that's a pain. Even using the python, taking 10% and refilling it takes about half an hour. Add in stirring the sand, cleaning the intakes, pruning for dead leaves and whatnot, checking the canister for any large debris, etc., and it gets pretty time consuming, as I'm sure y'all know!

As it is, between cleanup, replanting uprooted plants, feeding, fish checks, equipment checks, water tests, etc. on the three tanks, I'm spending at least an hour a day taking care of all my fishies.

The tank that actually takes the most maintenance is my goldfish tank - they're so messy! But that's a whole different topic :)

[livingword26]

Have you tested your tap water after it has set out a couple of days, or after you have ran a bubbler in it for a few hours? If you haven't try it. That will let you know for sure if your ph change is due to static co2 alone.

[chilligirl]

Have you tested your tap water after it has set out a couple of days, or after you have ran a bubbler in it for a few hours? If you haven't try it. That will let you know for sure if your ph change is due to static co2 alone.

No, and I'm going to do that next, to see. I'll also test my goldfish tank and betta tank to see if their pH is up. They were both 7.0 from the end of last January until the last time I tested them, which was a couple months ago. I don't test the water in those tanks anymore, unless I suspect a problem. Just do weekly maintenance.

[gimincorp]

Presence of Hornwort among plants is known to raise PH

[chilligirl]

Presence of Hornwort among plants is known to raise PH

I don't have hornwort?

Since I've been dosing with Excel, giving an alternate carbon source, and added more peat to the filter, my pH is slowly coming down again.